Ukraine Redux

[Cultist]

I think this whole argument that the new Ukrainian government is influenced by Neo-Nazi's and right-wingers is grossly exaggerated. Russia is just using this as a another justification around the Crimean annexation. Where are all the credible examples of how pro-Russians in Ukraine have been killed and marginalized by these fascists?. I haven't seen  any serious discussion on any international news channel, except on RT, that highlights the perceived threat around these so-called right wing groups

 

@ Cultist

 You are being manipulated by the Russian propaganda machine, it suprises me as I always considered you a free thinker .. 

 Well, that's what propaganda for - to exagerrate opponent's discreditable factors. The beauty of the situation - russians do not have to seek for discreditable material. No need to bribe people to get some "hidden camera recordings" or snatch some documents - Svoboda party turned up so nice they provide all this themselves. All this neonazi marches, declarations to persecuite non-ukrainians and jews, violent actions - they are putting them on youtube or social medias. Like a criminal who records his crime and then wonders how cops busted him, he only posted it on his facebook. Or cops who record their beatings of arrested people. It's a crime not to use it against them.

It's not about who is right or wrong it's about who will use propaganda more effectively. We still have not seen WMDs in Iraq but at the time that was an amazing move to use them as acontext for invading Iraq. It's about the threat of russians being killed or marginalized that was the decisive factor - in Kosovo ethnic cleansings already happened, so that threats became a sort of ideal casus belli on a pretext of preventing such events.

In that, ironiocally, most radical parties of Ukraine's new coalition were the Russia's best allies by providing enough media material that allowed Moscow to use it to justify Crimea annexing.

And I always appreciate good propaganda moves.

 

I think that Obama is a Muslim example would be far more appropriate example in this case..

Also I wish someone will make a comparison between Russian and Ukrainian far-right movements, to put things into perspective. i.e. all those movements that has been breading since Putin came to power with his soft nationalistic pitch, even if he plays whackemall as far as who get to be in charge.

The reason is to dig more **** to throw at your opponents, than they will throw at you. Russians got enough of ukrainian far-right nutjobs' youtube statements and broadcasts and used it effectively to discredit Ukrainian coalition. Coalition, in turn, failed to denounce or force their far-right allies to change the rhetoric to more tolerant, which have been used by Moscow in turn to cement the association of entire Coalition with their radical members. Which, in turn, alienated ethnic russians in eastern Ukraine.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Cultist

[Elerond]

I am very sure that Russian annexation of Crimea was nothing to do with new oil and gas source founded from there and it's area of Black Sea, in same way as I am sure that USA didn't attack in in Iraq to make sure that it has access to it's oil fields. Especially when one first things what Crimea announced that it will do is to nationalize said oil and gas reserves from Ukraine's companies to itself.  

[TrashMan]

 

A drop in the ocean, given that Croatia didn't have an army or equipment.

JNA had everything. We captured most of what the CA used.

 

That doesn't matter when you are fighting poorly armed civilians. The biggest support of the west was the deterrent to Serbia to use any real force.

 

Except they did and the "civilians" were anything but poorly armed.

 

 

 

 

I guess you were. Like you were imagining those videos of our generals telling lies and other things you mention. That is the pattern thus far with you.

 

I must be imagining your sanity too then.

 

 

 

Over a thousand civilian casualties and 200 thousand exiled in a week during operation Storm are disagreeing with you.

 

Correlation does not equal causation.

Logical fallacies 101

 

 

 

You keep mentioning that number, could you provide a source for that? Doesn't have to be in English.

 

I see you still haven't learned to use wikipedia.

 

 

 

We have a history that any country can be proud of, we always stood our ground, even when the odds were against us, even when the bad choice was the smart one for us. What can your country say about it's history?

 

Other than my country didn't launch invasions and wars of conquest?

Other than it was called "the Shield of Europe" for it constant defense against turkish incursions?

Other than it sent the JNA crying back home?

 

Not much.

[Malcador]

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

[Tagaziel]

Oh so you want Russians to die or to be discriminated against first? Because a party with openly recorded Nazi ideology taking security posts is no cause for concern at all? Ethnic Russians should just sit quietly and shut-up when racist russophobes are in charge of defense posts? No potential problem from this at such a devise and volatile time?

Should males be preemptively sterilized as potential rapists? As much as I hate neo-Nazi scum, you cannot imprison people for thought crime. Pre-emptive persecution and imprisonment is the domain of totalitarian regimes. Take your pick, the 20th century has load of examples to offer.

 

I am very sure that Russian annexation of Crimea was nothing to do with new oil and gas source founded from there and it's area of Black Sea, in same way as I am sure that USA didn't attack in in Iraq to make sure that it has access to it's oil fields. Especially when one first things what Crimea announced that it will do is to nationalize said oil and gas reserves from Ukraine's companies to itself.

I'd argue the U.S. didn't invade Iraq (solely) for oil, because destroying it destabilized the region and served the opposite purpose, making the supply of oil volatile and jacking up its prices. Retaining access would've been simpler if the U.S. appeased Saddam or attempted to replace him.

 

Putin doesn't give a rat's ass about legitimacy or consequences, though, as long as his short term interests are protected.

 

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

Evidence is always useful and so far there's no reports of widespread far right violence in Ukraine.

[Elerond]

I find it some what ironic when Russia moan about politicians and political parties that lean towards neo-nazism and xenophobia in Ukraine, when they have right wing politician that want throw all foreign born citizen from country, make threats against their neighboring countries, create laws that stop victimized minorities to even tell about violence against them without risking time in prison and who semi openly support violence against said minorities. And they have political youth movements that say they are anti-fascist, even though they preach against foreign born citizen, seem to accept violence in their protest and preach against their neighboring countries.  Especially considering that they are very adamant that western countries should not interfere in their internal politics anyway and are very upset when people remark that their politics lean towards neo-nazism. 

[BruceVC]

 

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

 

Malc I'm hurt that you would suggest such a thing, you know me... I do change my mind and agree with people. Produce the evidence and I'll review it and then get back to you

[Meshugger]

I do not see it strange that neo-nazis gaining movement in countries sharing the border with Russia. It is simply the natural consequence of things in post-WWII Europe since they are the only ones that have any anti-russian or russian-sceptic sentiments.

 

 

I think.

[Sarex]

Except they did and the "civilians" were anything but poorly armed.

 

Well ww2 era guns must be heavy armaments for the mighty Croatian Army.

 

 

I must be imagining your sanity too then.

 

And here I was thinking, you are going to prove your claims by showing those videos.

 

 

Correlation does not equal causation.

Logical fallacies 101

 

Occam's razor.

 

 

I see you still haven't learned to use wikipedia.

 

I see you still avoid showing proof for your claims. I did try to find some source to corroborate your claim, couldn't find anything. A person would think that you would be all to happy to show proof for you claims, instead you think calling me lazy is gonna prove anything.

 

 

Other than my country didn't launch invasions and wars of conquest?

Other than it was called "the Shield of Europe" for it constant defense against turkish incursions?

Other than it sent the JNA crying back home?

 

Not much.

 

What invasions?

 

Shield of what. Are you serious? The only reasons for which they didn't attack you was because they had heavy losses from their conflict with us. If you count small raids from the Ottoman empire as a war, then sure be proud. Oh right you had a battle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krbava_Field.

 

Again do you really think you did anything during the war? If you count burning villages and chasing away civilians, then yes your mighty Croatian army sent us home crying. Be real, had not the West intervened you wouldn't have stood a snowballs chance in hell of doing anything, let alone defeating the YNA (Especially if the main and the largest force joined the war). The only reason the conflict started was because your country had guarantees from the west that if you started a war they would come.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I find it strange that Nazi ideology has support from places where the Nazis saw inhabitants as sub-human. Then again, the extreme right has never been the sharpest bunch.

[Tagaziel]

I do not see it strange that neo-nazis gaining movement in countries sharing the border with Russia. It is simply the natural consequence of things in post-WWII Europe since they are the only ones that have any anti-russian or russian-sceptic sentiments.

 

I think.

 

It's more of a case of really, really bad historical experiences. Nazis were horrible people, but their violence was concentrated in a very small timeframe. The Soviets, woah boy, that was an entirely different case. Apart from being just as bad at the Nazis and even worse than them in many aspects, their occupation and corrupt influence lasted decades, killing tens of thousands, displacing hundreds of thousands, and ruining entire societies and economies like the corrupt empire the USSR was. The impact is still felt to this day.

 

I wouldn't say that support for Neo-Nazi and other far right scum is on the rise, though. It's more of a case of them creating the illusion of being the most active party, rather than people subscribing to far right ideologies. It's also the reason we likely won't see far right crap too much, since that would destroy the parties' support overnight. Mostly because it would seem like just the thing Russia would be doing.

 

A shame, really. Russians deserve a better government because they're good people, victims of a criminal system that destroyed society unchecked for decades.

[Rostere]

 

I am very sure that Russian annexation of Crimea was nothing to do with new oil and gas source founded from there and it's area of Black Sea, in same way as I am sure that USA didn't attack in in Iraq to make sure that it has access to it's oil fields. Especially when one first things what Crimea announced that it will do is to nationalize said oil and gas reserves from Ukraine's companies to itself.

I'd argue the U.S. didn't invade Iraq (solely) for oil, because destroying it destabilized the region and served the opposite purpose, making the supply of oil volatile and jacking up its prices. Retaining access would've been simpler if the U.S. appeased Saddam or attempted to replace him.

 

Exactly. I do think that there were people who thought it might be a better idea to invade Iraq because of the oil, but it was probably not the deciding factor in itself. But let's look at the politicians who took the decisions here and here. Note that in the memo, they talk about manufacturing a threat towards the Kurds, a connection between 9/11 and Iraq, or some dispute over WMDs. "Unlike in Afghanistan, important to have ideas about who will rule afterwards". Note that the timeline mentions Rumsfeld selling a "War on Terror" with PR efforts even before 9/11, and that small-scale CIA operations to smear Saddam to (indirectly) garner support in the US for a regime change had been in place already in the early nineties. The PNAC think-tank, which is in all but name synonymous with the GWB administration, had existed earlier (since 1997), as had the JINSA think-tank which also had a significant overlap with the GWB administration. The people who made the decision to invade Iraq had all held their views that Iraq should be invaded long before the actual invasion.

 

Certainly oil was a part of it, but among the actual politicians most did not have direct connections to the oil industry. They were essentially the people who always advocated more military expenditures against the SU during the eighties and late seventies (if they were politically active at the time), and who supported every shady US-backed coup during the Cold War. Good old fashioned jingoists, chauvinists or "neocons" - the label for these people always seem to change during the periods their opinions fall out of fashion. I would encourage anyone who is interested to simply take a look at all the people close to Bush on Wikipedia and see what they have been doing earlier, it's really the best thing to do if you're interested in why they wanted the war in Iraq. The similarities between the US neocons and Putin's following in Russia (yes, the people who actually vote for him and think he's good) is probably marginal or none, it's just that they have different nations as a starting point for their ideologies.

 

A country which has never really been considered part of Europe, with a culture that's never really been considered European, with no cultural/ethnic connections or heritage shared with western Europe prior to 40-30,000 BCE. 99.7% comedy gold.

 

What? I would beg to differ... Also, what does it matter what you wrote about ethnic connections in 30000 BCE? Almost none - certainly none I can think of - of the peoples whom we make distinctions between today existed, or lived where they currently do. I would say there is no traceable culture left from that era, so what happened back then has no connection to today's cultures. Russians are a Slavic people, whose culture descends from the Indo-European culture, which pretty much every culture in Europe also descends from. They are pretty much just as European as most of eastern Europe.

[213374U]

 

 

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

 

Malc I'm hurt that you would suggest such a thing, you know me... I do change my mind and agree with people. Produce the evidence and I'll review it and then get back to you

 

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/ukranian-tv-beaten-up-far-right-parliament_n_4988366.html

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/19/kiev-inspects-russia-for-alleged-military-buildup-while-escalating-violence-crimea-snipers-kill-2/ (read the part about Alexander Mamaj)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kharkov-radicals-attack-982/

 

Took me a full five minutes to dig that up. How's that blindfold working out for you?

 

I think it's pretty cool how, now that it's no longer possible to dispute the fact that nazis are part of the Ukrainian gov't, it simply doesn't matter as long as they don't go on genocidal rampages. Reminder: the actual, real deal, German nazis didn't go on ethnic hatred-fueled rampages either... until they did. Kristallnacht didn't happen until '38, but ol' Adolf was appointed Chancellor in '33. Ah, but I guess history, much like constitutional law, isn't our forte, right guys?

 

Enjoy your doublethink!

Edited March 19, 2014 by 213374U

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

 

Malc I'm hurt that you would suggest such a thing, you know me... I do change my mind and agree with people. Produce the evidence and I'll review it and then get back to you

 

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/ukranian-tv-beaten-up-far-right-parliament_n_4988366.html

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/19/kiev-inspects-russia-for-alleged-military-buildup-while-escalating-violence-crimea-snipers-kill-2/ (read the part about Alexander Mamaj)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kharkov-radicals-attack-982/

 

Took me a full five minutes to dig that up. How's that blindfold working out for you?

 

I think it's pretty cool how, now that it's no longer possible to dispute the fact that nazis are part of the Ukrainian gov't, it simply doesn't matter as long as they don't go on genocidal rampages. Reminder: the actual, real deal, German nazis didn't go on ethnic hatred-fueled rampages either... until they did. Kristallnacht didn't happen until '38, but ol' Adolf was appointed Chancellor in '33. Ah, but I guess history, much like constitutional law, isn't our forte, right guys?

 

Enjoy your doublethink!

 

 

Hi 2133

 

I reject anything from RT due to its profound bias, I also reject the link about the TV chief getting attacked because its not in English and you can't possibly expect me to comment on something I don't understand

 

That just leaves your final link, before I comment who is http://nsnbc.me/  anyway? I have never heard of them...are they credible? I am worried about  where you get information from 2133, I don't want you to be influenced and manipulated by websites that have a some sort of anti-western agenda

[Sarex]

Hi 2133

 

I reject anything from RT due to its profound bias, I also reject the link about the TV chief getting attacked because its not in English and you can't possibly expect me to comment on something I don't understand

 

That just leaves your final link, before I comment who is http://nsnbc.me/  anyway? I have never heard of them...are they credible? I am worried about  where you get information from 2133, I don't want you to be influenced and manipulated by websites that have a some sort of anti-western agenda

 

Are you even listening to your self? OK, so you dismissed two of the links with "credible" excuses, and when you couldn't find a fault with the third one, you dismiss it just because. Damn dude, you really are brainwashed.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile Right Sector begin compaighn of terror in Eastern Ukraine.

http://youtu.be/wvcPnY0QG7k

 

But for Western people this is imaginary violence Suffering of Slavs is not important if this can make harm to Russians also.

 

[Meshugger]

 

I do not see it strange that neo-nazis gaining movement in countries sharing the border with Russia. It is simply the natural consequence of things in post-WWII Europe since they are the only ones that have any anti-russian or russian-sceptic sentiments.

 

I think.

 

It's more of a case of really, really bad historical experiences. Nazis were horrible people, but their violence was concentrated in a very small timeframe. The Soviets, woah boy, that was an entirely different case. Apart from being just as bad at the Nazis and even worse than them in many aspects, their occupation and corrupt influence lasted decades, killing tens of thousands, displacing hundreds of thousands, and ruining entire societies and economies like the corrupt empire the USSR was. The impact is still felt to this day.

 

I wouldn't say that support for Neo-Nazi and other far right scum is on the rise, though. It's more of a case of them creating the illusion of being the most active party, rather than people subscribing to far right ideologies. It's also the reason we likely won't see far right crap too much, since that would destroy the parties' support overnight. Mostly because it would seem like just the thing Russia would be doing.

 

A shame, really. Russians deserve a better government because they're good people, victims of a criminal system that destroyed society unchecked for decades.

 

 

Of course i wasn't that serious, but on the other hand they seem to thrive on the very same old anti-communist propaganda that existed before the war.

[BruceVC]

 

Hi 2133

 

I reject anything from RT due to its profound bias, I also reject the link about the TV chief getting attacked because its not in English and you can't possibly expect me to comment on something I don't understand

 

That just leaves your final link, before I comment who is http://nsnbc.me/  anyway? I have never heard of them...are they credible? I am worried about  where you get information from 2133, I don't want you to be influenced and manipulated by websites that have a some sort of anti-western agenda

 

Are you even listening to your self? OK, so you dismissed two of the links with "credible" excuses, and when you couldn't find a fault with the third one, you dismiss it just because. Damn dude, you really are brainwashed.

 

 

I am merely questioning the source, how come the international news channels don't have this information. Send me a link that is similar to what 2133 posted but is from CNN, Sky, BBC or Al-Jazeera. They generally check and corroborate there information

[Meshugger]

Wait, you have more confidence in Al-Jazeera than in RT? 

 

I mean really, whose sock puppet account is this? really?

[kgambit]

 

I am merely questioning the source, how come the international news channels don't have this information. Send me a link that is similar to what 2133 posted but is from CNN, Sky, BBC or Al-Jazeera. They generally check and corroborate there information

 

 

BBC has confirmed the TV station incident. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26653295

Edited March 19, 2014 by kgambit

[Elerond]

 

 

I am merely questioning the source, how come the international news channels don't have this information. Send me a link that is similar to what 2133 posted but is from CNN, Sky, BBC or Al-Jazeera. They generally check and corroborate there information

 

 

BBC has confirmed the TV station incident. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26653295

 

 

I would say that with their own reasoning they should get treason charges, as they give propaganda material to enemy hands in war time, which would probably lead in their executions as in war time there is usually only one punishment for those who commit treason.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Elerond

[213374U]

 

 

 

 

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

 

Malc I'm hurt that you would suggest such a thing, you know me... I do change my mind and agree with people. Produce the evidence and I'll review it and then get back to you

 

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/ukranian-tv-beaten-up-far-right-parliament_n_4988366.html

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/19/kiev-inspects-russia-for-alleged-military-buildup-while-escalating-violence-crimea-snipers-kill-2/ (read the part about Alexander Mamaj)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kharkov-radicals-attack-982/

 

Took me a full five minutes to dig that up. How's that blindfold working out for you?

 

I think it's pretty cool how, now that it's no longer possible to dispute the fact that nazis are part of the Ukrainian gov't, it simply doesn't matter as long as they don't go on genocidal rampages. Reminder: the actual, real deal, German nazis didn't go on ethnic hatred-fueled rampages either... until they did. Kristallnacht didn't happen until '38, but ol' Adolf was appointed Chancellor in '33. Ah, but I guess history, much like constitutional law, isn't our forte, right guys?

 

Enjoy your doublethink!

 

 

Hi 2133

 

I reject anything from RT due to its profound bias, I also reject the link about the TV chief getting attacked because its not in English and you can't possibly expect me to comment on something I don't understand

 

That just leaves your final link, before I comment who is http://nsnbc.me/  anyway? I have never heard of them...are they credible? I am worried about  where you get information from 2133, I don't want you to be influenced and manipulated by websites that have a some sort of anti-western agenda

 

 

Hmm.

 

So, basically, you reject anything that isn't delivered by Beeb. Okay bro. But, see, the problem is that that sort of hand waving works for everyone—I can just as easily dismiss everything everyone else has posted ITT as "profoundly biased" and driven by "some sort of anti-Russian agenda". And the accusation would be true in both cases! Beautiful, don't you think?

 

I don't expect you to believe anything I post. But I do expect you to read the links and do your own research. You know, as opposed to just coming up with flimsy reasons to convince yourself that they aren't valid so you can feel better. But don't kid yourself, there are no good guys in this; only bad guys and "our" bad guys.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I thought as much, you won't be able to find evidence of fascist attacks against Russian speaking Ukrainians because its not true. I'm not attacking you personally Fighter, I'm just highlighting how ridiculous part of  the justification from Russia is around the annexing of Crimea. Lets just be honest, Russia wants a buffer zone between it and EU\NATO friendly countries and Crimea is part of that. This situation has NOTHING to do with a threat from fascists and persecution of Russian speaking Ukrainians

Even if he did give evidence, what would be the point - you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

 

Malc I'm hurt that you would suggest such a thing, you know me... I do change my mind and agree with people. Produce the evidence and I'll review it and then get back to you

 

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/ukranian-tv-beaten-up-far-right-parliament_n_4988366.html

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/19/kiev-inspects-russia-for-alleged-military-buildup-while-escalating-violence-crimea-snipers-kill-2/ (read the part about Alexander Mamaj)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kharkov-radicals-attack-982/

 

Took me a full five minutes to dig that up. How's that blindfold working out for you?

 

I think it's pretty cool how, now that it's no longer possible to dispute the fact that nazis are part of the Ukrainian gov't, it simply doesn't matter as long as they don't go on genocidal rampages. Reminder: the actual, real deal, German nazis didn't go on ethnic hatred-fueled rampages either... until they did. Kristallnacht didn't happen until '38, but ol' Adolf was appointed Chancellor in '33. Ah, but I guess history, much like constitutional law, isn't our forte, right guys?

 

Enjoy your doublethink!

 

 

Hi 2133

 

I reject anything from RT due to its profound bias, I also reject the link about the TV chief getting attacked because its not in English and you can't possibly expect me to comment on something I don't understand

 

That just leaves your final link, before I comment who is http://nsnbc.me/  anyway? I have never heard of them...are they credible? I am worried about  where you get information from 2133, I don't want you to be influenced and manipulated by websites that have a some sort of anti-western agenda

 

 

Hmm.

 

So, basically, you reject anything that isn't delivered by Beeb. Okay bro. But, see, the problem is that that sort of hand waving works for everyone—I can just as easily dismiss everything everyone else has posted ITT as "profoundly biased" and driven by "some sort of anti-Russian agenda". And the accusation would be true in both cases! Beautiful, don't you think?

 

I don't expect you to believe anything I post. But I do expect you to read the links and do your own research. You know, as opposed to just coming up with flimsy reasons to convince yourself that they aren't valid so you can feel better. But don't kid yourself, there are no good guys in this; only bad guys and "our" bad guys.

 

 

Fair enough, I agree that if we just say " this website is bias" then we won't get anywhere to understanding different perspectives

 

All I ask is that you don't post links from RT, thats not being unreasonable ? I did read the other link so I am not just dismissing all contrary opinions

  

[Zoraptor]

The problem with Svoboda and Right Sector, from the western propaganda perspective, is exactly what Cultist said. They aren't ashamed of what they're doing, they're proud of it and believe what they're doing will help The Cause, so are happy to document and promote it. Hanging pictures of Stepan Bandera in Kiev's city hall is a godsend for Russia's propaganda every bit as much as the language law repeal was, or forcing resignations under threat of violence- something that happened extensively during the revolution and goes to show how no votes in the Rada under the current circumstances can not be taken at face value or as being free of duress.

 

I don't have much doubt that Fatherland and UDAR would make them disappear if they could- then again, I have little doubt that larger players in most coalitions would happily make their smaller partners disappear if they could- but they are needed and would not respond well to being marginalised. As such all they can really do is try to control and channel their more... radical inclinations and pronouncements.

[Mor]

 

 

It's nice that those things are a bigger priority to you and western world than ethnic Russian people and what it means for them when Nazis hold defense posts that would among other things potentially make them at this very moment participants in, for example, dealing with security control of parts of the country populated by people they don't like.

 

Yes this is our "selfish interests" not to have Nazis participate in that.

Do you have a credible reference that those Neo-Nazis are on a rampage throughout Ukraine? That they are implementing "self defense" brigades that are targeting ethnic Russians? Preparing to commit genocide or ethnic cleansing?

 

Because so far, Crimea is the problem. And Tatars fear further problems.

 

Furthermore, if Russia really wanted to protect Russians, it would not invade and occupy Ukraine, pressing the berserk button of a nation long oppressed by Russia.

 

 

Also just to reiterate this point, even up to yesterday during Putin's speech the Russian stance has been about " needing to protect the Russian speaking Ukrainians from fascists and attacks and persecution"

 

Okay we get that, Russian speaking communities in the Crimea and Ukraine  are besieged by aggressive Neo-Nazi's. Now can we get some evidance....just one or two sources outside of RT.

 

Yes "protect" ethnic Russians in Crimea, followed by a speech that Crimea was always part of Russia.. Like I said before:

That exactly it, we are worried about rise of nationalism in many places all round the world ( including Russia ), but our worries about the specific situation in Ukraine, doesn't translate in any way or form to an excuse Russian aggression in Ukraine, violation of its agreements and just plan simple excuse for quick real estate grab.

As far as I am concerned anyone who can't separate the internal issue in Ukraine from Russian aggression, or worse who excuse the later with former as if Russian land grab is in any way or form intended to solve any of Ukraine issues they claim to care about is just a retard.

 

Also agree with Bruce, I have yet to see any evidence of anything remotely notable in Crimea or Ukraine compared to other places worldwide and certainly no to the effect of Russian media fear mongering. For example compared to what happening in Russia/Caucuses to non Russian minorities Russian claims are hypocritical joke. As I said before I really wish someone compare Russia propaganda to the situation in Russia itself over the last decade, which has huge rise in nationalism, from neo-nazi (for white power, Russia for Russians etc), to attacks on immigrants, to several political parties who had far larger voter base then anything in Ukraine etc. (There is a reason why some called Russia "Weimar Russia" comparing the situation there to post ww1 Germany, because even though it is officially against fascism it is headed there) for perspective sake.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Mor