Will Pillars of Eternity have better combat system than Dragon Age Origins?

[Volourn]

"Are you joking? Irenicus dungeon in the first hour of gameplay have more enemies types than DAO in the whole game."

 

Are you joking? You can't tell the difference between BG and BG2?

 

And, oh, no.

 

\Please don't lie.

[GrayAngel]

First and for most Dragon Age Origins was remade to make Console Players happy that is whey it combat is not so good for PC players do any of you see PS3/4, X-Box 360/0 as the board for PoE no then it mean that the game will have combat like Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale. So please get sober and try to read about what you want to ask.

[Helz]

 

Ok, are you drunk?

if memory serves well DAO have:

Genlocks

Hurlocks

Ogre

Spiders

Drakes

Dragons

Demons

Abominations

 

That's it. You are trying to tell us all, who played BG that there are no more enemies than that in BG?!

 

 

There were multiple types of every enemy you listed.  Also humans, elves, dwarves, animals, spirits, undead, liches, and werewolves just off the top of my head.   

 

I'd be happy if the combat is as good as DA:O's.  I think it has a good chance to be better thanks to a greater variety of classes and a superior spell list.  I'd love for the game to have really good AI, which I felt was a weak point of DA:O. 

[Quadrone]

 

 

Ok, are you drunk?

if memory serves well DAO have:

Genlocks

Hurlocks

Ogre

Spiders

Drakes

Dragons

Demons

Abominations

 

That's it. You are trying to tell us all, who played BG that there are no more enemies than that in BG?!

 

 

There were multiple types of every enemy you listed.  Also humans, elves, dwarves, animals, spirits, undead, liches, and werewolves just off the top of my head.   

 

I'd be happy if the combat is as good as DA:O's.  I think it has a good chance to be better thanks to a greater variety of classes and a superior spell list.  I'd love for the game to have really good AI, which I felt was a weak point of DA:O. 

 

 

Eh, still quite a few less then what BG had, especially if we count variants of the same base creature.

[nipsen]

In the sense that the combat system is built a bit like a gun made out of clay - that it doesn't really work, but at least gives off a loud bang before it breaks. No, don't want a fighting system like that. In the sense that creatures run around and past parties, before stopping and never moving again, making everything look either like Scooby Doo, or else like a replaying cut of the same boring fighting scene. Not really a fan. In the sense that the party dynamic is cut out, to make the controls work better, and to not make the programming so difficult - but that the fundamental NWN-system is still there, making the action stop and pause for no obvious reason.. not the best solution either. In the sense that the combat animations are made for a turn-based game with set turns, and then is forced on top of something that looks a bit like an action game - until you actually start to play it, and notice the counters and hit-registration still run on 3 second heartbeats... not great either.

 

I'm pretty sure we don't have much to worry about, though. Dungeon Siege 3 was a very good attempt at meshing turn-based or paused combat with action controls. Enjoyed playing that a lot. ..also from a game-mechanical standpoint, even if I'm not that fond of real-time dungeon crawler games, or lol and stuff like that. And from what Sawyer says, it seems that interference state between minions is something they're looking at from an animation and ruleset standpoint. The defense stances and so on won't really work if it's not accurate and real time.. so.. I suspect they're going for something that is a bit slower/more compact (that more happens in a shorter time) than DS3, and is intended to be paused a lot - but still is real time, with combat and events and animation interference actually looking like realtime.

[Volourn]

"First and for most Dragon Age Origins was remade to make Console Players happy that is whey it combat is not so good for PC players do any of you see PS3/4, X-Box 360/0 as the board for PoE no then it mean that the game will have combat like Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale. So please get sober and try to read about what you want to ask."

 

I'm a PC player and the combat was fine.

 

 

"Eh, still quite a few less then what BG had, especially if we count variants of the same base creature."

 

No.

 

 

"Dungeon Siege 3 was a very good attempt at meshing turn-based or paused combat with action controls."

 

DS3 was trash. Thankfully, PE will have more in common with DA combat than DS3.

[Volourn]

Don't be ignorant.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

"Don't be ignorant"

 

No.

[tajerio]

It's a trollpocalypse!

[Malekith]

"First and for most Dragon Age Origins was remade to make Console Players happy that is whey it combat is not so good for PC players do any of you see PS3/4, X-Box 360/0 as the board for PoE no then it mean that the game will have combat like Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale. So please get sober and try to read about what you want to ask."

 

I'm a PC player and the combat was fine.

 

 

"Eh, still quite a few less then what BG had, especially if we count variants of the same base creature."

 

No.

.

No

[Stun]

I will make complete list of opponents in BG.

^I recently tried doing this on another thread here. I got up to like 80 (and that's without even counting variants of the same species, of which there are....many. (there are more types of Golems in BG2 than there are Darkspawn in DA:O.) And I still probably missed about 40 or 50... or even more.

 

It's hard as hell to try and list BG2's Bestiary in its entirety. It will take you hours if you go it alone. It's far more numerous than any other game's. There is no doubt about that at all. The real question is: how much more? Well... by a conservative estimate I'd say at least 10 times more than DA:O's.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Stun

[Bryy]

Ok, are you drunk?

if memory serves well DAO have:

Genlocks

Hurlocks

Ogre

Spiders

Drakes

Dragons

Demons

Abominations

 

That's it. You are trying to tell us all, who played BG that there are no more enemies than that in BG?!

 

Sylvan

Grand Oak

Abomination

Hunger Demon

Desire Demon

Mabari

Rats

Raiders

Ancient Darkspawn

High Dragon

Flemeth

Archdemon

Genlock

Genlock Alpha

Genlock Sorcerer

Hurlock

Hurlock Alpha

Ogre

Broodmother

Queen Spider

Thaig Spiders

Werewolves

Blighted Werewolfs

Lady of the Forest

Elves

Dwarves

Golems

Sand Stalkers

Skeletons

Deepstalkers

 

I could go on, but do please continue being petty because you like one game over another.

[Stun]

I could go on, but do please continue being petty because you like one game over another.

Please do so, Bryy. Because so far you've managed to come up with a laughably minute list by normal RPG standards. 30 different enemies. A number so pitifully small that it is an insult to compare it with what BG2 had, which is easily 5 times that many, and likely more than even that.

 

And No, this is NOT about "liking one game over another". (I liked Both games. A lot) But a game's Bestiary is not a subjective, opinionated thing. We are dealing with numbers that can be counted.

 

Give credit where it's due. Baldurs Gate 2 did a few things objectively well. Its bestiary is one of them.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Stun

[tajerio]

 

I could go on, but do please continue being petty because you like one game over another.

Please do so, Bryy. Because so far you've managed to come up with a laughably small list by normal RPG standards. 30 different enemies. A number that pitifully minute is not worthy of being compared to what Baldur's Gate 2 gave us, which is easily 5 times that many.

 

And No, this is NOT about "liking one game over another". (I liked Both games. A lot) But a game's Bestiary is not a subjective, opinionated thing. We are dealing with numbers that can be counted.

 

Give credit where it's due. Baldurs Gate 2 did a few things objectively well. Its bestiary is one of them.

 

 

I don't think that 30 different enemies is necessarily a bad thing--depends how well differentiated they are from another--but I will emphatically agree that BG2 had excellent breadth and depth of enemies.

[Gromnir]

compare da:o to bg2 is a bit unfair, no? bg2 has benefit of bestiary from bg, totsc, iwd and the stuff added, finally, with bg2. heck, iwd were a black isle game, so bio got benefit o' a second developer's art. da:o, on the other hand, were game 1 in a new series. lord knows we got no idea what is relative effort to create  2d o' bg vs. 3d o' o' da:o, so am not certain how to balance that issue in favor o' bg or da:o, but at least we is limiting to a single offering from a single developer.  

 

now, you may return to the seeming pointless p3*** measuring.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

compare da:o to bg2 is a bit unfair, no?

I agree. The guilty party here was rather idiotic to try and do so when they know full well that you cannot compare a tiny little unripened grape to the massive, Guinness book of world records-winning Watermelon...... Unless you're an idiot who wants to be dog-piled. Edited April 27, 2014 by Stun

[W.MacKinnon]

A better comparison would have been Dragon age bestiary vs Neverwinter Nights 2 one. Taking into account the cost of creating full blown 3d composite images rather then 2d paperdolls used in the old infinity engine games. To me it seems much the same as voiced narrative dialog to unspoken written dialog in the old games. It was a matter of scale, the cost in time and money has to be higher to create a beholder as a 3d composite then a 2d paperdoll animation.

[Bryy]

 

I could go on, but do please continue being petty because you like one game over another.

Please do so, Bryy. Because so far you've managed to come up with a laughably minute list by normal RPG standards. 30 different enemies. A number so pitifully small that it is an insult to compare it with what BG2 had, which is easily 5 times that many, and likely more than even that.

 

And No, this is NOT about "liking one game over another". (I liked Both games. A lot) But a game's Bestiary is not a subjective, opinionated thing. We are dealing with numbers that can be counted.

 

Give credit where it's due. Baldurs Gate 2 did a few things objectively well. Its bestiary is one of them.

 

... why are you acting like I did some horrible thing? He made a statement, I corrected him. 

[anameforobsidian]

Dragon Age has more enemies as a series for about the same number of games. Lists included for those who doubt. The lists I found / compiled seem pretty complete, some stuff is missing (like demiliches).  But! Dragon age includes a **** lot of palette swaps; 15 Genlocks and 12 Hurlocks!  And a crapton of enemies on the Dragon Age list are use once (brood mother) or not actually enemies (nug).  Even with this included they're almost certainly at least at parity, with DA probably winning.

 

A lot of fights in DA feel same-y, but it didn't stop me from playing Origins twice.

 

Baldur's Gate

1.       Adamantite Golem

2.       Air Aspect

3.       Ankheg               

4.       Ashirukuru         

5.       Bandit  

6.       Basilisk, Greater              

7.       Basilisk, Lesser 

8.       Battle Horror     

9.       Bear, Black         

10.   Bear, Brown      

11.   Bear, Cave         

12.   Bear, Mountain               

13.   Bear, Polar

14.   Beholder            

15.   Black Talon Elite

16.   Bone Golem      

17.   Carrion Crawler

18.   Clay Golem

19.   Crypt Crawler   

20.   Djinni

21.   Dog, War            

22.   Dog, Wild            

23.   Doom Guard     

24.   Doppleganger  

25.   Doppleganger, Greater

26.   Duergar

27.   Drow

28.   Elder Orb

29.   Ettercap

30.   Ettin

31.   Fire Elemental  

32.   Fire Giant

33.   Fission Slime     

34.   Flesh Golem      

35.   Flind     

36.   Gauth

37.   Ghast   

38.   Ghoul   

39.   Ghoul, Greater

40.   Ghoul Lord

41.   Gibberling          

42.   Gibberling, Diseased     

43.   Gnoll    

44.   Gnoll Chieftain 

45.   Gnoll Elite           

46.   Gnoll Slasher     

47.   Gnoll Veteren  

48.   Goblin

49.   Gray Ooze          

50.   Green Slime      

51.   Guard  

52.   Half Ogre            

53.   Hamadryad        

54.   Helmed Horror 

55.   Hobgoblin          

56.   Hobgoblin, Chill

57.   Hobgoblin Elite 

58.   Ice Salamander

59.   Iron Golem

60.   Imp

61.   Invisibile Stalker              

62.   Kobold 

63.   Kobold Commando

64.   Lich

65.   Mephit

66.   Mind Flayer

67.   Minotaur

68.   Mimic Killer

69.   Mist, Horror

70.   Mist, Poison

71.   Mist, Vampiric

72.   Mummy

73.   Mummy, Greater           

74.   Mustard Jelly    

75.   Ochre Jelly         

76.   Ogre     

77.   Ogre Berserker

78.   Ogre Mage        

79.   Ogrillon               

80.   Orc

81.   Orog

82.   Oytugh

83.   Quasit

84.   Shadow

85.   Shadow Fiend

86.   Sirine    

87.   Skeleton             

88.   Skeleton Warrior             

89.   Spider, Astral Phase       

90.   Spider, Giant     

91.   Spider, Huge     

92.   Spider, Phase   

93.   Spider, Sword   

94.   Spider, Wraith  

95.   Stone Golem

96.   Tasloi    

97.   Troll

98.   Troll, Giant

99.   Troll, Ice

100.  Troll, Sea

101.  Troll, Spectral

102.  Troll, Spirit

103.  Umber Hulk

104.  Vampire

105.  Werewolf           

106.  Wolfwere           

107.  Wolf     

108.  Wolf, Dire           

109.  Wolf, Dread       

110.  Wolf, Vampire  

111.  Wolf, Winter     

112.  Worg    

113.  Wraith

114.  Wyvern               

115.  Wyvern, Baby   

116.  Wyvern, Greater             

117.  Xvart    

118.  Yuan-ti

119.  Yuan-ti, Greater

120.  Yuan-ti, Mage

121.  Zombie

 

Dragon Age

 

1.       Abomination

2.       Ancient darkspawn

3.       Ancient rock wraith

4.       Ancient sylvan

5.       Andoral

6.       Arcane horror

7.       Archdemon

8.       The Architect

9.       Armored ogre

10.   Armored ogre alpha

11.   Ash wraith

12.   Bear

13.   Behemoth

14.   Bereskarn

15.   Blight owl

16.   Blight wolf

17.   Blight wolf (thrall)

18.   Blighted werewolf

19.   Bloodcrow

20.   Bronto

21.   Broodmother

22.   Cassian

23.   Cave beetle

24.   Charmed Templar

25.   Charred sylvan

26.   Children

27.   Corpse

28.   Corrupted spider

29.   Corrupted spider queen

30.   Deepstalker

31.   Deepstalker (variation)

32.   Deepstalker leader

33.   Deepstalker matriarch

34.   Desire demon

35.   Devouring corpse

36.   Devouring skeleton

37.   The Disciples

38.   Dog

39.   Dog (Dragon Age II)

40.   Dragon

41.   Dragon (variation)

42.   Dragon thrall

43.   Dragonling

44.   Drake

45.   Dumat

46.   Emissary

47.   Emissary apprentice

48.   Enraged corpse

49.   Enraged spirit

50.   Ethereal golem

51.   Experimental subject

52.   Fade beast

53.   Fade Rifter

54.   Fanged skeleton

55.   Ferret the Packrat

56.   Firesprite

57.   The First

58.   Flemeth the Shapeshifter

59.   Forgotten spirit

60.   Gangue shade

61.   Gate guardian

62.   Gatekeeper

63.   Gazarath

64.   Genlock

65.   Genlock (thrall)

66.   Genlock (variation)

67.   Genlock alpha

68.   Genlock archer

69.   Genlock archer (thrall)

70.   Genlock assassin acolyte

71.   Genlock conjurer

72.   Genlock emissary

73.   Genlock forge master

74.   Genlock master assassin

75.   Genlock necromancer

76.   Genlock rogue

77.   Genlock runner

78.   Genlock shadow

79.   Genlock shapechanger

80.   Ghast

81.   Ghast brute

82.   Ghastling

83.   Ghoul

84.   Giant poisonous spider

85.   Giant rat

86.   Giant spider

87.   Giant spiderling

88.   Glowing slime

89.   Golem

90.   Golem master

91.   The Grand Oak

92.   Griffon

93.   Hafter (dog)

94.   Halla

95.   Harvester

96.   The Herald

97.   High dragon

98.   Hunger demon

99.   Hurlock

100.  Hurlock (thrall)

101.  Hurlock (variation)

102.  Hurlock alpha

103.  Hurlock archer

104.  Hurlock archer (thrall)

105.  Hurlock berserker

106.  Hurlock bolter

107.  Hurlock Dragon-Tamer

108.  Hurlock emissary

109.  Hurlock emissary (thrall)

110.  Hurlock general

111.  Hurlock grunt

112.  Hurlock omega

113.  Hurlock vanguard

114.  Hybris

115.  Indignant spirit

116.  Inferno golem

117.  Kitty

118.  The Lady of the Forest

119.  Legion spirit

120.  Leopold

121.  The Lost

122.  Lusacan

123.  Mabari

124.  Malvernis

125.  Mature dragon

126.  The Messenger (Awakening)

127.  Monstrous spider

128.  The Mother

129.  Nug

130.  Ogre

131.  Ogre (thrall)

132.  Ogre (variation)

133.  Ogre alpha

134.  Ogre commander

135.  The Old One

136.  Phantasmal crossbowman

137.  Phantasmal shadow

138.  Phantasmal warrior

139.  Poisonous spider

140.  Possessed ogre commander

141.  Possessed Templar

142.  Pride demon

143.  Primal phantasm

144.  Queen of the Blackmarsh

145.  Queen spider

146.  Rage demon

147.  Razikale

148.  Red lion

149.  Revenant

150.  Risen ogre

151.  Rock wraith

152.  Runic Golem

153.  Sand stalker

154.  Sand stalker leader

155.  Sand stalker spitter

156.  Schmooples

157.  The Seeker

158.  Sentinel (golem)

159.  Sentinel (suit of armor)

160.  Shade

161.  Shadow warrior

162.  Shah Wyrd

163.  Shambling corpse

164.  Shambling skeleton

165.  Shriek

166.  Shriek (thrall)

167.  Shriek alpha

168.  Silent Crawler

169.  Skeleton

170.  Skeleton archer

171.  Skeleton mage

172.  Slave statue

173.  Sloth

174.  Sloth demon

175.  Snug the Bronto

176.  Spider

177.  Spiderling

178.  Spirit

179.  Spirit of Faith

180.  Spirit of Valor

181.  Steel golem

182.  Stone golem

183.  Suit of armor

184.  Swiftrunner

185.  Sylvan

186.  Thaig crawler

187.  The Dark Theurge

188.  The Forbidden Ones

189.  Toth

190.  Trickster Whim

191.  Urthemiel

192.  Varterral

193.  Velghast

194.  Velghastrial

195.  Venomous spider

196.  Walking corpse

197.  Watcher

198.  Werewolf

199.  Wild sylvan

200.  Wisp wraith

[Gromnir]

A better comparison would have been Dragon age bestiary vs Neverwinter Nights 2 one. Taking into account the cost of creating full blown 3d composite images rather then 2d paperdolls used in the old infinity engine games. To me it seems much the same as voiced narrative dialog to unspoken written dialog in the old games. It was a matter of scale, the cost in time and money has to be higher to create a beholder as a 3d composite then a 2d paperdoll animation.

nwn2 is an obsidian game, not bioware, so that comparison is questionable as well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

The lists I found / compiled seem pretty complete, some stuff is missing (like demiliches).

What? the list you found/compiled is not even halfway complete.

 

You've missed whole categories of enemies from BG2. Where are the 5 Demon Types? Where are the 4 Illithid Types? Where are the 4 Sahuigan types (and the 6 named Sahuigans? Where are the 4 Koa-Toa types (and their Prince?) Where are the f*cking DRAGONS? Where's the Gythyanki family of monsters? Where are all of BG2's non-hostiles? (since you've decided to add this silly category to pad DA:O's bestiary number). Where are the Familiars?

 

And where's Throne of Bhaal's Bestiary? You missed it. You literally missed it all. The entire Celestial family species. And the various Tetherian guards (all types) And Il-kahn guards (all types) The other 3 types of Golems, the other 2 types of Demons. The 4 types of Devils, The 3 types of Fire Giants. And then the list of Uniques from both games.....which goes on forever (Mellisan, Draconis, Demogorgon, Abazigal, Sendai, Yaga-Shura, Illisara, Brennen, Gromnir Il-Khan, Torgal, Irenicus, Shangular and his unique comrades + the other 60-100 uniques that I can't be bothered to name because I have to go to work in about 12 hours etc. etc.) The Elemental princes (all 6 of them) The Master Wraith (and for that matter, the gigantic list of undead from both the main game and the expansion that you flat out forgot. Yeah, that one didn't get past me. since it adds about another 30-50 to the bestiary alone) Ditto with the 2 beholder types you decided not to include, The New Deurgar types, the new Umberhulk type, All the new enemy variants from Yaga Shura's temple (there's a boat load of them... there Burning men, fire trolls, fire salamanders, burning skulls etc. And we can't forget the chinchilla Bhaalspawn outside the temple.) The Unique spider from Sendai's enclave, and for that matter, the 3 new types of spiders introduced in ToB, and all of Sendai's named guards.) Then there's the unique stuff in Abazigal's lair (eagle eye, and other types of beholder-kin, Lycanth the mad, etc) And each unique entity in all 3 final seals of Watcher's keep level 4...I think there's another dozen there) The statues on level 1, the Guardians on Level 2, etc.

 

And.... we're only scratching the surface. You've decided that the Genlock species gets 17 individual entries for Dragon age, but then you dishonestly decide that Mephits from Bg2 only get one...even though there are at least...8 completely different types of Mephits. You did the same with Hurlocks (they get 14 entries) can we do the same with Bg2's vampires? (which you only gave 1 entry, even though there's about...14 different vampires types, named and un-named?)

 

 

92. Griffon

Haha

 

Griffons.... are not in Dragon age: Origins or any of its DLC, nor are they in Dragon Age 2 or its DLC. They are strictly mentioned only in the lore. But if you wish to include lore-only entities, then of course we will do the same with Baldurs Gate 1, 2 and their expansions.... and that will force us to add every single monster from Fiend Folio, Monster Manual 1 and Monster Manual 2, that have not already appeared in the Baldur's Gate Bestiary ( so...what...another 1000 or so monsters? More?)

Edited April 28, 2014 by Stun

[anameforobsidian]

I copied and pasted.  You're welcome to look yourself / edit instead of getting snippy.

[Stun]

No, I think I'll continue to be "snippy".

I copied and pasted.

From where?

 

I got a better Idea. Why don't you try *playing* BG2. Seriously, you forgot Dragons. That's a pretty Glaring Omission. That's like someone listing DA:O's bestiary and forgetting The Darkspawn.

 

And for that matter, you should maybe Play Dragon Age too, because This.... is nonsense:

Dragon Age

 

7. Archdemon

191. Urthemiel

Urthemiel *IS* the Archdemon.

 

And for that matter, there's a lot of silly double-ups on your List. Dumat. Dumat was the First archdemon, which does not appear in Dragon age, because he was killed 1000 years earlier. Kitty IS a Desire Demon. Sloth IS a sloth demon. Snug the Bronto is a friggin companion. (can we include on BG2's list all of BG2's companions?)

 

Schmooples? Alright, I'll give you that. And for the Baldurs Gate list we'll add Boo.

 

And I just love this: 38.Dog 39. Dog (Dragon Age II) A literal doubling up from both games. Excuse me, a TRIPLING up (123. Mabari) LOL. We'll triple up everything from BG1 and BG2 as well.... That'll give us another 200 entries on the BG2 list.

 

 

Your copy/paste list is meaningless.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Stun

[anameforobsidian]

No, I think I'll continue to be "snippy".

From where?

 

I got a better Idea. Why don't you try *playing* BG2. Seriously, you forgot Dragons. That's a pretty Glaring Omission. That's like someone listing DA:O's bestiary and forgetting The Darkspawn.

 

And for that matter, you should maybe Play Dragon Age too, because This.... is nonsense:

Dragon Age

 

7. Archdemon

191. Urthemiel

Your copy/paste list is meaningless.

 

Then fix it instead of complaining.

[Ink Blot]

FFS, what's the argument about? Who gives a flying fart whether BG2 or DA:O has more monster types? With regard to the actual thread title, I have to ask (again): who cares? If PoE were intended as a nod to or a spiritual successor to DA:O, then the question might have merit. But since the inspiration for PoE are the Infinity Engine games (PS:T, IWD, and BG), I think the original question is meaningless.

 

Why all the argument and angst? Can't we all just get along...?