Update #77: Art in Alpha

[Gromnir]

Distinctive female armor forms is more of a nod toward the visual gameplay elements, but for me they don't break the immersion so it remains a non issue. It (female-shaped armor) can be successfully explained away through alternate universe cultural aspects (as mentioned earlier), and shouldn't break the verisimilitude as long as the shapes aren't completely ludicrous in form. The issue might matter more if this was a real-world historical simulation. It's not.

 

A better question is, what is your reason for not having it?

 

Agreed.

*groan*

 

is freaking surreal at this point.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

first, as we has now said a half dozen times, the visual differentiation aspect has been quite thoroughly debunked. am not gonna repeat again. just scroll up. so, again, why? don't just repeat somebody else.

 

second, we keeps saying that it is irrational and unreasonable to alter b00b plate because it is sexist, ridiculous and demeaning, but then offer us b00b scale that suffers from same flaws.  am getting a bit sick o' repeating this over and over. more than dozen times... minimum? how long 'fore you folks get it? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I am not convinced with how you debunked it. What about npc, they don't have portraits, you can click their info and see the gender, the only way to find out is through dialog and it would be awkward as **** to start each encounter with I'm a girl/boy. You didn't do a good job of debunking anything tbh...

 

There is something to be said for visual differences in animation.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Sarex

[Gromnir]

 

first, as we has now said a half dozen times, the visual differentiation aspect has been quite thoroughly debunked. am not gonna repeat again. just scroll up. so, again, why? don't just repeat somebody else.

 

second, we keeps saying that it is irrational and unreasonable to alter b00b plate because it is sexist, ridiculous and demeaning, but then offer us b00b scale that suffers from same flaws.  am getting a bit sick o' repeating this over and over. more than dozen times... minimum? how long 'fore you folks get it? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I am not convinced with how you debunked it. What about npc, they don't have portraits, you can click their info and see the gender, the only way to find out is through dialog and it would be awkward as **** to start each encounter with I'm a girl/boy. You didn't do a good job of debunking anything tbh...

 

There is something to be said for visual differences in animation.

 

you mean non-party npcs? you want to know if guardsman #3 is female or male? is that a genuine concern? if is a unique female npc in chain or scale, you can't figure any way to makes her recognizable w/o boob swell? a female name might be too obvious for you? and why should it be important sans dialogue? is no reason you should be able to distinguish the short guy in scale from a woman in scale. eowyn's scene from lotr gots far less impact if the witch-king can see b00b swell from the start, eh? *chuckle* and again, they effective got rid o' female b00b plate, so why is scale different? you ain't making sense.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

you mean non-party npcs? you want to know if guardsman #3 is female or male? is that a genuine concern? if is a unique female npc in chain or scale, you can't figure any way to makes her recognizable w/o boob swell? a female name might be too obvious for you? and why should it be important sans dialogue? is no reason you should be able to distinguish the short guy in scale from a woman in scale. eowyn's scene from lotr gots far less impact if the witch-king can see b00b swell from the start, eh? *chuckle* and again, they effective got rid o' female b00b plate, so why is scale different? you ain't making sense.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Now you are deciding what is important and what isn't... As this is an Iso game with relatively small character models, yeah I guess that boob armor would help. It is you my friend who is not making sense, this whole talking gimmick aside. Also as they only showed one variation of plate, I wouldn't count out boob plate just yet.

[Gromnir]

 

you mean non-party npcs? you want to know if guardsman #3 is female or male? is that a genuine concern? if is a unique female npc in chain or scale, you can't figure any way to makes her recognizable w/o boob swell? a female name might be too obvious for you? and why should it be important sans dialogue? is no reason you should be able to distinguish the short guy in scale from a woman in scale. eowyn's scene from lotr gots far less impact if the witch-king can see b00b swell from the start, eh? *chuckle* and again, they effective got rid o' female b00b plate, so why is scale different? you ain't making sense.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Now you are deciding what is important and what isn't... As this is an Iso game with relatively small character models, yeah I guess that boob armor would help. It is you my friend who is not making sense, this whole talking gimmick aside. Also as they only showed one variation of plate, I wouldn't count out boob plate just yet.

 

actually, as models IS relative small, b00b armour is gonna be less helpful to distinguish than any number o' other more obvious means... such as Names (HA!) and portraits and dialogue n' such. a single character in b00b armour, particularly when moving and in midst o'multiple spell effects, is gonna be largely indistinguishable unless b00bs is extreme anyways... which is just one reason why things like war hammers and swords is being made over-sized. a subtle swell, as most boardies has claimed they is comfortable with, would be utterly pointless.

 

and yes, Gromnir is using his brain to recognize what is and isn't important. might wanna try it. parrot developers even when shown silliness o' such excuses with screenshots and reason is making your "why" seem like little other than slavish recitation. what you is doing is saying a prayer. developer says. you repeat. add an "amen" at the end might help you to distinguish. 

 

oh, and if pronounced b00b plate makes a comeback, we would be thrilled, 'cause then perhaps we could see a return to 2012 when multiple threads was b00b armour battles.  b00b plate angered. b00b scale doesn't. is precisely our issue. makes no sense. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

yes, Gromnir is using his brain to recognize what is and isn't important. might wanna try it. parrot developers even when shown silliness o' such excuses with screenshots and reason is making your "why" seem like little other than slavish recitation. what you is doing is saying a prayer. developer says. you repeat. add an "amen" at the end might help you to distinguish. 

 

Hehehe, you must not have read many of my post if you make that claim.

 

As for scale, wanna make a bet that it will be noticeable without using zoom.

 

You obviously don't have any valid reason for being against boob scale and are just spouting random things.

[Gromnir]

 

yes, Gromnir is using his brain to recognize what is and isn't important. might wanna try it. parrot developers even when shown silliness o' such excuses with screenshots and reason is making your "why" seem like little other than slavish recitation. what you is doing is saying a prayer. developer says. you repeat. add an "amen" at the end might help you to distinguish. 

 

Hehehe, you must not have read many of my post if you make that claim.

 

As for scale, wanna make a bet that it will be noticeable without using zoom.

 

You obviously don't have any valid reason for being against boob scale and are just spouting random things.

 

nope, Gromnir hasn't read many of your posts. we don't feel any poorer for that. as for visibility o' b00b swell, am betting when spell effects is active, and enemies is filling screen, b00b swell will be a largely useless way to distinguish. only time b00b swell will be noticeable is when it won't actual be needed to distinguish. we have reasons. am thinking that is the problem. Gromnir is demanding reason. so few people do.

 

"You obviously don't have any valid reason,"

 

see, now the above applies to you. we have given reasons, observing the difference in how plate and scale is being treated and pointing out, with the visual aid help o' others, that the distinguishing aspect is negligible or non-existent. etc. maybe you prefer to believe obsidian, or you don't think it is an important issue at all, but to claim we don't have valid reasons is to be utter unreasonable and/or irrational.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Bryy]

nm

Edited May 12, 2014 by Bryy

[Silent Winter]

 

we is fighting you on "why"?  you still have not provided one.

But your 'Why' is aimed at people not arguing in this thread (AFAIK) - you're asking why people can say 'no' to boob plate but 'yes' to boob scale - whereas many here are saying 'well, boob-plate is actually ok too so it's 'yes' to both'

Again - I missed the one-sided outrage against boob-plate back then.

 

 a female name might be too obvious for you?

'Cadegund' ? Is that necessarily female? - what about 'Sagani'?

If we were talking Earth-based fantasy and had 'Susan' as a name, that'd be a good point.  But we're not.

 

Having said that - I agree on other points that 'female armour' doesn't necessarily have to have boob-swell.

 

It may or may not be important to display visibly female guards depending on whether or not Obsidian want to emphasise the gender-equality in the PoE world's employment system or just let the player assume an equality or lack thereof.

[Sensuki]

Troll well fed I would say.

[Gromnir]

 

 

we is fighting you on "why"?  you still have not provided one.

But your 'Why' is aimed at people not arguing in this thread (AFAIK) - you're asking why people can say 'no' to boob plate but 'yes' to boob scale - whereas many here are saying 'well, boob-plate is actually ok too so it's 'yes' to both'

Again - I missed the one-sided outrage against boob-plate back then.

 

 a female name might be too obvious for you?

'Cadegund' ? Is that necessarily female? - what about 'Sagani'?

If we were talking Earth-based fantasy and had 'Susan' as a name, that'd be a good point.  But we're not.

 

Having said that - I agree on other points that 'female armour' doesn't necessarily have to have boob-swell.

 

It may or may not be important to display visibly female guards depending on whether or not Obsidian want to emphasise the gender-equality in the PoE world's employment system or just let the player assume an equality or lack thereof.

 

as to the folks in this thread not arguing 'gainst b00b plate? so what? obsidian changed b00b plate in response to community outcry. see the original concept art for cad? they changed 'cause b00b plate were sexist, ridiculous and demeaning. then obsidian gives you b00b scale and all we hear is the chirping o' crickets. the fact we don't see hue and cry 'bout scale or plate is part o' the problem, but thanks for bringing that up once again. 

 

as for cad and sag, they is party npcs, so the issue won't Be an issue, yes? you will know cad is female... which is what we were saying earlier 'bout the ridiculous visual differentiation nonsense. between fact that she is gonna have a different kit than other party npcs even if they have same armour, she will have a different name. honest, this visual differentiation bit is a joke. need a reason to differentiate? why? for most npcs, joinable or otherwise, it won't be an issue. for the infrequent non-party female that happens to be in scale or chain, and needs to be instant recognizable as female (1:100?) you don't think obsidian can come up with a way other than b00b swell? is actual kinda insulting to suggest obsidians is so incompetent. the developers can't come up with an obvious female name if they for some reason think it is important that you know random npc 12 is a female? Lady Nailbiter? whatever. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If I make a party which are all female (main character), Pallegina, Cadegund, Sagani and possibly 2 other unannounced female NPCs. Do I really need to have boob scale for some of my characters?

Edited May 12, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Silent Winter]

as to the folks in this thread not arguing 'gainst b00b plate? so what? obsidian changed b00b plate in response to community outcry. see the original concept art for cad? they changed 'cause b00b plate were sexist, ridiculous and demeaning. then obsidian gives you b00b scale and all we hear is the chirping o' crickets. the fact we don't see hue and cry 'bout scale or plate is part o' the problem, but thanks for bringing that up once again.

I was responding to your "why?" question.

If you have a problem with the lack of outrage - PM the people who wanted no boob-plate and see if they'll come back to champion this cause - personally, I don't care either way, as I said (provided it's not ludicrously huge breasts on the armour or a chainmail bikini).

Obsidian changed it - fair enough.  Doesn't make anyone else's opinion on the matter less valid - just moot.

But the current wiki has the concept art of Cadegund with a protruding chest in her plate - it's still feminised armour and has made room for breasts - http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/thumb/3/3a/Cadegund.png/463px-Cadegund.png so I wouldn't say Obs did a total u-turn there.  Remains to be seen how it'll look in-game.  (Plate on P1 of thread may well be just the male version).

 

as for cad and sag, they is party npcs, so the issue won't Be an issue, yes? you will know cad is female...

Yes - but those were just examples of names in PoE - illustrating that a name won't tell you that they're female - which is what you suggested as an alternative to boobies - just pointing out that it wouldn't work in a fantasy setting

[Sensuki]

t r o l l t i n d

Edited May 12, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Obsidian changed it - fair enough.  Doesn't make anyone else's opinion on the matter less valid - just moot.

But the current wiki has the concept art of Cadegund with a protruding chest in her plate - it's still feminised armour and has made room for breasts - http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/thumb/3/3a/Cadegund.png/463px-Cadegund.png so I wouldn't say Obs did a total u-turn there.  Remains to be seen how it'll look in-game.  (Plate on P1 of thread may well be just the male version).

 

I think it's also best to look at the concept art and notice how the characters are distinguishable without having the need for boobies sticking out.

 

The middle female plate armour below is similar to the male plate armour and both the female and males are easily distinguishable from each other.

 

 

In the below pictures, the females practically have no boobs but still can tell the difference between the two.

 

[Silent Winter]

I think it's also best to look at the concept art and notice how the characters are distinguishable without having the need for boobies sticking out.

 

The middle female plate armour below is similar to the male plate armour and both the female and males are easily distinguishable from each other.

 

Yes, and again I agree that boobies on armour aren't the only way to tell someone apart (though they don't bother me).

In the example shown, the female plate-armour on left and right make room for breasts.  Middle one is less obvious in terms of "I've got breasts" but distinguishes more around the waist.  I'd be happy with any of those.

[Kharador]

Ey! Where is the new update of this week?

[rjshae]

IIRC, most of the supposed outrage at the time was stirred by one of the illustrations showing a top-heavy wearer of plate armor.

 

 

(I think I heard about it indirectly from a news site.)

[Gromnir]

...

 

y 'know, we loathe emoticons, but w/o them it is tough to tell if somebody is trying to be funny, or is suffering from head trauma.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[rdmcnz]

The adventurers I followed in stories had no time for heavy armour, especially how much it slowed them down.

It also feels much less dashing and daring.

 

The design work put into the regional clothing looks fantastic.

 

Is anyone else keen on having their party wear light and medium armour only?

[Elerond]

I found both b00b plates and scales to be poor way to make male and female characters have different visual look. I am not against b00b plates if they have boob swell for both male and female users, but I think they should not be among best armors in game if game also has more functional designs. But I find inclusion of b00b scale to be unnecessary and ridiculous looking way to make male and female characters look different and it also causes me to lose some of my suspension of disbelief.

 

I was quite vocal in my opposition of b00b armors during kickstarter campaign and some months after it and I was quite happy when Obsidian showed their armor designs concepts for PoE and I was some what disappointed when they showed their in engine design for female scale armor, but I found myself in point where I didn't want use any more energy to write about issue, as I am quite sure that developers know that backers have people that think like me and they still felt that breast bulge was best way to differentiate male and female characters. I have some solice from that fact that in engine design looks such that it is hardly noticeable from isometric view, which don't really make it any less disappointing decision.

[Sensuki]

Despite the boob plate I still think BG1 has the best in-game character models of an isometric RPG. Great art style.

[Ineth]

The middle female plate armour below is similar to the male plate armour [...]

 

 

Actually I'd say it's very different. Certainly not an identical form that is merely scaled down to a smaller size.

For one thing, the male armor in those drawings has almost no narrowing at the waist, whereas in the female version the part of the armor around the hips is almost twice as wide as the waist.

 

For what it's worth, I'm totally fine with differentiating the gender of armored characters in the way(s) shown in that picture -- slightly different chest-piece curvature¹ is not necessary to achieve that, although it can help and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

In fact I don't even think that gender-specific armor needs to be as pronounced as in those pictures - a more subtle variation would probably work just as well.

The same goes for scale, chain, or any other form of armor.

 

 

-----

¹ Because lets face it, that's all it would be. The "b00b plate" or "b00b scale" labels that are being incessantly repeated by the detractors of gender-specific armor are pure hyperbole. No one in this thread asked for armor that actually shows the shape of female breasts.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Ineth

[Faerunner]

The art looks absolutely beautiful! The armor looks amazing and the backgrounds are breathtaking. I cannot wait to see the final result! ^^

 

By the by, I know this is a minor thing, but I still love how the women's armor covers their bodies. It does conform to their curves, but doesn't magically expose much more skin and become stripperific while the same armor on men covers nicely. It's so minor and I'm sure you get this a lot, but thank you so much for making armor that looks fantastic and sensible for both genders. ^^

Edited May 13, 2014 by Faerunner

[Sarex]

There you go Gromnir you were even wrong about the boob plate. While they changed the picture of Cadegund to have a less pronounced bulge, it still has it and it is still different from the male plate armor.