Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[BruceVC]

 

 

Personal attack?

 

What was said:

 

 

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

 

Oh, poor, poor Russia. You have gone through so much harassment throughout the 20th century. Like when those big bad Poles forced you to invade, then had themselves arrested by NKVD and shot, just to make you look bad.

 

Huh? I don't know what you've been reading but definitely not these boards. Maybe try posting your butthurt on RT.ru for effect?

 

 

the EU functions

 

DOES NOT COMPUTE

 

 

I see no personal attack.

What is relevance of saying " someone is butthurt" when you disagree with what they are saying?

 

This is a personal attack, I can give other examples around other posts but its not necessary

 

 

There's nothing necessarily personal about saying someone is 'butthurt'. Stop being butthurt because someone called someone you agree with all the time 'butthurt'.

 

In case there's anything lost in translation: 'butthurt' is synonymous with 'whining'. While I'm sure there's some unusual situation where it might be considered a personal attack, the vast majority of the time when someone tells someone to 'stop whining', it's not a personal attack. I've been told to 'stop whining' a few times in my life and even been called 'butthurt' by some internetdweebs on forums elsewhere, I never considered it a personal attack.

 

Here's an example of a personal attack: "Your momma is a @)#*$#@". (I don't mean your momma personally BruceVC ... this is just a generic example ).

 

Or even worse: 'You're bossy!!'

 

While Tagaziel seems to have been somewhat sarcastic in his remarks, he was indeed whining, albeit sarcastically (I think), to the 'butthurt' comment was apt.

 

 

Okay that's your definition of what a personal attack is and I respect it though I don't agree. Remember I am not just talking about this one example.

 

For the record I am also guilty of some personal attacks and particularly on this topic. For example when I called Sarex an extremist. But I apologized as I realised I was wrong. I guess what I am asking is for all us to try to take the emotion out of the discussion and attack the argument, not the person. The moment you make the debate personal you are less likely to have a constructive discussion

[Gromnir]

the real tragedy of all of this--

 

what happens to Ukraine's got Talent if this regional conflict continues?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine%27s+got+talente&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS560US560&oq=ukraine%27s+got+talente&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.7540j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&sei=E2VPU7yqKpOnyAS3vYHICA&gbv=2#gbv=2&q=ukraine's+got+talent&spell=1

 

am not certain we could live in a world without Ukraine reality TV.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valsuelm]

the real tragedy of all of this--

 

what happens to Ukraine's got Talent if this regional conflict continues?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine%27s+got+talente&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS560US560&oq=ukraine%27s+got+talente&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.7540j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&sei=E2VPU7yqKpOnyAS3vYHICA&gbv=2#gbv=2&q=ukraine's+got+talent&spell=1

 

am not certain we could live in a world without Ukraine reality TV.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The Finnish people are in danger of not seeing Miley Cyrus and Justin Timberlake as well. Poor innocent bystanders are going to be the hardest hit by those tough sanctions on Russia.

 

An aside: Is there a nation on earth where there aren't 'reality TV shows' and crap like 'blah blah has talent'? This cow diarrhea seems to be everywhere.

[Valsuelm]

Okay that's your definition of what a personal attack is and I respect it though I don't agree. Remember I am not just talking about this one example.

 

For the record I am also guilty of some personal attacks and particularly on this topic. For example when I called Sarex an extremist. But I apologized as I realised I was wrong. I guess what I am asking is for all us to try to take the emotion out of the discussion and attack the argument, not the person. The moment you make the debate personal you are less likely to have a constructive discussion

 

 

Well, It's taken me a few decades on planet earth, but I guess I finally found someone who disputes what the generally accepted definition of a 'personal attack' is. Anon.

 

I'll agree that in general debates are best when facts, ideas, views, etc are discussed. However, not all ideas, views, opinions, etc. are equal. More importantly though, it doesn't serve a discussion to be repeating the same thing over and over and over again, especially if it's erroneous. ie: The charge that there are 'pro-Russia' 'Russia is the good guy' people here. It's been pointed out more than once now that there aren't (at least no vocal folks) and the challenge has been issued to those making this charge (you, Tagaziel, Mor, (maybe others I forget)) to prove that there are by furnishing a quote or two, but it's ignored and the erroneous charge continues (at least from Tagaziel). If someone keeps blah blah blahing saying nothing constructive and something erroneous over and over, eventually, someone who generally does post constructive things is going to either call them out directly on it, or poke fun of them and jokingly suggest they go elsewhere for a better audience (as 213374U did to Tagaziel; Tagaziel's posts indeed would likely find more effect over at RT (assuming there are 'pro Russia' people there)).

 

I say things that some folks don't agree with, so do others. I, and others, don't keep repeating them over and over and over again at the people who don't agree with me though (as some in the forum do), and I don't make erroneous charges at other posters, nor do most people here. It's really tiresome to see the repetitiveness of some of the posters here, and it detracts from the discussion being had. Why some feel compelled to do this I'm not sure. Perhaps that's all they know to say, or perhaps they think by repeating it over and over it'll make it true or somehow magically convince someone who wasn't swayed by the same argument the first time. I imagine the why depends on the person.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Zoraptor]

The essence of butthurt is taking something oh so very seriously, and oh so very personally.

 

I don't think the Kiev protesters and the separatists are at all comparable. One was fighting against domination by a foreign power

That's a bit harsh, I'm sure the argument would be that the EU wouldn't be foreign once they'd joined- though the domination part is pretty accurate...

 

Meh, at least the easterners don't want to force the western parts into a union with Russia that they don't want and only want the right to do so themselves, which puts them a step above the westerners. Who don't have the same consideration when forcing their eastern brethren into an EU process that they don't want.

 

it's just that assistance for such movements by foreign powers is both unethical and illegal.

 

No, at least on the illegal part. The ICJ judgement on Kosovo established that it is not illegal to outright secede under the complete military occupation of an external power. And while it would be nice if '(un)ethical' meant anything in politics, it doesn't.

[obyknven]

Mariupol. At night clashes between National guard and unarmed civilians are happened. As result National guard shot crowd - 13 civilians are wounded (include one police officer), 1-3 people die. Ukrainian and Western media represent such  shootings  of unarmed civilians as anti-terroristic operation.

http://youtu.be/-sGxK8aYLTw
 

[BruceVC]

 

the real tragedy of all of this--

 

what happens to Ukraine's got Talent if this regional conflict continues?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine%27s+got+talente&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS560US560&oq=ukraine%27s+got+talente&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.7540j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&sei=E2VPU7yqKpOnyAS3vYHICA&gbv=2#gbv=2&q=ukraine's+got+talent&spell=1

 

am not certain we could live in a world without Ukraine reality TV.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The Finnish people are in danger of not seeing Miley Cyrus and Justin Timberlake as well. Poor innocent bystanders are going to be the hardest hit by those tough sanctions on Russia.

 

An aside: Is there a nation on earth where there aren't 'reality TV shows' and crap like 'blah blah has talent'? This cow diarrhea seems to be everywhere.

 

 

I also don't understand the unhealthy fascination IMO around certain reality shows. Some are really interesting like the cooking reality shows, MasterChef and Iron Chef, and Survivor as they highlight the skills of people or how people interact in harsh environments but shows like "Here comes Honey Boo Boo " I just find obscene

 

I watched 10 minutes of " Here comes Honey Boo Boo" and it made me nauseous, the fact that people are genuinely interested in the life of a spoilt and precocious 8 year old amazes me

Edited April 17, 2014 by BruceVC

[obyknven]

Western politicans in UN  tell cool stories about brutal opression of Tatars in Crimea.

 

Life of Tatars in Ukraine. "Rich" Tatar town in Crimea year ago. Getto detected.  Other towns even worse.

http://youtu.be/irfu9dO6hNY

 

Life of Tatars in Russia. Tatar town in Tatrstan.

http://vimeo.com/91614212

 

Obvious lie is obvious.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

the real tragedy of all of this--

 

what happens to Ukraine's got Talent if this regional conflict continues?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine%27s+got+talente&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS560US560&oq=ukraine%27s+got+talente&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.7540j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&sei=E2VPU7yqKpOnyAS3vYHICA&gbv=2#gbv=2&q=ukraine's+got+talent&spell=1

 

am not certain we could live in a world without Ukraine reality TV.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The Finnish people are in danger of not seeing Miley Cyrus and Justin Timberlake as well. Poor innocent bystanders are going to be the hardest hit by those tough sanctions on Russia.

 

An aside: Is there a nation on earth where there aren't 'reality TV shows' and crap like 'blah blah has talent'? This cow diarrhea seems to be everywhere.

 

 

I also don't understand the unhealthy fascination IMO around certain reality shows. Some are really interesting like the cooking reality shows, MasterChef and Iron Chef, and Survivor as they highlight the skills of people or how people interact in harsh environments but shows like "Here comes Honey Boo Boo " I just find obscene

 

I watched 10 minutes of " Here comes Honey Boo Boo" and it made me nauseous, the fact that people are genuinely interested in the life of a spoilt and precocious 8 year old amazes me

 

 

Our whole society seems to be build upon worshiping the entitled, so why should that amaze you?

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

the real tragedy of all of this--

 

what happens to Ukraine's got Talent if this regional conflict continues?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine%27s+got+talente&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS560US560&oq=ukraine%27s+got+talente&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.7540j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&sei=E2VPU7yqKpOnyAS3vYHICA&gbv=2#gbv=2&q=ukraine's+got+talent&spell=1

 

am not certain we could live in a world without Ukraine reality TV.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The Finnish people are in danger of not seeing Miley Cyrus and Justin Timberlake as well. Poor innocent bystanders are going to be the hardest hit by those tough sanctions on Russia.

 

An aside: Is there a nation on earth where there aren't 'reality TV shows' and crap like 'blah blah has talent'? This cow diarrhea seems to be everywhere.

 

 

I also don't understand the unhealthy fascination IMO around certain reality shows. Some are really interesting like the cooking reality shows, MasterChef and Iron Chef, and Survivor as they highlight the skills of people or how people interact in harsh environments but shows like "Here comes Honey Boo Boo " I just find obscene

 

I watched 10 minutes of " Here comes Honey Boo Boo" and it made me nauseous, the fact that people are genuinely interested in the life of a spoilt and precocious 8 year old amazes me

 

 

Our whole society seems to be build upon worshiping the entitled, so why should that amaze you?

 

 

That's a good question, I suppose the best answer is I don't consider the family of Honey Boo Boo entitled

 

I think the reason that reality shows have such an appeal is that people are disillusioned with the reality of  there lives and get a vicarious sense of fulfilment of seeing other people who are perceived as successful. But I would argue if you are happy with the direction your life is taking  most reality shows are less relevant

[obyknven]

Typical Ukrainian terrorists.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oEn5QOPceM&feature=share&list=UULdDp7EPuF3lYAmM0mMwsrw

[JadedWolf]

That's a good question, I suppose the best answer is I don't consider the family of Honey Boo Boo entitled

 

Now, I haven't seen the show - and from the sound of it I wouldn't want to do that to my poor braincells anyway - but that family, and especially the mother, seems entitled to me. A "stay-at-home" mother with four different children from four different men. Oh, I will admit motherhood is daunting job, but let's admit it: she doesn't look like she is a very active mother. Or a good one.

 

I found this gem on wikipedia

 

"June Shannon herself has been criticized for her daughter's diet, which includes "Go Go Juice", a mixture of Red Bull and Mountain Dew that contains as much caffeine as two cups of coffee. The drink is used to get her daughter ready for pageants. Shannon has responded to this criticism, saying. "There are far worse things...I could be giving her alcohol.""

 

Oh, that's alright then! Mam, you could even give her alcohol if you wanted to! Sure! If anyone would complain, you could just say there are worse things you could give her... Like rat poison!

 

I feel sorry for the kid. She might be spoiled in some things, but she's pretty much growing up to be her mother's little mini-me. And would you want to grow up like that?

Edited April 17, 2014 by JadedWolf

[BruceVC]

 

That's a good question, I suppose the best answer is I don't consider the family of Honey Boo Boo entitled

 

Now, I haven't seen the show - and from the sound of it I wouldn't want to do that to my poor braincells anyway - but that family, and especially the mother, seems entitled to me. A "stay-at-home" mother with four different children from four different men. Oh, I will admit motherhood is daunting job, but let's admit it: she doesn't look like she is a very active mother. Or a good one.

 

I found this gem on wikipedia

 

"June Shannon herself has been criticized for her daughter's diet, which includes "Go Go Juice", a mixture of Red Bull and Mountain Dew that contains as much caffeine as two cups of coffee. The drink is used to get her daughter ready for pageants. Shannon has responded to this criticism, saying. "There are far worse things...I could be giving her alcohol.""

 

Oh, that's alright then! Mam, you could even give her alcohol if you wanted to! Sure! If anyone would complain, you could just say there are worse things you could give her... Like rat poison!

 

I feel sorry for the kid. She might be spoiled in some things, but she's pretty much growing up to be her mother's little mini-me. And would you want to grow up like that?

 

 

No I would not like to grow up like that, since you commented on the show I'll be brutally honest. Its a mockery of what a family should be and how families should behave

 

But the scary thing is the show is relatively popular, so it begs the question why? And this for me is the saddest point. There would be several reasons why people enjoy watching it but there is no doubt that there are people who do think the family is on a winning ticket and aspire to like them. Despite the obvious dysfunctional nature of what makes the show popular

[Elerond]

 

the real tragedy of all of this--

 

what happens to Ukraine's got Talent if this regional conflict continues?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine%27s+got+talente&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS560US560&oq=ukraine%27s+got+talente&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.7540j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&sei=E2VPU7yqKpOnyAS3vYHICA&gbv=2#gbv=2&q=ukraine's+got+talent&spell=1

 

am not certain we could live in a world without Ukraine reality TV.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The Finnish people are in danger of not seeing Miley Cyrus and Justin Timberlake as well. 

 

 

I would say that is probably one of the positive things that this conflict has caused

[Malcador]

Really Malc? So I make personal attacks against people but I do it obliquely?

 

You seem to be confusing the fact that I vehemently disagree with people around a personal attack. They are not the same thing, oh and joking with someone also isn't a personal attack

Heh, so maybe he's just joking with them about being butthurt. After all your bit on him having insecurities isn't a backhanded jab.

[213374U]

I am interested why you feel the need for personal attacks against people who disagree with your point. I have raised this with you before around the unnecessary vitriolic nature of some of your comments. In all the time I have read comments from Tagaziel I don't think he has once made it personal. " Attack the argument, not the person"

 

I know its partly  a defensive mechanism and is caused by your own insecurities but you are a highly intelligent person and you don't need to debate on this devolved level. I would honestly think its below you.

 

Anyway I do enjoy your posts and comments, even though I disagree with lots of what you say, so please try to take what I'm saying constructively

 

I would suggest you don't waste your efforts trying so hard to get under my skin, but since that seems to be your sole reason for posting here, such advice is probably wasted. Bonus points for the "insecurities" remark, though that's pretty close to breaking character for you. You must be pretty butthurt that I (and others) unmasked you for the little cuddly, fluffy fascist troll you are to get so close to an actual direct personal attack.

 

But please, try to take what I'm saying constructively. :)

[213374U]

In other news...

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukrainian-troop-defections-escalate-tensions-in-eastern-ukraine/2014/04/16/4d36b1b6-c532-11e3-b574-f8748871856a_story.html

 

I was reading up on this, and if the incident with the APCs described is the same, it seems the only player with any actual desire to use force (either to intimidate or outright resolve some of these standoffs) is the Kiev gov't. The army is certainly not big on cracking down on the pro-Russians, and these in turn don't seem to be interested in antagonizing the army directly:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10771420/Ukraines-humiliation-as-protesters-disarm-troops.html

 

So an Ukrainian Army platoon is dispatched to break up a concentration of armed rebels or something along those lines... only to hand them their hardware and go back home in buses, perfectly unharmed. Ukrainian Army morale must be non existent at this point. So again I've been proven wrong and Putin has correctly surmised that he doesn't need to lift a finger for events to play right into his hands—though there's still the (slim) chance that Kiev will yield to demands to federalize the country rather than risk a total breakup or civil war.

 

And just to please those dying to see Russian apologists everywhere, I'm going to let someone else's words do the talking for me:

 

 

And while I don't support it I am intellectually obliged to recognise that it's being run quite well.

[213374U]

And more, increasingly violent clashes, as pro-Russian separatists attempt to storm a military base and are repelled by force, leaving several dead.

[obyknven]

Tiananmen-style

http://youtu.be/O_1BdV1bdes

[obyknven]

Same thing for Ukraninan citizens from Crimea. Entry denied for men aged 16 to 60 years, women can entry only after filtration camps.

[Elerond]

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine. If this is true, I would say that it's quite worrisome development.

[Tagaziel]

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine. If this is true, I would say that it's quite worrisome development.

Wasn't Kiev supposed to be the one with Nazis and fascists and whatever?

 

Joking, of course. This is a very troubling development, if it's indeed true. Though given the antisemitism in Russia, pro-Russians being ****nugget scumbags is not that surprising.

[obyknven]

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine. If this is true, I would say that it's quite worrisome development.

Fake. Somebody spread such papers in Eastern Ukraine. Previous fake orders tell to people pay "revolutionary" tax to government of Donetsk republic and starting using of Ration stamp's, Just typical attempt discredit  protesters. I even see somewhere information who really spread this info (politicans tied with Kievan junta ), but i am lazy and dont want waste time for search of this link.

 

[Sarex]

We should start watching Putin closely in next few days, if he starts growing a mustache we are in trouble.

[JadedWolf]

The article doesn't have an answer to the question whether this was actually carried out by anyone with authority, I'll refrain from judgment until that is clear. Hopefully it is just some fringe group, and not a sign of a broader sentiment among the East-Ukrainian militants.