Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Walsingham]

 

There isn't a nation on Earth that hasn't killed some of its citizens. Particularly _when they are armed to the teeth and occupying government buildings_.

 

Why are you ignoring that this is an insurrection? Excuse me, in a best case scenario this is an insurrection. At worst it's an invasion.

 

Are you seriously asserting that wherever you live the government would allow armed men to do this? Because if so I know where my next holiday is going to be.

 

So Yanukovich should have shot all the maidan rebels then, when they were taking over government buildings? And you'd have approved?

 

 

No, I think they should be muslim, then you'd have no problem with it.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

There isn't a nation on Earth that hasn't killed some of its citizens. Particularly _when they are armed to the teeth and occupying government buildings_.

 

Why are you ignoring that this is an insurrection? Excuse me, in a best case scenario this is an insurrection. At worst it's an invasion.

 

Are you seriously asserting that wherever you live the government would allow armed men to do this? Because if so I know where my next holiday is going to be.

 

So Yanukovich should have shot all the maidan rebels then, when they were taking over government buildings? And you'd have approved?

 

 

No, I think they should be muslim, then you'd have no problem with it.

 

 

Hopping over your own hypocrisy to deflect? Ok

 

Weak though.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sarex]

No, I think they should be muslim, then you'd have no problem with it.

 

Weak sauce, that is something I would expect from Bruce.

[Malcador]

Well, people only care when it's when the "wrong" people getting killed. Look at crime in your area for an example. Here gang violence was ok until a white girl and a young kid bought it *shrug*.

[BruceVC]

There isn't a nation on Earth that hasn't killed some of its citizens. Particularly _when they are armed to the teeth and occupying government buildings_.

 

Why are you ignoring that this is an insurrection? Excuse me, in a best case scenario this is an insurrection. At worst it's an invasion.

 

Are you seriously asserting that wherever you live the government would allow armed men to do this? Because if so I know where my next holiday is going to be.

 

Walsie is 100 % correct around the actions of the Ukrainian government. They already let a junk of there country get annexed by Russia in the Crimea. There is no, and I'll repeat that...NO, country in the world that will allow parts of its sovereign state to get broken away. They were very patient with the pro-Russian separatists but now the whatever happens in a consequence of there intransigence

 

Its absurd that some people on these forums think the Ukrainian government is being unreasonable. The correct action would have been to vacate all buildings they were occupying and wait for the election before they decided they weren't going to be part of greater Ukraine

[sorophx]

come on. occupying government buildings in protest isn't a crime even, unless people try to vandalize said buildings. the simple act of occupation should register with those at the wheel, and it should initialize a process of negotiations. no government has the right to kill anybody. unless it's population control, in which case death penalty for the most hideous crimes would be more than enough. everything else is ****ing senseless.

 

and if the protesters suddenly grab weapons and start shooting at the police, pacify them (the police has the means), try them and execute, in due process. 

 

funny thing is, in Ukraine often times the current government doesn't give orders to shoot their political adversaries and dissidents, it just looks the other way, while their plaything, the driving force behind the Euromaidan, kills people left and right in plain sight 

[Gorgon]

Country is falling appart, they haven't got the manpower to send riot police. Besides, why would things be different with new guys in charge. They are just trying to maintain, much like Yanokovic.

[Zoraptor]

You see all those AKs and balaclavas?

 

You know where you don't see them? Mariupol and Odessa. You know where the massacres have taken place? Mariupol and Odessa. You know where the massacres haven't taken place- yet at least? Where there actually are effective, if still relatively lightly armed militia with AKs and balaklavas as in Slovyansk/ Donetsk/ Lugansk protecting people from crowd control via BMP. You have to congratulate the Ukrainians on telling the people that disagree with them that they're going to get shot up and burned alive unless they become a heavily armed mob with enough armament to deter incursions. That's sure to de-escalate things, as is the unconditional support for using BMPs as crowd control from the same westerners who threw a monumental wobbly- big enough for a Richter Moment Magnitude reading- when Yanukovich used asterisking water cannon and tear gas.

 

The BBC- the BBC- had footage of a completely unarmed man getting gunned down by the Ukrainian military in the street, ITV had footage of another. Neither was balaklava wearing or armed. The Ukrainian narrative of the issue is utterly muddled, they still cannot decide what exactly they were doing at the police station, whether they were liberating it or defending it from being liberated. As they insist that they lost only one man and there were at least three dead police shown one can only assume that they were firing on the police themselves, and all the eye witnesses who said the police refused to fire on the crowd and were then shot up by the army for not doing have the correct interpretation.

 

It really is rather depressing to see those cretins in Kiev doing every stupid thing I said they would. I would far rather be wrong about them than right.

 

What do you think they've been shooting helicopters down with? Dirty JOKES?

 

Again, there have been zero helicopters downed in Mariupol or Odessa. Not a one. And there's been a massacre in each. The only place they've been shot down is where there's an effective deterrence against aggression, ie not where the massacres are taking place.

 

Plus, of course, the only independently verified helicopter shoot down was via small arms, despite the insistence of some that they had to be shot down with rockets. Indeed, the rump government has already changed their story on the first one to be 'shot down' (which was actually almost certainly a spontaneous fuel fire due to bad maintenance) from being hit by a rocket to being hit by a sniper's bullet.

 

Now, we can wait to see what the junta will do to disrupt the referendum. Tanks? Artillery? Chopers? Bombers? Sky's the limit. Most effective tactic would probably be to just laugh at the sidelines, but that's far too smart for the clowns in Kiev.

[Hassat Hunter]

You see all those AKs and balaclavas?

Yup, I did in Mariupol.

 

They were Ukranian army btw...

[sorophx]

Country is falling appart, they haven't got the manpower to send riot police.

sending in riot police was what got Yanukovich in trouble in the first place. I sometimes wonder why Russian protests never get anywhere (it's against the law in Russia to protest without having proper papers signed by local government). one would think in cities like St. Petersburg and Moscow there would be a lot of young liberal activists willing to stick it to the Man. is it because they have the biggest police force? so they can just strangle any crowd with swarms of OMON?

 

besides, when the country is falling apart it's a bit too late to send in the army to try and stitch it back together. nothing good could've come out of that. and since the new thugs in power support the most violent groups in their desperation anyway, the army would have to break all their ties with the government and stand with the people, protecting them from the nationalists.

 

the new government isn't even a legitimate one. we don't know how Yatz got into his position, for all I know it could've easily been a coup, facilitated by the lawlessness in the capital.

 

EDIT: according to Vice, it was the Right Sector rolling around in BMPs shooting at police in Mariupol 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSzewPMhD4

Edited May 11, 2014 by sorophx

[Hassat Hunter]

Even the Dutch news now reports armed American mercenaries, previously known as Blackwater, operate on Kiev's side... based on intel of the German Intelligence Service BND.

 

Meanwhile, there's a lot of interest in the 'illegal' vote in Eastern Ukraine.

[Zoraptor]

Blackwater would certainly explain a penchant for randomly shooting places up, even if they're just instructors. Funny in a way, I thought the accusations from the Russians about Blackwater involvement seemed pretty unlikely (FUD, basically) when they made them last month. I guess the ultimate source was probably the same there as well, intelligence sources. Still, nice to see that Ukraine have found something constructive to spend their 3 billion IMF loan on.

[Drowsy Emperor]

So they're really there. So much for the legitimacy of Kiev, using mercenaries against their own people.

[Hassat Hunter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzQHYO7YIF8

 

Super-armed seperatist Russian Spetznaz voting in Mariopel...

They still look surprisingly much like civilians to me...

 

EDIT: I forgot all of them are elite Russian Spetznaz... corrected!

Edited May 11, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Mor]

Well, people only care when it's when the "wrong" people getting killed. Look at crime in your area for an example. Here gang violence was ok until a white girl and a young kid bought it *shrug*.

Similarly, in Ukraine, Sovoboda was the smallest opposition party, that has been around for two decades and was legally fit to sit in the opposition during the previous government, was turned into all out Nazis, the face of the opposition\Euromaiden\Ukraine, just as protest over corruption and economy turned into a planned putsch... and now armed militias that took over whole region and shoot up military choppers are just like Euromaiden..

 

---

 

In other news, the deposed Ukrainian president Yanukovych, whom Russia used on camera to say that he ask for Russian help, wants Russia to give Crimea back.

 

---

 

Even the Dutch news now reports armed American mercenaries, previously known as Blackwater, operate on Kiev's side... based on intel of the German Intelligence Service BND.

Yes.. it was desimnated from RT(Russian news), and still there is not even fracture of proof compared to Russia's involvement that previously took place in Crimea, which you have been dismissing out of hand.

 

 

Even the Dutch news now reports armed American mercenaries...

Blackwater would certainly explain a penchant for randomly shooting places up...

So they're really there. So much for the legitimacy of Kiev, using mercenaries against their own people.

I guess its a fact now , again one point for the team oby retard kids. Not surprising though, they desperately need it to be orchestrated by USA, making them the bad guys, but so far its one of the sketchiest conspiracy theories, fueled by prejudice and made by applying supposition on none "facts"(like the above) riddled with unexplained leaps.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Bro, it's as proven as any 'fact' from the US State Department/ British Foreign Office or Ukrainian government based on intelligence. In this case it's the 'friendly' German intelligence doing the leaking as well as the 'enemy' Russian one, so it's a lot more credible and is not something the BND would make up randomly to make their favoured side look bad. Yeah, if it's the Russians and only the Russians saying so it may well be straight propaganda, if it's the Russians and Germans saying so they could still be wrong, but it doesn't seem likely and it isn't propaganda.

[Gorgon]

There was mention of 50 mercenaries. If they are there they are probably bodyguards for various VIPs. Maybe carry out renditions and the like. The recent action where an APC was stranded looked a bit too amateurish for them I think. 

[Hassat Hunter]

400 actually.

 

And I am SURE the German Intelligence officer got it of RT and then told that to Merkel... that's like... completely plausable and believable...

 

EDIT:

But maybe the Germans are Retards too. After all, during the cold war about 50% of it was Russian. That MUST show they're Russian spies... so sayeth the Mor clan.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Zoraptor]

Their conduct in Iraq was pretty amateurish, to say the least; blundering into the middle of Fallujah and getting themselves killed was utter incompetence as was shooting up a Baghdad round-a-bout and killing a bunch of completely innocent people. That is basically why they aren't called Blackwater any more but are called Greystone/ Xe/ Academi as their reputation was, er, shot by their conduct.

 

But I certainly wouldn't think they'd be doing direct combat in Ukraine for the same reason I don't think there are Russian soldiers there, it'd be a PR disaster for them to be caught and there are enough available fighters to do the fighting without them. I'd suspect they'd mainly be instructor types.

[Mor]

Inside Putin's Campaign Of Social Media Trolling And Faked Ukrainian Crimes

 

Vladimir Putin uses an invisible army of social media propagandists, in addition to conventional media, to support his narrative of an out-of-control Ukraine, to spread fabrications of atrocities by Ukrainian extremists, and to unleash destabilizing rumors on east Ukraine. If Ukraine unmasks the myths of Russia’s disinformation war, Putin’s target audiences, at home and abroad, must eventually reject his whole narrative.

 

...

 

Putin’s Orders of Service reward his visible army of TV, print and on-line journalists. Left out are the equally important invisible cogs of his propaganda machine; namely, the social networkers, rumor-mongerers, and the armies of trolls, poised to attack any unfavorable media. This invisible, clandestine army, toiling away in obscurity, is an indispensable weapon in peddling the Russian narrative of “neo-Nazi extremists” backed by the U. S. state department and NATO, who usurped control from the “democratically-elected” Ukrainian president. We know Putin’s visible media and can evaluate it as such. We cannot say the same for Putin’s social media warriors, who operate behind a veil of secrecy, anonymity, and assumed identities.

 

...

 

Western media and diplomats now openly admit that Putin lies deliberately and without hesitation. In its releases on Crimea, the state department used “fiction” and “false claims” to describe lies of Putin and his diplomats. .. Putin’s reputation for lying was cemented by his casual statement in his April 17 news conference that Russian troops were all along in Crimea, despite earlier denials

 

...

 

Putin’s invisible social-media campaign includes fiction writers posting on fake Facebook (or the Russian version Vkontakte) accounts, pretending to have witnessed some horrendous crime committed by Ukrainian extremists. A second wing handles the shadowy distribution of photo-shopped or staged photos, again featuring Ukrainian atrocities. A third wing spreads rumors to destabilize entire communities and districts. No one really knows from whence the fake photo came or who originated the rumor, but they continue to spread through the targeted population.

 

...

[Tagaziel]

I like how the fact that Russia deliberately destabilized Ukraine and annexed Crimea through force has been effectively whitewashed out of existence in this thread. Poor little Russia, Ukraine definitely had Crimea annexed just to make peaceful Putin look bad.

 

In other news, separatists claim 90% of people want to break away from Ukraine. Gee, where have I seen those figures before?

[BruceVC]

Bro, it's as proven as any 'fact' from the US State Department/ British Foreign Office or Ukrainian government based on intelligence. In this case it's the 'friendly' German intelligence doing the leaking as well as the 'enemy' Russian one, so it's a lot more credible and is not something the BND would make up randomly to make their favoured side look bad. Yeah, if it's the Russians and only the Russians saying so it may well be straight propaganda, if it's the Russians and Germans saying so they could still be wrong, but it doesn't seem likely and it isn't propaganda.

 

Zora my advice is before you post any links see if you can substantiate what you think from maybe 3 or 4 other websites. The issue I have is generally you guys posts links and the source is RT....which we know is biased. This goes towards the credibility of what  you guys generally tell us about Ukraine. If you follow the 3-4 other website  check rule you won't post as much misinformation

[obyknven]

I like how the fact that Russia deliberately destabilized Ukraine and annexed Crimea through force has been effectively whitewashed out of existence in this thread. Poor little Russia, Ukraine definitely had Crimea annexed just to make peaceful Putin look bad.

 

In other news, separatists claim 90% of people want to break away from Ukraine. Gee, where have I seen those figures before?

[sorophx]

Did I miss the memo? Where was it stated Russia was behind euromaidan?

[Hassat Hunter]

Russia is behind EVERYTHING. From the euro-crisis, to the US-debt, to Iraq, to Syria, to Egypt, to Libia, to Hell. Didn't you hear?

 

It makes me really sad a lot of (Dutch) people really believe the "Russia is evil" crap, and go along with Putin/Russia is the worst ever, and they caused all Ukrainian drama. Hello, Kiev? The army? No?

 

Also funny, Tagaziel, how was Crimea taken "by force" again? Without a shot? How is that force? On the other hand Kiev armor and weaponry draws a bloody path through the east. The US would wish they could take over country with that much "force". Instead all of their hostile takeovers turn into bloodbaths. Here, once more.

But sure, Russia is the evil party here since it doesn't spill blood. That's totally logical...

 

EDIT: I also find it funny we all "quote RT" while giving BBC links, or youtube, and never any RT at all. The brainwash is strong here, so strong they see us making links that don't even exist. And convienently forget the links we do provide... heh.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Hassat Hunter