Thoughts on damage types

[ItinerantNomad]

So Josh had a question on Something Awful

ropekid, have you guys settled on what damage types PE will have?

 

Josh responded:

Slash, pierce, crush, burn, freeze, corrode, and shock.

 

I wanted to know a few things.

 

1- is shock considered electrical damage?

 

2- Why not have a concussive damage type as well. This would work well with explosion type spells, wing buffet type attacks, and even crushing attacks which occur in heavy plate type armor (person getting knocked about in armor). The mechanic could be made even more interesting by having a malus for players who wear heavy plate type armor and get attacked by this type. Padded armor might be better suited for concussive type damage.

 

i just thought of the concussive damage type because Tim Cain had mentioned certain spell combinations causing increased damage and he gave the example way back during the kickstarer of fire and something causing an explosion. I just noticed there's no explosion-type damage.

 

3- can you go over whether each damage type has any other characteristics other than different DTs to different armors?

 

4- what would poison damage, hunger damage, curse, or magic damage go under?

Edited February 12, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[Lephys]

1- is shock considered electrical damage?

I would imagine so. It could be "shock" as in trauma, but... that seems awfully weird as a damage type, rather than an effect type.

 

2- Why not have a concussive damage type as well. This would work well with explosion type spells, wing buffet type attacks, and even crushing attacks which occur in heavy plate type armor (person getting knocked about in armor). The mechanic could be made even more interesting by having a malus for players who wear heavy plate type armor and get attacked by this type. Padded armor might be better suited for concussive type damage.

Well... "crush" almost is concussive. It's simply impact versus inertia. If a boulder hits you, and compresses your armor and your ribs and your body before you're able to be pushed out of the way by it, then you're crushed, even if you're not crushed against anything else. *shrug*. They could potentially still have concussive effects, and simply represent them with crush-type damage, methinks. I know it's not quite the same thing, but... it's very close.

 

4- what would poison damage, hunger damage, curse, or magic damage go under?

Interesting question. 8P

 

With things like poison or hunger, I don't think a damage type is functionally necessary, since damage is damage, and you can't really ever attack a protective factor with hunger or poison (like weapon types versus armor). I mean, a poison either gets to your bloodstream/internal tissue, or doesn't. At that point, attack resolution determines whether or not you actually take any damage, or only partial damage, etc. Same with hunger. You can't swing a hunger at someone, and have their skin negate part of its effects. They either are hungry enough (relative to their physiology/metabolism) to take damage, or they are not. *shrug*. Of course, there may be times when you want someone to be more resistant to hunger than to poison, for example. BUT, mechanically, having them as simply different damage-producing effect types, instead of actual damage types, probably works fine.

 

Then, there's magic. It can obviously create regular physical results (corrosion, fire/burn, crush, etc.) in terms of damage type, but, usually there's some damage type that's unique to the energies of magic. In the case of PoE, it's soul-energy, I suppose. So, a good example is the Cipher. If they store up focus and tear at people's souls with it upon attacks with their focus-imbued weapon, then what kind of damage is that? That, and the whole potential for things like Magic Missile (usually "arcane" or "spirit" damage types, or something along those lines).

 

So, again, good question.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

4- what would poison damage, hunger damage, curse, or magic damage go under?

 

Poison sounds like corrode. Curse could be determined on what type of curse it is. From Wikipedia, The word 'corrosion' is derived from the Latin verb corrodere, which means 'to gnaw', indicating how these substances seem to 'gnaw' their way through the flesh. Doubt if our characters will get hungry.

 

Be good to get a confirmation on these.

[Sir Chaox]

 

 

4- what would poison damage, hunger damage, curse, or magic damage go under?

 

Poison sounds like corrode. Curse could be determined on what type of curse it is. From Wikipedia, The word 'corrosion' is derived from the Latin verb corrodere, which means 'to gnaw', indicating how these substances seem to 'gnaw' their way through the flesh. Doubt if our characters will get hungry.

 

Be good to get a confirmation on these.

 

 

I think I'm gonna corrode this sandwich.

 

[Lephys]

Poison COULD actually deteriorate the flesh. OR, it could simply cease biological functions. It doesn't necessarily have to directly damage flesh to work. So, I can see how it's not quite the same thing. But, at the same time, in the context of an abstract system, I could see the game using "corrode" as the damage type if it needed one for poison. Because, well... it's close enough. . The specifics aren't really represented in-game, most likely.

[Sir Chaox]

Slash, pierce, crush, burn, freeze, corrode, and shock.

 

4- what would poison damage, hunger damage, curse, or magic damage go under?

 

I think magic and curses might depend on the exact spell; it might differ for each one.

 

Explosions could be a combination of crush, like Lephys said, with burn. Other damage sources might combine types in this manner as well (physical damage type + elemental damage type or doubling up on a single category).

 

These damage types might combine with status effects (another list) to produce an effect like concussion; you get crushing damage and then you are stunned for X seconds/rounds.

[ItinerantNomad]

crush damage doesn't really make sense with concussive. if you get hit by a blast of sonic waves you don't take crush damage, you take concussive damage. if you hit the wall you don't get crushed by the wall, you take concussive damage to your internal organs without breaking skin. crush damage usually means you have broken the skin. similarly, crush damage requires one to "fight through" a heavy metal shield or armor whereas concussion damage is caused by the body being knocked about in the heavy metal armor.

 

it can make for interesting mechanical implementations outside of these pedantic arguments. As an example, I spoke about plate metal armor. If you take a mace to a person in plate mail, the mace must first travel through the metal to hit the person to cause crush injury (thereby reducing damage due to protection). However throwing a person in plate mail would likely cause more damage to them because the armor at this point becomes the weapon against the body.

 

a simple analogy: take an egg, and put it in a bottle. now try to hit it with a spoon. then take the bottle and throw it against a wall. which one breaks the egg?

 

more "info" on crush vs concussive damage.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/masstrauma/preparedness/primer.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_injury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~dons/part_3/chapter_29.html - text on pathology and trauma.

 

btw, answer: likely neither throwing nor hitting with a spoon would break the egg. it was a hypothetical experiment. stop wasting eggs.

Edited February 13, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It is surprising that his response only included these types. One would expect "magical" or "spiritual" damage to make an appearance, given the "soul magic" thematic of P:E. As far as this list goes, "shock" may be the most broadly defined. While in a literal sense it lends to electrical damage, it could also be defined in the medical sense of traumatic injury or distress which could then be applied towards hunger, poison, and magical damage. Ultimately, I imagine that many more damage types will be included.

[Sir Chaox]

One would expect "magical" or "spiritual" damage to make an appearance, given the "soul magic" thematic of P:E.

 

Maybe "magical" or "spiritual" is simply the means to do the damage; the actual damage inflicted falls into one of the categories listed above.

 

As far as this list goes, "shock" may be the most broadly defined. While in a literal sense it lends to electrical damage, it could also be defined in the medical sense of traumatic injury or distress...

 

Good point. We could use some definitions.

 

I think it would make sense to expect more types unless the ones listed above are being used in a very broad sense to cover a lot of ground.

[ZornWO]

i just thought of the concussive damage type because Tim Cain had mentioned certain spell combinations causing increased damage and he gave the example way back during the kickstarer of fire and something causing an explosion. I just noticed there's no explosion-type damage.

 

It seemed as if TC there was saying that fire could create a status effect, being set aflame or the like, no?

 

 

 

you can't really ever attack a protective factor with hunger or poison (like weapon types versus armor).

 

The wiki pg on defense mentions, "Fortitude (FOR): Represents a character's endurance to "body system attacks" such as poison or disease. It is based on Might and Constitution."  It's fairly surprising there's no poison dmg, but it's probably not terrible that way.

[ItinerantNomad]

the issue isn't with the names as much as it is with the mechanics. "Shock" damage wouldn't necessary have the same mechanic in electrical, poison, concussive damage types nor would armors have the same values for these.

 

as for fire and ice, i would imagine that these would have DoT effects that might negate each other. Similarly, I wonder if corrosive has a change to "break" items. these would be interesting mechanical implementations outside of just mere DT reductions.

[Sabotin]

I think it's totally fine like this.

 

Building the systems from the ground up I get the feeling they're getting the bones to stand up first, before adding the flesh and fur so to speak, which is probably a good thing.

 

There's 7 damage types, which is quite a lot already, especially considering as far as we've seen there will be combinations of these on both weapons and spells. I believe the intention is to balance the importance damage types with other game functions, so as to not have the player looking solely at that. For example in DA2 you wouldn't think twice to equip your entire party with suboptimal weapons that did a certain damage type, because that meant double damage and the difference between a 10min fight and a 1min fight (this game needs its own textbook, it comes up so often...). PE will be more about efficiency than absolutes, so I think this fits with that.

 

The inherent effects can be tricky to balance if systematic, as in you change something in it and it changes everything where the effect is present. It is entirely possible however than certain damage types will tend to have certain effects. I believe it was mentioned that blunt weapons are more effective against armor? This way it's also easier to make similar spells with different functions. For example you have a fireball that blasts stuff instantly and you may have incendiary cloud that does burn damage over time.

 

The unnamed stuff may not be in fact doing damage, but rather have some debuff effect (e.g. poison/disease in 3e lowered your base stats).

[Pipyui]

1- is shock considered electrical damage?

 

Not to be snarky, but ...

 

[Tamerlane]

What about damage caused by the realization of life's meaninglessness? Or the damage inflicted when you look directly at the sun? And where's the essential "try to swallow something and it goes down your windpipe a little bit before you cough it back up and it feels terrible for, like, the next five minutes" damage type?

 

 

Seriously, a damage type for hunger? C'mon.

 

Edited February 13, 2014 by Tamerlane

[rjshae]

It is surprising that his response only included these types. One would expect "magical" or "spiritual" damage to make an appearance, given the "soul magic" thematic of P:E. As far as this list goes, "shock" may be the most broadly defined. While in a literal sense it lends to electrical damage, it could also be defined in the medical sense of traumatic injury or distress which could then be applied towards hunger, poison, and magical damage. Ultimately, I imagine that many more damage types will be included.

 

I would think that, as in D&D, there will be Drain effects, which could cover things like poison, disease, and perhaps spiritual attacks as well.

[Sir Chaox]

Right, some of these concerns appear to be aimed towards status effects versus an actual damage type. Lack of eating or sleep would cause fatigue, not direct damage.

[ItinerantNomad]

What about damage caused by the realization of life's meaninglessness? Or the damage inflicted when you look directly at the sun? And where's the essential "try to swallow something and it goes down your windpipe a little bit before you cough it back up and it feels terrible for, like, the next five minutes" damage type?

 

 

Seriously, a damage type for hunger? C'mon.

 

 

hunger and survival was a big deal in fallout new vegas. i don't see why you think this is ridiculous. there could be spells that cause hunger or hold hunger.

 

as for status effects, some of these damage types lead to status effects as well as damage reduction equations. that's the whole point of the discussion: how do these damage types work exactly and are we forgetting any other interesting ones?

Edited February 13, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[Tamerlane]

Okay, now what damage type did hunger have in New Vegas?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Poison and disease are tags assigned to various effects (sometimes damage).  In addition to the seven damage types listed above, there is a "raw" type that does damage that ignores armor.  It is rare and typically does small amounts of damage overall.

[Jarmo]

Ah, just when I was thinking of a theory where "hunger" would be of maybe "corroding" type,

and would then be easily blocked by wearing a specific type of lizardskin helmet or something...

[ItinerantNomad]

perfect. as long as there is an overarching damage type. i'm happy. that means any damge could be described.

[Lephys]

if you hit the wall you don't get crushed by the wall, you take concussive damage to your internal organs without breaking skin.

You actually sort of do. You get "crushed" between the force pushing you against the wall, and the wall itself. If it's not crush damage, then it's just plain old "physical damage," which pretty much anything deals. A sword blade cuts, but a sword blow can also break a bone. It's just force being transmitted throughout.

 

I get where you're going with this, but I just don't know that there's anything in the game that really needs the distinction of the form of damage specifically being "concussive." I mean, it really just depends on what you're hitting. If you hit a stone golem, does HE take concussive damage? Or does he just take crushing damage? I mean, there could be a "blunt" damage, I suppose. But, that's kind of what "crush" is representing, methinks (maces, hammers, etc.). The only distinction is in how it is affected by defensive things like armor. Your slashy slashy sword will deal "concussive" damage to plate armor. The only difference is that the armor absorbs/distributes most of it instead of your body doing it. Blunt/crushing damage, however, would effectively disturb the armor's ability to keep its form, thereby allowing the force to reach your damageable bits. I'm not sure it really matters how we classify the force at that point (in terms of mechanics), is all.

 

I mean, punching and kicking people in the face/body is technically "concussive" damage, but games usually just call it "physical damage" and allow for effects like "concussed" and injuries such as broken bones and internal damage and the like. If you can come up with a benefit from having that be specifically represented as a type of damage in the game, then, by all means, do so. Just 'cause I can't doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

The wiki pg on defense mentions, "Fortitude (FOR): Represents a character's endurance to "body system attacks" such as poison or disease. It is based on Might and Constitution."  It's fairly surprising there's no poison dmg, but it's probably not terrible that way.

Right, but, with the way attack resolution works, Fortitude simply affects whether or not you're affected by the poison (or are doubly-affected by the poison, or are half-affected by the poison). If the deadliest poison attack in the game has an Attack rating of 50, and you have a Fortitude of 60, then you automatically are above being critically hit by that poison affect, thus effectively mitigating the extent by which that poison can ever affect your bodily system (while other people could suffer that poison for twice as long). So, without any second factor (like armor versus physical damage, with its damage threshold) saying "Okay, you got hit, but maybe you'll take less damage from the poison than other people, per tick?", the idea that some people are more resistant to poison than others is fully represented, without a real need for a "poison" damage type, specifically.

 

That's why I don't find it surprising there's no poison damage, and is what I meant by the line you quoted.

[robfang]

I have read that mail and plate armors are weak against shock damage. If what is meant by shock is the "electrical" shock, this weakness is quite the opposite of truth.

 

Plate, and mail armors are worn all over the body. It is not like wearing a metal helmet and have metal shoes. Since the armor covers all over your body, the armor forms a Faraday cage. The electrical current passes over your body instead of passing through it. The people who work with Tesla coils wear mail armor to protect themselves from the high voltage, any current just passes through the armor. 

 

I think the plate armor should protect the wearer from the shock damage. If it is mechanically necessary, the developers should add another weakness (such as weakness to heat, or cold damage).

[Prometheus]

Plate, and mail armors are worn all over the body. It is not like wearing a metal helmet and have metal shoes.

That's not true, armor is only the body part so you could wear non metal shoes/helmets etc. Also most armor will cover only 3/4 of the body.

[Sherr]

Pretty standard damage types, but they are alright. Im glad there no "air/wind" kind of damage, because its always look silly to me. Lightning is good choice for it place. Same with divine/darkness - a bit to much dmg types usually overextend game mech.

 

Dont know should they add pure "magic" damage type...

Edited February 16, 2014 by Sherr