Writing in cRPG's -- a case study (Mass Effect)

[Volourn]

"Calling Mass Effect a "cRPG" is fundamentally incorrect. It was clearly designed to be a console-oriented game."

 

No. It's a CRPG. Quality is irrelevant. That's actually what it is. It's also part of the 'sub genre' of ARPG ala Twitcher, Divine Divinity, and Vampire Bloodlines.

 

\P.S. Consoles ARE computers. And, ME is also on PCs so even if you go stupid console vs PC it STILL fits the CRPG  genre. Nice try, though.

 

 This idea that only good games can be CRPGs is dumb. Have we not forgotten trash like POR:ROMD or Descent to Undermountain?

Edited August 10, 2014 by Volourn

[Orogun01]

 

At least no one has mentioned Bioshock Infinite or Last of Us.

 

You just did.

 

Ken Levine at least is a very good writer of the video game class, but you do really have to compare like with like. He has played to his strengths from movie/ TV experience and writes straight linear stories, he doesn't have to weld multiple decisions into a coherent whole- and even with the linearity his story endings have tended to be somewhat underwhelming or off kilter, except maybe Thief. And derivative of one another too, of course.

 

Bioware's only real problem with ME was the lack of a coherent plan, or not sticking to the plan. Plus, as I always say, ME2 did not do the set up job that was required and left far too much for ME3 to do, leading to the dei ex machina.

 

Since that cat is out of the bag, can someone do an analysis of the TLoU? I haven't played it (probly never will) but i'm interested to hear opinions of whether if it is as good as they say or if it just like Bioshock Infinite (overhyped)

[PrimeJunta]

Bioware's only real problem with ME was the lack of a coherent plan, or not sticking to the plan. Plus, as I always say, ME2 did not do the set up job that was required and left far too much for ME3 to do, leading to the dei ex machina.

 

I would add "general lack of imagination." One of the poins of space opera is that there are wild, exotic, and above all different planets and species to discover. Almost all of ME's locations looked frankly boring, and the visual style was entirely uniform across the whole galaxy. I can find a lot more variety in a five-minute walk around my neighborhood!

 

I also thought most of the species--especially the council species--were not all that interesting. The cool and exotic ones--hanar, rachni--were on the sidelines. I liked what they did with the geth in ME2 and to a lesser extent in ME3 where they overdid the 'they're just misunderstood' pathos thing.

 

These are second-tier problems, though, compared to the general lack of consistency and overall plan you point out.

[PrimeJunta]

It's a shame this only came out now. Would've saved me some typing...

 

http://youtu.be/S5_mHgxSRzQ

[Endrosz]

I would add "general lack of imagination." One of the poins of space opera is that there are wild, exotic, and above all different planets and species to discover. Almost all of ME's locations looked frankly boring, and the visual style was entirely uniform across the whole galaxy. I can find a lot more variety in a five-minute walk around my neighborhood!

 

I also thought most of the species--especially the council species--were not all that interesting.  ...

 

Precisely what I wanted to say in a long post yesterday. I canceled it, because it was becoming a long essay that no one would've read.  The races, the plot, the Reapers themselves (War of the Worlds again?), all lack imagination.

 

Stanislaw Lem wrote better stuff 40 years ago.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Endrosz

[PrimeJunta]

He did but he didn't really do space opera. Solaris wouldn't have made for a great shooter. I think space opera needs more familiarity than Lem, which includes relatable races.

 

However I think if the races show less diversity in culture and behavior than, say, Europeans--a single, small, geographically distinct cluster of cultures--then they're doing something wrong. The species of the KOTORs were a good deal more interesting already, and I'm sure you could do even better if you tried.

[Bos_hybrid]

The problem with comparing game writing to books, is that a book is written by one writer with a vision(hopefully), a game will have multiple writers and said writers come and go. It's why many games can seem inconsistent. Then you have to remember, in the grand scheme of game making, the lead writer is several seats down the pecking order concerning decision making for the game.

 

Drew Karpyshyn was the lead writer of ME1, ME2 he shared it with Mac Walters, who became lead for ME3. That's also not taking into consideration all the other writers that put their finger into the pie.

 

The inconsistencies in the ME series as much to do with writer changes, as the quality of the writers.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Bos_hybrid

[Zoraptor]

 

Bioware's only real problem with ME was the lack of a coherent plan, or not sticking to the plan. Plus, as I always say, ME2 did not do the set up job that was required and left far too much for ME3 to do, leading to the dei ex machina.

 

I would add "general lack of imagination." One of the poins of space opera is that there are wild, exotic, and above all different planets and species to discover. Almost all of ME's locations looked frankly boring, and the visual style was entirely uniform across the whole galaxy. I can find a lot more variety in a five-minute walk around my neighborhood!

 

I also thought most of the species--especially the council species--were not all that interesting. The cool and exotic ones--hanar, rachni--were on the sidelines. I liked what they did with the geth in ME2 and to a lesser extent in ME3 where they overdid the 'they're just misunderstood' pathos thing.

 

 

I give them some allowance for the general imagination stuff, hardly any games are genuinely imaginative in that way. And on a practical level doing animations can be a huge amount of work if you cannot do mocap, so non human template stuff does have problems.

 

The lack of variation in visual styles is a definite though, nothing quite like going to an exotic locale on another species' planet and it looking just about identical to all the other species' architecture.

[TheChris92]

I'll say this for BioWare, the Starchild was both one of the laziest and most confounding and illogical explanations they could possibly have come up with for the corner they painted themselves into.  In a twisted way, it's quite an achievement to both use a deus ex machina and at the same time make said deus ex machina use such unbelievably, ridiculously, baffling circular reasoning.  It's quite a triumph of mind-bogglingly stupid writing.  Even Kojima probably had to tip his hat to them and think to himself "even on my best day, I'm not sure I could have come up with a more ridiculous twist".

 

Edit:  Either that, or Kojima must have thought to himself "challenge accepted".

Not even the power of Nanomachines, son, could possibly spin logic out of that drivel.

[TheChris92]

 

 

At least no one has mentioned Bioshock Infinite or Last of Us.

 

You just did.

 

Ken Levine at least is a very good writer of the video game class, but you do really have to compare like with like. He has played to his strengths from movie/ TV experience and writes straight linear stories, he doesn't have to weld multiple decisions into a coherent whole- and even with the linearity his story endings have tended to be somewhat underwhelming or off kilter, except maybe Thief. And derivative of one another too, of course.

 

Bioware's only real problem with ME was the lack of a coherent plan, or not sticking to the plan. Plus, as I always say, ME2 did not do the set up job that was required and left far too much for ME3 to do, leading to the dei ex machina.

 

Since that cat is out of the bag, can someone do an analysis of the TLoU? I haven't played it (probly never will) but i'm interested to hear opinions of whether if it is as good as they say or if it just like Bioshock Infinite (overhyped)

 

I would gladly oblige to write up something later today.

[PrimeJunta]

The inconsistencies in the ME series as much to do with writer changes, as the quality of the writers.

 

This is true. It's also why I think that if BioWare really cared about writing, they would have at the very least "franchise czars" who are tasked with maintaining overall setting and story consistency and continuity in each franchise. Otherwise they'll just go all over the place.

[sorophx]

Since that cat is out of the bag, can someone do an analysis of the TLoU? I haven't played it (probly never will) but i'm interested to hear opinions of whether if it is as good as they say or if it just like Bioshock Infinite (overhyped)

in short:

**** gameplay (if you don't like Uncharted), great production values, **** story, great writing (dialogues are unbelievably good in some instances) and good voice acting to complement the writing. 

 

overall, I would recommend playing through it at least once, but make no mistake: this is not a game you enjoy beating, it's a chore you have to endure to get all the interaction between the main characters.

 

if you like Uncharted, though, you'll love everything about The Last of Us

Edited August 11, 2014 by sorophx

[PrimeJunta]

I give them some allowance for the general imagination stuff, hardly any games are genuinely imaginative in that way. And on a practical level doing animations can be a huge amount of work if you cannot do mocap, so non human template stuff does have problems.

 

I don't really have a problem with the species being humanoid and "relatable," that is after all pretty standard space opera fare. I thought however that it was a missed opportunity to have all of the Council races be culturally so similar. Take the Asari, for example. Yeah, they were female-only, had the maiden-mother-crone... uh, matriarch lifecycle, and lived really long, but they lived in shopping malls, operated a stock market, had military units organized among familiar Earthly lines, and so on and so forth. Basically just transplanted standard American capitalist/consumerist cultural assumptions there with surface exoticism added for flavor. It would've been a lot more interesting if someone had taken the trouble to think about how a thousand-year lifespan with mothers having a string of children across the centuries would shape a culture, and come up with some more interesting ways to organize it.

 

The same goes for the other races too. I could go on with specific nits to pick, but I don't know if there's any point.

 

(It is also true that a lot of sci-fi in general shares these problems.)

[Gromnir]

 

I give them some allowance for the general imagination stuff, hardly any games are genuinely imaginative in that way. And on a practical level doing animations can be a huge amount of work if you cannot do mocap, so non human template stuff does have problems.

 

I could go on with specific nits to pick, but I don't know if there's any point.

 

(It is also true that a lot of sci-fi in general shares these problems.)

 

 well on that we agree. particularly in a game where you may have other races be playable or romanceable (*shudder*), having truly alien is not a particular pragmatic route. 

 

ME were, as most sci-fi is, character driven. that fact is one reason why most aliens in sci-fi is little more than exotic humans, and that is not a bad thing in such sci-fi. most o' the plot and setting nit picks is revealing a clear misunderstanding o' just what kinda story bioware were telling. we ain't been all that impressed with bio writing efforts for some time, but whenever we see multi-page denunciations o' plot and setting, we know that the critic is full o' hokum.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

does anyone here know Michael Moor****´s books (Elric) where you have the feeling the author does not know where the story ends because it feels totaly random at times while you read it. It feels so natural and yet so random that is is like reality. In the later bioware stuff it´s more like a script of a streamlined hollywood movie where you have the vip´s and some events and an end and now they try to fill in a story that is action, romance and some "mystery" but all seems to be forced. Like a disney land somehow and dont make someone totaly screw things up because that would be to complex later on.... we need to get to that end you know....and this one has to survive and this and that...bla bla

 

When i think about bioware today i see them on the path becoming an interactive movie studio. 

 

Characters needs to be natural and things can get pretty messy if you write tales that have persons in it who are influental and "realistic".

All this everyone must be a vip bores me to death. It´s like a normal human being cant be something unique or interesting because a personality has to have vip status...

 

In the first alien movie you dont have to much interaction and everything feels natural because the people are just ordinary in their field + their unique personalitys and yet everyone of them support the story 100 % and without a single one it all could have failed to work. Just an example that you dont need vip´s everywhere to create a great story if you can write a good story...not that alien was a monster story but it felt so natural and realistic it was scary!

 

edit: that guy´s name is realy moorc**k! so it is not my fault....

 

Personally I believe Moorc*ck is one of the few writers whom does not have to have internal consistency and coherence in his work, largely because the stream of conciousness he writes in and the nature of his multiverse is fluid, and influenced by belief, dreams, thoughts and the various powers whom may have arisen from these ideas. I think that the short story concerning Earl Aubec and the introduction to the Knight of Swords especially illustrate this, though all of his multiverse does to some extent, even in Hawkmoon's alternate earth one can undo death, change reality and travel to alternate dimensions. Anything is possible, chaos will eventually win and reality is ever so fragile.

 

However to me it is usually his characters, be they Champions Eternal or not, around whom the stories are centred. And they remain very human, realistic, and act and react according to their personality, environment or perspective, rather than serving as clumsy caricatures whose only purpose is to move the plot forward. Even though the protagonists are largely metaphors, they live, breathe and bring their own truth to the novels often shaping reality as they see fit, or ushering in new ages and beliefs that they may not be comfortable with but do believe in.

 

Personally i'm very fond of this approach and believe that most settings can benefit if their characters act in a believably human and personal manner, rather than acting illogically for the benefit of a plot that loses more and more coherence as it progresses. Just a personal preference however.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Nonek

[NWN_babaYaga]

@Nonek

I couldnt have said it any better then you. Even in my native language i guess. And i agree that his interconnected tales of protagonists are so open to anything possible that it might be a reason why he doesnt seems to care where the guys ends up. During my read of Elric i always asked myself why do i read that... i mean that guy wasnt realy likeable, the whole tale is one tragedy after another (but disguised for him) and his ongoing suffering in detail was more depressing then interesting and the only reason i kept going was to find out if he finds what he is looking for in his "heart". Later in the book I learned to understand his thinking, his very few feelings and wished him just die! And once it ended.... i was so upset at Moorcoc*s honesty how he wrote the only ending possible and thought this book is just there to say "hey see f*** you" thats how it is! No excuses and no mercy and i write realistic events in an unrealistic world/ worlds.

 

And that the plot moves the people is something i dont like too. It´s like a hidden hand telling people that senseless thoughts and illogical behaviour is the way to move forward. Plotholes just sucks and it´s like being cheated imo.

[ManifestedISO]

 

Since that cat is out of the bag, can someone do an analysis of the TLoU? I haven't played it (probly never will) but i'm interested to hear opinions of whether if it is as good as they say or if it just like Bioshock Infinite (overhyped)

 

 

Infinite is like a hot dog with squirt cheese and pickles, drizzled with dark chocolate and wrapped in water-colored wax paper. They make you eat six in a row, too, with no beverage. And if it causes heartburn in the form of ironic confusion and vertigo, no purple pill will quell the flames of Infinite. Plasmids were sorta fun, though. 

 

It's not possible to have a more opposite experience with The Last of Us. It contains a specific variety in gameplay, where each map and activity feels different and more sinister/relaxing. The immediacy is hard to explain, driven by scarce resources and ammunition--if you don't craft molotov ****tails, shivs, and nail bombs, your meager supply of bullets will just piss-off the infected and enrage corrupt human foes. The story's writing is bonkers. Nothing and no one are what they seem at first, especially the protagonists. Ellie's dialogue and monologue alone are worth the price, and combined with the Remastered textures and audio, the whole thing becomes an experience.    

[Malekith]

Dante Alighieri > Goethe > Salvatore > Weiss & Hickman > Gaider > Avellone

Remove the first two as they have nothing in common with the others, then put Avellone first. The rest are in the correct order.(not that any of them is exceptionaly good as a novelist)