RPG Codex's Top 70 PC RPGs

Undecaf · May 16, 2014

On 5/16/2014 at 10:51 AM, Slinky said:

On 5/16/2014 at 10:38 AM, Undecaf said:

On 5/15/2014 at 4:58 PM, KaineParker said:
Morrowind is pretty over rated. Most people seem to be forgetting about the terrible mechanics, and I can confirm from recent experience that missing some dude with a great-sword right in front of you isn't very fun.

I actually liked the mechanics better than what was in the later games. There was a lack of visual response, but the underlying mechanic about failing and succeeding felt good to me because the the action was more about the character and his strengths and shortcomings (in a more meaningful manner than simple damage multipliers) than about how well I was able to control him. It felt more of an RPG and less of an action game.

True enough, but a system like that works way better on a top down view game than on a first person. I haven't personally seen more boring melee combat system than Morrowind's, even NWN's horrible combat felt more engaging.

It does work better top down, but I had no problems with it in first person either. I felt it much more intriguing than the later iterations despite its obvious flaws (that are - imo - more about visual feedback than the actual mechanics). The presentation was, in my experience, trumped by the mechanics.

I never got into NWN because it was indeed horrible; but I did have some fun with Morrowind (even lately with a new replay going on).

HoonDing · May 16, 2014

The best thing Bethseda published was Hunted: Demon's Forge. Also inXile's magnum opus.

Fearabbit · May 16, 2014

On 5/16/2014 at 2:32 PM, Drudanae said:
The best thing Bethseda published was Hunted: Demon's Forge. Also inXile's magnum opus.

Is that sarcasm? I haven't played the game but it got pretty bad reviews. It looked pretty cool though.

But yeah, I remember now, Hunted was the reason I was wary of Tides of Numenera at first, exactly because Hunted looked great and then got bad reviews. Let's hope Tides of Numenera won't end up the same way (especially since I backed it).

By the way, it will be very interesting to see whether all those new Kickstarter-funded RPGs will make the list in the next years, and whether they'll get a good ranking. I have high hopes for Divinity: Original Sin, Tides of Numenera and of course Pillars of Eternity. And Wasteland 2 is apparently excellent already, but it's not my cup of tea I think.

TheChris92 · May 16, 2014

Hunted is an awful game. If spunk-gargle-wee-wee realistic shooters would have a fantasy equivalent then that would be it.

bussinrounds · May 16, 2014

On 5/16/2014 at 10:18 AM, Mor said:

On 5/14/2014 at 9:39 PM, Drowsy Emperor said:
Bear in mind that list isn't exactly cRPG's only e.g. Jagged Alliance is great game classic but cRPG? I don't know what the guys at the codex has been taking, but even the weakest most hyped bioware Action-RPG is better

Gameplay wise, JA2 has a lot more in common with RPGs I grew up with (D&D Gold Box games, ect..) than mashing awesome buttons/popping moles behind cover.. Plus it has RPG elements also (stats,character progression,inventories..)

I guess if it had some cinematic sex scenes, it would be more worthy ?

Drowsy Emperor · May 16, 2014

Defining RPG's is a fools errand these days when everything has some form of character progression.

That said I was under the impression that there was a particular tactical squad game subgenre of general strategy games, like Silent Storm, Fallout Tactics, Gorky 17 etc that are not considered RPG's.

HiddenX · May 16, 2014

By this definition Jaggd Alliance is certainly a CRPG:

C3: Checks against character stats and/or character abilties/skills are necessary to make progress and finish the game

Definition of a CRPG (V1.00)

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The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors.
Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their necessary Must Have conditions fulfilled to achieve the (minimal) CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has related Should Have conditions, the reviewer should make a comment if a Should Have condition is not fulfilled.

So we have these scenarios to reflect the broadness of the genre:

At least one Must Have condition is violated => the game is not a CRPG.
All Must Have conditions fulfilled => the game is at least CRPG'ish or a CRPG light.
All Must Have and some Should Haves conditions are fulfilled => the game is a CRPG that needs to be qualified with further tags and comments.
If all necessary Must Have and sufficient Should Have conditions are fulfilled there's no further discussion necessary => the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.

I. A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
Describes ways to change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

Must Have
C1: you can control and roleplay one (=Avatar) or more (=Party) unique characters (-> not only uniform units)
C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (-> e.g. through an in game value (usually exp. points) gained by quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
C3: Checks against character stats and/or character abilties/skills are necessary to make progress and finish the game
C4: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
Should Have
C5: you can create your characters
C6: the player needs preplanning for the development of the character(s)
C7: the primary means of problem solving, gameworld interaction and overcoming challenges is the tactical use of character/party skills/abilities (-> the player's physical coordination skills are secondary)

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

Must Have
E1: your character(s) can interact with the gameworld and find new locations by exploring.
E2: your character(s) can find items that can be collected in an inventory (-> there have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters.)
E3: your character(s) can find information sources (-> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
Should Have
E4: there are NPCs in the game
E5: you can choose a path (-> there is at least some branching)
E6: your character(s) can manipulate the game world in some way (-> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
E7: the gameworld can affect your character(s) (-> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
E8: there are initially inaccessible areas in the gameworld that can only be reached by enhancing your characters' abilities, solving quests or puzzles (-> e.g. unlock locked areas, overcome obstacles, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

Must Have
S1: your character(s) can get information from information sources (-> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
S2: your character(s) can follow quests (-> there is at least one main quest)
S3: your character(s) can progress through connected events and play their role
Should Have
S4: the story is influenced by your decisions and your characters' actions and stats/abilities/skills.
S5: your character(s) can interact with information sources (-> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
S6: your character(s) can make choices in those interactions
S7: at least some of these choices have consequences
S8: advancing in the story requires thinking of the player (-> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat is influenced by elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

Should Have
F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (-> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
F3: Combat should provide some challenge (-> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

Hints:

A game that fulfills conditions in the categories Character and Exploration but not in Story could be a Dungeon Crawler or a Rogue-Like.
A game that fulfills conditions in the categories Exploration and Story but not in Character could be an Adventure game, a Strategy game or a Shooter.
A game that fulfills conditions in the categories Character and Story but not in Exploration could be a Sim game or a Linear CRPG.

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[spoiler=Setting: ]

Fantasy
Historical
Modern
Post-apoc
Sci-fi
Steampunk
Technofantasy
Real World

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[spoiler=III. (Optional) Nice to Have: 115/115 = 100%]
[spoiler=i. Character Development (33/33 = 100%)]
1. Choice (13/13)

You can name your characters.
You can choose a gender.
You can choose looks or voice.
You can choose or create through play your own class, profession or race.
You can choose traits, alignment or disposition.
You can choose abilities.
You can choose spells.
You can modify primary stats.
Lots of different equipment is available.
Lots of different spells or abilities are available.
Abilities can unlock or block others or branch.
Character classes or development paths can be changed during the game.
You can have pets as party members.

2. Interdependence (6/6)

(Story) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
(Story) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available dialogue options.
(Story) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
(Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available paths through the game world.
(Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
(Combat) Combat can be avoided due to stats (-> e.g. enemies flee.)

3. Interactivity (6/6)

You can create combos with spells or abilities.
Your character's stats can be modified by using spells or abilities.
Your character's afflictions can be cured by using spells or abilities.
You can rest or sleep.
Stats can limit in some way what you can equip or carry.
You can control party members or pets like your main character.

4. Immersion (8/8)

You need to specialize (-> can't have everything.)
You can create or choose a background story for your character.
You can tweak your character lots of times over the whole game.
You can wear normal clothes, not only armor.
Factions provide prizes for your deeds (-> e.g. houses, medals, ranks, …)
Magic is in the game in some form.
Your characters can be afflicted with negative status effects (-> e.g. diseases, fatigue, etc.)
Your characters can eat or drink.

[spoiler=ii. Exploration (29/29 = 100%)]
1. Choice (4/4)

You can follow different paths to reach a goal.
You can reasonably go where you want.
You can return to previously visited locations.
There are few artificial borders, rare level loading.

2. Interdependence (6/6)

(Character) Char development choices can affect available paths through the game world.
(Character) Char development choices can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
(Story) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
(Story) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
(Story) You can visit and make use of social locations (-> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
(Combat) Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.

3. Interactivity (10/10)

You can collect items (-> there is an inventory.)
You can trade items for currency and better equipment.
You can interact with items.
You can break or destroy items.
You can repair items.
You can move items.
You can combine or disaggregate items.
You can gather pieces of flora or fauna for later use.
You can craft equipment, spells or items (e.g. alchemy).
Inventory size is limited.

4. Immersion (9/9)

There is a place you can call home.
You can explore lots of unique, beautiful and interesting locations.
Locations can evolve or change (-> e.g. town / destroyed town)
There are non-hostile creatures (-> e.g. wildlife)
Types of creatures make sense in the area they are encountered in.
Creatures are wandering persistently (-> no random encounters).
Looting makes sense (no shield on a dead wolf.)
Time is measured (-> e.g. there is a day/night cycle).
Time affects the game world (-> e.g. some things are only available at night).

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[spoiler=iii. Story (29/29 = 100%)]
1. Choice (6/6)

You can reasonably do what you want when you want to do it (-> quest order doesn't matter much.)
Some quests depend on each other.
Some quests rule others out.
Quests can be solved in more than one way.
You can join factions, though not all at the same time.
You can make moral choices (or romance choices).

2. Interdependence (7/7)

(Character) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
(Character) Char development choices can affect available dialogue options.
(Character) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
(Exploration) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
(Exploration) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
(Exploration) You can visit and make use of social locations (-> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
(Combat) Combat can be avoided through dialogue.

3. Interactivity (6/6)

Dialogue is fleshed out (-> there are multiple options in one conversation).
There is more than one game ending.
You can have conversations with party members or take care of pets.
There are many side quests.
State of the game changes in accordance with the player's actions.
You can solve or create conflicts between factions.

4. Immersion (10/10)

Lore is provided (-> context, faction rules, laws, history, …)
There are different factions (races, groups, guilds).
NPCs or party members are well developed (-> expansive background stories, etc.)
NPCs or party members interact with each other.
NPCs have schedules.
There are surprises and twists.
The storyline is character-driven (-> character development within the narrative.)
There is a proper ending or sense of closure.
There are memorable antagonists.
Your main character is defined.

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[spoiler=iv. Combat (Meta) (24/24 = 100%)]
1. Character Development (9/9)

Combat can be avoided due to stats (-> e.g. enemies flee).
You can control at least six characters.
Your characters are specialized (-> different battlefield roles).
Enemies are specialized (-> require different tactics.)
Resource management is necessary.
Units have multiple attack options.
Delayed attacks are possible (-> counterattacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.)
Movement-focused special abilities are available.
Units have multiple resistance options (-> e.g. armor, elemental resistance, etc.)

2. Exploration (9/9)

Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.
You can get a good sense of space (-> e.g. there is a grid.)
Combat can start at variable distances.
Directional facing plays a role (-> e.g. more damage from behind, flanking).
Terrain is variable (-> e.g. natural choke points, cover, combat bonuses).
Terrain can be manipulated (-> e.g. you can create barriers).
There are elevation effects (-> e.g. combat bonuses from higher grounds.)
There can be zones or items on the battlefield that reward units who get there in time.
There can be Zones of Danger on the battlefield (-> e.g. environmental damage).

3. Story (6/6)

Combat can be avoided through dialogue.
Combat can have different win scenarios (-> e.g. keep NPC alive, defend town).
Combat can have side objectives aside from "win/loss".
Characters don't die immediately but can be revived during combat.
Decisions on the battlefield have character development consequences.
There are memorable bosses.

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[spoiler=IV. (Informative) General Game Info]
1. Interface

How often is gameplay interrupted with loading? (rarely, sometimes, often)
How would you rate the game's interface? (intuitive, clunky, …)

2. Difficulty

How difficult is the game? (easy, normal, hard)
Can difficulty be adjusted?
How balanced is trading? (good, not-so-good, bad)
How balanced is combat? (good, not-so-good, bad)
How much reloading is necessary to beat the game (little, some, much)
How good is the AI? (good, medium, bad)
How much handholing is there? (little, some, much)

3. Gameplay features

Are there Easter Eggs?
Are there minigames?

4. Exploration

Is Auto-Mapping available?
Is Fast Travelling available?
Are there quest markers?
Is there a quest compass?
How much realism is there? (little, balanced, much)
How much looting is in the game? (little, some, much)

5. Character Development

Are there useless skills?
How would you rate character progression? (fast, balanced, slow)
Is there auto-leveling of some sort?

6. Story

Does the story follow clichéd paths?
How linear is the game? (linear, network-like, non-linear)
How would you rate the suspense? (boring, gripping, fun, …)
Are there pre-selected options (choice is reduced)?

7. Combat

How much fighting is in the game? (little, some, much)
Grinding: Is filler combat necessary to develop your character?

HiddenX · May 16, 2014

More background here:

CRPG: The final (?) definition

Fearabbit · May 17, 2014

On 5/16/2014 at 6:48 PM, Drowsy Emperor said:
That said I was under the impression that there was a particular tactical squad game subgenre of general strategy games, like Silent Storm, Fallout Tactics, Gorky 17 etc that are not considered RPG's.

It's a difficult decision, (and I don't think lists of must-haves and can't-haves are going to be much help).

Wasteland 2 is considered an RPG, yet it's basically a tactical squad strategy game. And I think that if you put Jagged Alliance 2 in a fantasy setting, everyone would call it an RPG.

Personally I think neither of them are "true" RPGs but sometimes, when we talk about RPGs, we just mean that we want character customization options and a setting that pleases us.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think that Baldur's Gate is a true RPG, because you play 6 characters at the same time. For me a true RPG has one player character that you can control and customize. But the lines are blurred and basically... who cares whether a game is or isn't a true RPG?

Volourn · May 17, 2014

A role-playing game is a game where you play a role. Yes, I just called Mario an RPG.

DEAL. WITH, IT.

Gromnir · May 17, 2014

...

every decade or so, some "scientist" claims to have found proof that the soul exists. gots bizarre experiments and quirky formulas n' such. the scientists is very earnest and quite proud of their... proof. hidden's posts above reminds us of such.

HA! Good Fun!

Nonek · May 17, 2014

Though I think your venture is rather vain Mr X, one cannot be anything but impressed by the obvious amount of work that has gone into this. Jolly good show sir.

ShadySands · May 17, 2014

Can a mod please fix those spoiler tags?

licketysplit · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 12:13 AM, Volourn said:

A role-playing game is a game where you play a role. Yes, I just called Mario an RPG.

DEAL. WITH, IT.

This explains a lot.

BruceVC · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 12:13 AM, Volourn said:

A role-playing game is a game where you play a role. Yes, I just called Mario an RPG.

DEAL. WITH, IT.

Volo I know you enjoy getting reactions from people with absurd comments but don't you ever get tired by the complete ridiculousness of what you say?

By your logic then almost every game is an RPG, because in almost every game you have some kind of protagonist and take a role in the game?

Is that really your definition of what an RPG is " a game where you play a role"

So is Battlefield an RPG, because in that game I have a role as a soldier/?

Edited May 17, 2014 by BruceVC

Crusty · May 17, 2014

Laptop guy has no stats = JA 2 not an RPG.

ManifestedISO · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 1:24 AM, ShadySands said:
Can a mod please fix those spoiler tags?

Probably they don't want to spend the 45 minutes it would take.

Tigranes · May 17, 2014

There. No, I am not fixing that thing properly, I need to get out of here before I get any 'What is an RPG?' on my shirt.

Hiro Protagonist II · May 17, 2014

On 5/16/2014 at 6:48 PM, Drowsy Emperor said:

Defining RPG's is a fools errand these days when everything has some form of character progression.

That said I was under the impression that there was a particular tactical squad game subgenre of general strategy games, like Silent Storm, Fallout Tactics, Gorky 17 etc that are not considered RPG's.

Jagged Alliance 2 is part of a sub-genre of RPGs called Tactical Role Playing Games. Much Like Shadowrun Returns and Wasteland 2 that's already been mentioned. It's not a game I automatically refer to as a RPG either. But when looking at similar games in this sub-genre, I can see its inclusion.

sorophx · May 17, 2014

guys, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but... having character progression doesn't make a game an RPG, that's like RPG 101. you all should know better, and you should be ashamed.

story also doesn't make it, nor does exploration. nor the combination of the three.

what makes a game an RPG is the ability to make choices, meaningful choices during the course of the game, choices that will have consequences, that will matter. that's the meat and bones of ay tabletop RPG, and a computer/video game that doesn't have C&C is not an RPG, no matter how you spin it.

deal with it.

BruceVC · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 7:18 AM, sorophx said:

what makes a game an RPG is the ability to make choices, meaningful choices during the course of the game, choices that will have consequences, that will matter. that's the meat and bones of ay tabletop RPG, and a computer/video game that doesn't have C&C is not an RPG, no matter how you spin it.

Thats not a bad post of one definition of an RPG but I want to add to it. An RPG must allow you do adopt a certain playing style of your choice. How could you Role Play if the game doesn't allow this?

Also Romance must be included to be a real RPG ( Thats a joke )

Edited May 17, 2014 by BruceVC

pmp10 · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 7:34 AM, BruceVC said:

On 5/17/2014 at 7:18 AM, sorophx said:

what makes a game an RPG is the ability to make choices, meaningful choices during the course of the game, choices that will have consequences, that will matter. that's the meat and bones of ay tabletop RPG, and a computer/video game that doesn't have C&C is not an RPG, no matter how you spin it.

Thats not a bad post of one definition of an RPG but I want to add to it. An RPG must allow you do adopt a certain playing style of your choice. How could you Role Play if the game doesn't allow this?

You can call them that even when playing a preset role.

You always have limitations imposed on who your character is and what they would do.

Especially in older RPGs that didn't allow for major character alteration and offered no meaningful choices.

BruceVC · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 7:54 AM, pmp10 said:

On 5/17/2014 at 7:34 AM, BruceVC said:

On 5/17/2014 at 7:18 AM, sorophx said:

what makes a game an RPG is the ability to make choices, meaningful choices during the course of the game, choices that will have consequences, that will matter. that's the meat and bones of ay tabletop RPG, and a computer/video game that doesn't have C&C is not an RPG, no matter how you spin it.

Thats not a bad post of one definition of an RPG but I want to add to it. An RPG must allow you do adopt a certain playing style of your choice. How could you Role Play if the game doesn't allow this?

You can call them that even when playing a preset role.

You always have limitations imposed on who your character is and what they would do.

Especially in older RPGs that didn't allow for major character alteration and offered no meaningful choices.

Okay good points. But many of the older RPG always didn't allow meaningful choices as you said so what is the more accurate definition of an RPG?

Edited May 17, 2014 by BruceVC

pmp10 · May 17, 2014

Today there isn't one.

Used to be that the way stats were driving the gameplay was defining RPGs.

That's why too many options would result in a strategy game or maybe a tactical-rpg.

The original formula got boring with it's limited interactivity and so we use the term for almost every game where numbers can be seen.

Fearabbit · May 17, 2014

On 5/17/2014 at 7:18 AM, sorophx said:
what makes a game an RPG is the ability to make choices, meaningful choices during the course of the game, choices that will have consequences, that will matter. that's the meat and bones of ay tabletop RPG, and a computer/video game that doesn't have C&C is not an RPG, no matter how you spin it.

No.

First of all, that's vague and doesn't help anybody. What are meaningful choices? How many of them do you need? Are games like The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us RPGs now? (Or better yet, is the only reason they aren't the fact that their choices aren't meaningful enough, which is highly debatable anyway?)

Second, I vehemently disagree. What's important for an RPG is that you're free to play different types of characters and use various strategies to achieve your goal. For me, that's the meat and bones of an RPG. Not choices like "do you want to burn this city to the ground yes/no", but the choice between playing as a thief or playing as a warrior, and having an underlying system that supports both ways of playing. And stats are helpful here because they differentiate between the different types of characters I can play, and they act as restrictions to what a certain type of character can and can't do.

But like I said, definitions are useless anyway. There will always be exceptions.

RPG Codex's Top 70 PC RPGs

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