Update #76: Music in Pillars of Eternity

[Justin Bell]

Holy moly, the game's composer took time to post ... I feel like I just walked past him on the street! Cool, thanks for the update and all fantastic, hard work. 

 

Heh... That's pretty funny.  Just a regular person here.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Justin, one question I have regarding writing for the game, do the narrative designers or directors get really specific when writing for a mood or tone of a zone? I'm curious to know what the context of the tone in the game will be like. Will there be a mixture of really happy places and some super creepy - don't play the game in the dark, type of dungeons? Another thing, how do you handle writing for character themes versus choosing to write for a zone? I imagine everything you write is trying to evoke an emotional tone, and I wonder how serious PoE takes itself. I feel like there was a unique playfulness in the BG1 game vs the 2nd one, and the IWD games didn't seem like there was time for shenanigans, but I wonder with the personality's of many of the dev's who post on here they often seem very jovial and happy people, and pretty silly at times. Do you think the tone of the dev's will carry over into the overarching design, or will the game be fairly one dimensional in it's thematic design?  

 

 

PS this song is completely not what I'm saying the music should be like for this game, but what I think it does for me is it evokes an awesome sense of motivation and I can leave it on a loop all day without getting fatigued. I don't understand the techniques used it this style, but I find it very pleasing and its very different than the other types of music I like. Maybe it will give you some inspiration for composition...

 

 

Edited April 17, 2014 by Falkon Swiftblade

[Cubiq]

I like the tune. When I first heard it this morning, only with iPod earplugs and on a noisy train, it really didn't strike me as particularly interesting. It sounded like it was going nowhere and it lacked a leading melody or a theme of sorts.

 

But now, when I actually listened to it with my gaming headphones, I'm much more impressed. Especially those deep, dark moments were awesome and I enjoy those little nuances. It kind of reminded me more of actual classical music, than gaming music. At least some parts. I'm - apart from listening to some stuff - a complete classical noob, so I don't want to go further into that.

 

I particularly liked the second part of the piece, but still, I miss some kind of overarching theme. But it's shaping out nicely.

Very similar to what i was thinking.

I also felt that it lacked a leading melody or an instrument, but perhaps this was intended because it's a town song.

But i don't think that has to be the case. When i first heard the IWD1 Kuldahar theme it gave a chill to how nicely the melody emphasize the town, that i waited outdoors just to hear the loop one more time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y96Y2JE5F8

The more and more i listen to Dyford theme, the more and more i like it, because i can now see that it does actually have leading instruments, but i feel they might be a bit too subtle. Like in 2:57 the bassoon could perhaps be a bit louder? Or at 3:39 i feel that the (what sounds like a) flute could be stronger?

Basically things like that.

[Ineth]

I like the sound of these 4 together (A bit of a repeat, they are in the links above, but just to organize it a little bit):

1. Dyrford (100% Volume)

2. Water-Mill (5%~10% Volume)

3. Gentle Stream (10%~20% Volume)

4. Ambient Medieval (20%~ Volume)

 

Nice.

 

Now, in addition to that, imagine those background effects using positional audio, i.e. the closer you get to the water-mill the louder you hear the corresponding sound from that direction... I imagine it will feel pretty awesome.

 

Although I must say I also like the more melodic and "epic" background scores from games like BG2 and IWD1/2, so I hope we will get at least some of that kind of music as well. (Maybe in the main menu screen? Or during battles?)

In BG2, even the "slow & gentle" background tracks managed to feel sort of epic and inspiring, for example listen to Viconia's Theme...

[Amentep]

have always been a sucker for contradictions. morricone is probable most familiar to folks via the spaghetti westerns.  but then you listen to The Mission soundtrack or parts of Once Upon a Time in America and you get whole different perspective. we like the Fist Full of Dollars theme as much as The Mission (well almost) but on a complete different level. 

Once Upon a time in America is good; its been awhile since I've heard his The Mission. But he is so prolific that he did it all from crime films, to dramas, to comedies, to actions films and westerns. Diverse stuff like mod spy film Danger: Diabolik to John Carpenter's The Thing.

 

Always liked his The Untouchables soundtrack too...

 

modern Movie composers is tough 'cause it seems as if there is only a handful of guys that gets all the work (hyperbole) and as much as we like some o' their work, we actual dislike other scores.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxabLA7UQ9k

 

would be a complete different movie w/o hans zimmer, but we is complete hit & miss on zimmer.  if we take his entire body o' work, we is ambivalent. kinda like jerry goldsmith... hard to believe that the guy who did Patton & Chinatown also did Gremlins 2: The New Batch. really. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps that is not a common rita hayworth image, but most rita is good rita.

I like Goldsmith but he has a lot of good sountracks on bad films to be fair (I don't recall Gremlins 2's music at all, though). And for me Hans Zimmer is a bit hit or miss; like some of his stuff but others don't grab me.

 

I do like Giacchino a good bit though. And I'm fond of Danny Elfman's work although I understand why others don't like him as much.

 

RE: Rita - caught a bit of Cover Girl the other day and the look stuck with me. Was a pain finding a picture I could use though...

Edited April 17, 2014 by Amentep

[karelia]

Great update, thanks. I like how you were able to talk about the music in as detailed a way as the other updates, and while I understand that people who just view music as a functional backing may not enjoy this update, many others are interested. I agree with your mentioning of the problems of transitioning tracks. Even Tchaikovsky had problems with sectional transitions.

Like many of the other respondents, I like the dynamic range and tone of the music, but had reservations about the lack of a clear thread through it. This is not neccessarily a complaint about it shifting in mood or being sectional, but more related to the "big tune" factor that others have raised (and imo has become a bit confused with the word "epic" when I feel that some just mean up-front and melodic rather than reticent). As one person mentioned, the BG1 soundtrack managed to solve this identity problem by having a strong theme that was then punctuated throughout many of the overworld tracks to tie the game's musical profile together. I also feel that the warmth of the BG soundtracks was strongly related to it being quite perky in general. Even bucolic 'backdrop' tracks like Exploring the Plains were strongly hummable, and not neccessarily in an in-your-face way. The Candlekeep/City track also had light and shade parts while remaining very tied together. I suppose if I were to suggest anything, it would to not be shy about putting solo instruments (oboe, bassoon, cor anglais) to the forefront, and also about using them to foreshadow development of melodic material for larger forces later on, perhaps in the form of a coda.

To the positive, I feel that the sectional element of the Dyrford track could help mitigate listener fatigue. By being sectional it also helps meld the subjective experience of exploration and moving around the environment with a soundtrack that seems more readily to 'respond' to this. The opening I found impressive, and the brass-tinged part effective, and it did convey the feeling of an isolated town surrounded by something large - simultaneously civilised but also with a mysterious element. I also have no reason to believe that the music for the game will all be identical to this, or lack variety, but I do understand peoples worries about the music perhaps being a little too much of a 'wash' of sounds. However, even if that were to be the case, I feel it would be an effective method for writing for a game of this type, as there is no single 'right' way. As long as it has some grabby tunes and an atmosphere of intrigue (whether in civilised or wild areas) I'll be more than satisfied.

Edited April 17, 2014 by karelia

[Starwars]

^--- Good post.

 

Something I have to wonder though. Do people feel that the in-game implementation of BG1's music was actually that good? For me personally, I think the melodies are nice and the tracks do give a sense of grandeur or adventure (perhaps what many people describe as "epic"). But did you guys not get tired of the themes constantly playing and starting over when playing that game?

 

I get really tired of them despite actually liking the music.The melodies burrow their way into my head. Personally I feel that'sa huge danger of introducing too many melodic segments in games, or music that is "catchy".

[karelia]

Something I have to wonder though. Do people feel that the in-game implementation of BG1's music was actually that good? For me personally, I think the melodies are nice and the tracks do give a sense of grandeur or adventure (perhaps what many people describe as "epic"). But did you guys not get tired of the themes constantly playing and starting over when playing that game?

 

I get really tired of them despite actually liking the music.The melodies burrow their way into my head. Personally I feel that'sa huge danger of introducing too many melodic segments in games, or music that is "catchy".

While I find some of BG1's music to be unparalleled in character (for example the vibrant temple music), I do agree that if it were to be used in a modern game it would require modification to avoid repeating too much. I feel that the simplest way would be simply to spread out the loops more, and add some more ambient music in between, perhaps based on the melodic material of the music it interleaves - maybe for smaller instrumental forces, for example a solo woodwind in dialogue with the ambient nature sounds.

 

I also feel that half of the reason it loops so often is because the developers knew it would be constantly interrupted by out of place battle music. Insensitive/inflexible battle music is something that even modern RPGs suffer greatly from (and indeed battle sounds such as yelling being uncomfortably loud in contrast to the pleasant sounds you may have been enjoying at fairly loud volume during exploration).

Edited April 17, 2014 by karelia

[Sensuki]

I didn't find that the BG wilderness music was repetitive. When you went to a wilderness area, a track would play and it would end, and then there would be silence for a while. 

Environmental tracks - such as inn music got repetitive if you paused or were standing in the inn for some time, as they were endless loops.

[Amentep]

^--- Good post.

 

Something I have to wonder though. Do people feel that the in-game implementation of BG1's music was actually that good? For me personally, I think the melodies are nice and the tracks do give a sense of grandeur or adventure (perhaps what many people describe as "epic"). But did you guys not get tired of the themes constantly playing and starting over when playing that game?

 

I get really tired of them despite actually liking the music.The melodies burrow their way into my head. Personally I feel that'sa huge danger of introducing too many melodic segments in games, or music that is "catchy".

The only time I've ever had problems with repeating music is when I didn't like the song.

 

If I liked the song and was tired of hearing it, mentally I just stopped paying attention to it.

[Gromnir]

 

^--- Good post.

 

Something I have to wonder though. Do people feel that the in-game implementation of BG1's music was actually that good? For me personally, I think the melodies are nice and the tracks do give a sense of grandeur or adventure (perhaps what many people describe as "epic"). But did you guys not get tired of the themes constantly playing and starting over when playing that game?

 

I get really tired of them despite actually liking the music.The melodies burrow their way into my head. Personally I feel that'sa huge danger of introducing too many melodic segments in games, or music that is "catchy".

The only time I've ever had problems with repeating music is when I didn't like the song.

 

If I liked the song and was tired of hearing it, mentally I just stopped paying attention to it.

 

am thinking that the repetitive nature o' a game can lead to almost Pavlovian disgust of the music.  there is games wherein game combat is perhaps not as engaging as one would hope. first time one hears the hypothetical "enemy is sighted" theme, perhaps they think that such music is ok... better yet, they don't even notice. sometimes good music is not perceived but simply experienced. the thing is, after some undefinable number o' combats, the player gets sick o' the thought o' another seemingly pointless flabarrgen encounter and the "epic" music being played in background feels a bit silly. disgust with the combat spills-over and now you not even need the combat-- "enemy is sighted" starts playing and already your teeth is set on edge.  congratulations, you has been conditioned to loathe the music when you is in fact irritated by the combat. however, and perhaps unfortunately, the reason you dislike the music is inconsequential. is now a concrete fact that the music irritates you and knowing the reason don't change a thing.

 

regardless, Gromnir is able to envision good music gone bad based 'pon its ubiquitous and incessant nature. am recognizing that this is more of a gameplay issue than music, but we will observe that if you does plan on having a particular theme play over and over and over and overandoverandoverandoverandoverandoverandoverandover, it might be better to shoot for understatement.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 17, 2014 by Gromnir

[Asccs]

It all seems very technical! I didn't really grasp the process.

The music in itself sounds unimpressive but must have taken a lot of work I suppose.

[Failion]

I never was a fan of the infinity engine games music besides a few tracks what were amazing. Arcanum soundtrack was annoying how it all the music emphasized on one instrument but was alright. Medieval music sounds awesome and can be very atmospheric but at times sounds mundane and boring. Personally I'm more of a fan of high powered fantasy sounding music like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCT-JDMTI5I. This bossfight music you can imagine a wizardry samurai twirling his katanas at rapid rates before opening his palm to blast enemies with fireballs and a epic back to back combat ensuing.

 

But the thing with calm, not battle music, hard to judge the music for dryford village until I personally play through it and see if it grows on me. 

[Lephys]

Just make the whole soundtrack Nightwish, . You know... nice and subtle.

 

"*Drums drums drums drums* *JIGGAJIGGAJIGGAJIGGAJIGGA* Merrrrrr-channnnts, andddd malll-connntennnnnt, linnnne the patttth tooooo the nohhhhh-ble's keeeeeeep!"

[Gromnir]

This bossfight music you can imagine a wizardry samurai twirling his katanas at rapid rates before opening his palm to blast enemies with fireballs and a epic back to back combat ensuing.

 

 

 

sorry. am recalling back in iwd2 were developed and people were asking for all kinda wacky kit suggestions with superpowers n' such. struck us all as sad and funny, so Gromnir, demanded that we able to play a bladesinger/anti-paladin drow who could dual wield halberds and cast fireballs. there were actual a few folks who responded serious to our demand. in any event, your description sudden reminds us o' our iwd2 suggestion.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Amentep]

am thinking that the repetitive nature o' a game can lead to almost Pavlovian disgust of the music.  there is games wherein game combat is perhaps not as engaging as one would hope. first time one hears the hypothetical "enemy is sighted" theme, perhaps they think that such music is ok... better yet, they don't even notice. sometimes good music is not perceived but simply experienced. the thing is, after some undefinable number o' combats, the player gets sick o' the thought o' another seemingly pointless flabarrgen encounter and the "epic" music being played in background feels a bit silly. disgust with the combat spills-over and now you not even need the combat-- "enemy is sighted" starts playing and already your teeth is set on edge.  congratulations, you has been conditioned to loathe the music when you is in fact irritated by the combat. however, and perhaps unfortunately, the reason you dislike the music is inconsequential. is now a concrete fact that the music irritates you and knowing the reason don't change a thing.

 

regardless, Gromnir is able to envision good music gone bad based 'pon its ubiquitous and incessant nature. am recognizing that this is more of a gameplay issue than music, but we will observe that if you does plan on having a particular theme play over and over and over and overandoverandoverandoverandoverandoverandoverandover, it might be better to shoot for understatement.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Well in that case I'd argue - as you recognize - the problem is really the player doesn't want to go into the combat the combat theme signals is forthcoming rather than a problem with the music itself, but it is a fair point that people would find themselves in that situation given the circumstance and repetition over time.

[TarponCrest]

I must say I am not surprised that the PE team is delivering quality and experience, I can’t help but notice a sense of pride or perhaps legacy in this work. Simply “magical”. Thank you for caring about the little things. They matter…

Such is my first impression with this update I felt compelled to play Icewind dale 2 again after a long time of not doing so. I still love Ice Wind Dale 2, the dark forest, the dragon, the music! I await the finished fruit of your labor with admiration and excitement. … Such a child I have become lately! Thank you!

[curryinahurry]

Just had a chance to re-listen to the track, and I really like it.  I think that it has the kind of pastoral feeling I would associate with small town/ countryside.  It also nicely captures the feeling of a day cycle or travel (whichever the intent was).  Like a few other comments, I would also agree that the one weak point is the introduction of the horns, not so much the result as once they melded in, the result is very nice and sets a more august tone.

 

Anyway, great update, both insights into process and also the results.

 

Cheers,

[rf5111918]

Hi Justin,

 

The music for the game sounds great! Just tossing these out there as inspiration!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkOiKy6sXfM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53x5zwEp3cY

 

 

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFO5ck1vaSE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIsQPdC9YnY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOkhaM3WDEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ItNxpwChE&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCFtBlKDIaM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikbdildbB-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1-ILVJxQLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZOJ0_sRznM

Edited April 18, 2014 by rf5111918

[Justin Bell]

 

I like the tune. When I first heard it this morning, only with iPod earplugs and on a noisy train, it really didn't strike me as particularly interesting. It sounded like it was going nowhere and it lacked a leading melody or a theme of sorts.

 

But now, when I actually listened to it with my gaming headphones, I'm much more impressed. Especially those deep, dark moments were awesome and I enjoy those little nuances. It kind of reminded me more of actual classical music, than gaming music. At least some parts. I'm - apart from listening to some stuff - a complete classical noob, so I don't want to go further into that.

 

I particularly liked the second part of the piece, but still, I miss some kind of overarching theme. But it's shaping out nicely.

Very similar to what i was thinking.

I also felt that it lacked a leading melody or an instrument, but perhaps this was intended because it's a town song.

But i don't think that has to be the case. When i first heard the IWD1 Kuldahar theme it gave a chill to how nicely the melody emphasize the town, that i waited outdoors just to hear the loop one more time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y96Y2JE5F8

The more and more i listen to Dyford theme, the more and more i like it, because i can now see that it does actually have leading instruments, but i feel they might be a bit too subtle. Like in 2:57 the bassoon could perhaps be a bit louder? Or at 3:39 i feel that the (what sounds like a) flute could be stronger?

Basically things like that.

 

 

To everyone who mentioned Kuldahar, I'm with you on that.  It sounds so magical, if I can even begin to approach the level of subtle depth in there (the universe just imploded by that paradox, I know), I'd be a happy composer.  I'll see what I can do, deal?  Not every piece is going to sound "like" Kuldahar though!!

 

And thanks to everyone for sending over links to music you think will be good for inspiration.  I'm listening to what you send, and it is inspiring!

Edited April 18, 2014 by Justin Bell

[Sensuki]

Yeah if you want it to have more of an IE-like sound, bringing some instruments forward in the mix would help in particular. The upper range strings could be done by a lone violin or cello in the foreground or something (may not be the best suggestion, just an example). Sometimes the IE games had more of a chamber music style soundstage, rather than a classical one.

 

That may not be what you're going for though, which is fine.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Sensuki

[Justin Bell]

 

Best theme music EVAR...

 

Justin please check it out.

 

 

http://youtu.be/8XKGhG0W0LQ

 

Plus stirring Soviet army vocals ftw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEt41bYQBgE

good stuff. am partial to ennio moricone for movie soundtracks/themes

 

 

we can be a bit cynical at times, but is tough to be complete jaded when you hear something so beautiful.

 

that being said, we thinks that jon brion is one o' the most under-appreciated composers doing movie themes today

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

WOW!  That Paranorman piece is incredibly deep.  Thank you for sharing this.   

[Hassat Hunter]

Might aswell add in some links, Dungeon Siege music. As I said before, many people may dislike the game, but it had some pretty impressive mood-setting music.

 

Besieged town #1 (stonebridge);

 

Ice-city of Glacern;

 

Final bossfight (not the usual tradional type of music used for them, but oh so much the better for it)

http://youtu.be/ZW5DmpV_NqI?t=1m52s

 

And of course... one of the best main themes ever;

 

EDIT:

Might as well add some Divinity II;

Edited April 18, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Niarei]

My fan art composition: https://soundcloud.com/consona-adversa-pars/twin-elms-theme

 

It's a theme for Twin Elms city. I really like the concept arts and lore behind the city so I tried to imagine what would Glanfathan music sound like. So it's without any orchestral elements, more like some traditional elven music. Enjoy and thank you for listening!

[Silent Winter]

My fan art composition: https://soundcloud.com/consona-adversa-pars/twin-elms-theme

 

It's a theme for Twin Elms city. I really like the concept arts and lore behind the city so I tried to imagine what would Glanfathan music sound like. So it's without any orchestral elements, more like some traditional elven music. Enjoy and thank you for listening!

cool

Post a link in the fan-art collecting tank for posterity too

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64531-fan-art-collecting-tank/