The Case for Romance.

[Gideon Laier]

 

It's a valid Observation, but I'm not sure it's universal truth that Romances automatically = more memorable characters. People will remember NPCs who are well written and who are prolifically represented in a video game. (read: lots of lines either spoken or text) Whether they're romanceable or not makes little difference.

 

Romances are certainly a way to make a character memorable. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. What IS in dispute is whether it's the best way. I happen to be in the camp of people who say it's not. And for my argument, I can say this. In my years of gaming the characters I remember most are:

 

1)Irenicus

2)Morte

3)Fall-From-Grace

4)Serevok

5)Neeshka

6)Viconia

7) Roche

 

^And only one of these is romanceable.

 

Oh, for sure. Minsc and Irenicus will always have a place in my heart as one of the greatest creations from gaming. Nothing stops great writing and great characters. However, I don't think that Romance hurt Baldur's Gate. Because I'm still drawn to Viconia and Jaheira because of their romances. Without those I'd probably never use those characters.

 

Looking at CDProjeckt, I think the Witcher 2 was one of the greatest games I've played. I didn't get pissed that Geralt and Triss had a romance. I don't get pissed that Geralt is searching for Yennefer. It actually adds to the game for me. It rounds out his character and makes him relatable.

 

I'll agree and say that it might not be THE BEST way to create memorable characters, but I think that games are better with it than without.  

 

 

Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.

Get back to me once BioWare makes a character with depth like Kreia.

 

They can't?

 

 

Yes, Kreia was well written, but I don't think she was as good as you remember. Other characters (even non-romance-able ones) that Bioware has created are just as well rounded. Aveline from DA2, Mordin from ME2, Thane, Garrus, Legion, Anders, Sten, Alistair - or from KOTOR1 Canderous, Jolee Bindo... I can go on.  What made Kreia cool was that she spoke about philosophy, yet what I think curbs her character a little is that from the get go she takes on the role of a sage/mentor from the very beginning. That's her role, to speak about philosophy. I think it's more impressive when you have characters that aren't trying to directly and overtly influence you, remain themselves, and still make you think about something you haven't before because of their point of view.

[TMZuk]

It's telling that the people advocating romance are also the people who like BioWare's shallow and uninteresting writing, with flat one dimensional characters that they'd completely compromise for the sake of adding romance options. Go back a BioWare Kickstarter, ask for the ability to romance anything in the game, even inanimate objects.

Yeah right. Pump up a shallow, generalizing statement like that and call other people shallow. Well done sir, even as the internet goes, that's pretty sad.

 

When I am disappointed, and I am, it's because of three things:

 

One, I had hoped that Obsidian, in contrast to most other developers, would include some ~interesting~ romantic options. Biowares romance system, with gifts and what have we, is deeply flawed and embarrassingly silly. The only good "romance", silly term anyway, in the Dragon Age games, was Morrigan's. It was the only one where personal ambitions and conflicting interests stood in the way of "happy ever after".

 

Two, Obsidian's greatest success in the past years, Fallout: New Vegas, which I do like, is seriously lacking in one department: Companion interaction. All the companions feels like shallow paper-dolls, and not just because you cannot have romantic interactions, but because you have next to no interaction at all. And furthermore, your character could have meaningless sex, a female character could even prostitute herself, but real involvement? Oh no.

 

And that brings me to my final worry.

 

Three, it's not only romance that is difficult to write and implement. It is all meaningful character interaction. When Obsidian gives this a pass, and with all the updates from the past six months in mind, PoE seems more and more like IWD and less and less like BG2. And that, in my opinion, is a Bad Thing.

Edited February 18, 2014 by TMZuk

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

The case for Romance is that you like them and want them.

 

The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them.

 

That is all.

 

Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members.

 

The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs ....  

 

That is all

 

Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives.

 

 

True but as far as I know no one is advocating a badly written Romance arc

 

But there's no guarantee that by writing a romance arc that it will be good; therefore romance as element cannot be seen as naturally additive, ie game < game + romance.

 

 

Ah, I see what you are saying. In other words a game with Romance doesn't necessarily mean it will be more interactive and enjoyable than a game without Romance because the writing could be poor. I agree, the Romance writing has to decent. But I have faith in Obsidian they would deliver of they were going to implement Romance

[AwesomeOcelot]

PoE seems more and more like IWD and less and less like BG2.

He says while complaining the game is too much "Black Isle" not enough "BioWare".

[Monte Carlo]

THERE ARE NO ROMANCES IN THIS GAME.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

 

PoE seems more and more like IWD and less and less like BG2.

He says while complaining the game is too much "Black Isle" not enough "BioWare".

 

 

Seriously, though? I think PoE being more like BG2 and less like IWD is something the majority of people want, regardless of how they feel about Bioware or Black Isle. I loved both studios in their prime, but I never loved Black Isle for IWD very much, and in fact never finished the first game of that series because straight dungeon crawls are boring.

[Amentep]

While I liked BG, BG2, and PST...IWD was actually the game I replayed more.

 

But then I love me some hackin' and some slashin'.

[BruceVC]

I

 

 

PoE seems more and more like IWD and less and less like BG2.

He says while complaining the game is too much "Black Isle" not enough "BioWare".

 

 

Seriously, though? I think PoE being more like BG2 and less like IWD is something the majority of people want, regardless of how they feel about Bioware or Black Isle. I loved both studios in their prime, but I never loved Black Isle for IWD very much, and in fact never finished the first game of that series because straight dungeon crawls are boring.

 

 

I would be very content if PoE was like BG2, as I've mentioned numerous times that's my best RPG of all time.

[Lurky]

But I have faith in Obsidian they would deliver of they were going to implement Romance

 

Dude, not even the people on Obsidian have faith that they'd deliver. That is the greatest reason they have cited for not writing romances.

[Auxilius]

 

Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.

And praise the gods of computer games for that!

 

 

Besides, we saw what happened to Obsidian characters once Bioware got their claws on them.

The Exile: now a total tool smitten by Revan :romance:.

Kreia: a madwoman who actually babbled no sense.

 

Yeeeeah. And TOR being a MMO isn't an excuse. When you get characters with backgrounds, you try a little to respect the original material. You don't go wild because they aren't what you want to do.

 

It reminds of David Gaider and Leliana for DA2: "I ressurected her because I didn't like her being killed in DA:O and this is my story"

Well, FREAKIN' GOOD MOVE FOR A SUPPOSED-TO-BE PROFESSIONAL WRITER DAVE. Imagine if G.R.R.Martin decided Ned Stark should go back because he was totally awesome and it's too bad we don't get to see his manly beard anymore. The story would just be chaos and the plot would become meaningless.

 

So yeah, thanks the gods indeed!

Edited February 18, 2014 by Auxilius

[Stun]

Three, it's not only romance that is difficult to write and implement. It is all meaningful character interaction. When Obsidian gives this a pass, and with all the updates from the past six months in mind, PoE seems more and more like IWD and less and less like BG2. And that, in my opinion, is a Bad Thing.

To be fair, the only reason it "seems" that way is because the updates from the last 6 months have been specifically devoted to displaying game art, game UI, class and combat mechanics.

 

It's deliberate. Josh and co have been clear in their intentions to stay tight-lipped on narrative and story details. And by the way, Bioware did the same thing during BG2's development. We were told that our party members would have "feelings".... and NOTHING else. It was only after the game was released that we all discovered just how different from IWD and BG1 the game really was.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Stun

[Death Machine Miyagi]

While I liked BG, BG2, and PST...IWD was actually the game I replayed more.

 

But then I love me some hackin' and some slashin'.

 

And that's fine. To each his own.

 

But for me, if PoE plays out like IWD in terms of story and character interaction, I'll be bitterly disappointed. I like character interaction. I like my NPCs to have personalities and the storyline to be richly developed by intelligent writers with higher aims than creating flimsy excuses for killing new things and finding better loot. Tactical combat is fantastic, and I find I can't play the original BG2 without tactical combat mods precisely because the increased difficulty and balancing creates a much more interesting experience compared to the vanilla game, but if I thought that was the central focus of PoE I wouldn't have pledged money to the project. 

 

Not that I'm worried. Obsidian has a good track record on this front and I'm pretty sure they know, given the feedback they've gotten around here, how important good storytelling is to the people who pledged.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Death Machine Miyagi

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

 

 

The case for Romance is that you like them and want them.

 

The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them.

 

That is all.

 

Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members.

 

The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs ....  

 

That is all

 

Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives.

 

 

True but as far as I know no one is advocating a badly written Romance arc

 

But there's no guarantee that by writing a romance arc that it will be good; therefore romance as element cannot be seen as naturally additive, ie game < game + romance.

 

The same as there are no guarantee that other type of relationships whoud be writen good. but still nobody complains

 

And besides "badly desinged romances" are more memorable then good ones ... reaf this thres cerfuly and you see that all people complain about "bio-were cal of duty proromancers, no-lifers, etc. etc ...etc.... scum on the society" but almost no one says  ... hey .. some romances was good ... for example those who fit in storyline ...

 

The argu is about "we dont;t want romance-system like in biowere" ... but lets think a bit qhous any one be glad about "frendship" or "rivality" system ? ... i feel then no one ...

[Ulquiorra]

THERE ARE NO ROMANCES IN THIS GAME.

 

No there will be regardles what you say .. unless anyone is genderless and "gender" option in the creation kit is to only "boob" adding ...

 

Their will be some kid of romance, but not with player character

Edited February 18, 2014 by Ulquiorra

[Stun]

in the creation kit

There isn't going to be one of those either!

 

lol

Edited February 18, 2014 by Stun

[BruceVC]

 

While I liked BG, BG2, and PST...IWD was actually the game I replayed more.

 

But then I love me some hackin' and some slashin'.

 

And that's fine. To each his own.

 

But for me, if PoE plays out like IWD in terms of story and character interaction, I'll be bitterly disappointed. I like character interaction. I like my NPCs to have personalities and the storyline to be richly developed by intelligent writers with higher aims than creating flimsy excuses for killing new things and finding better loot. Tactical combat is fantastic, and I find I can't play the original BG2 without tactical combat mods precisely because the increased difficulty and balancing creates a much more interesting experience compared to the vanilla game, but if I thought that was the central focus of PoE I wouldn't have pledged money to the project. 

 

Not that I'm worried. Obsidian has a good track record on this front and I'm pretty sure they know, given the feedback they've gotten around here, how important good storytelling is to the people who pledged.

 

 

I played IWD for the first time about 4 months ago and even though I enjoyed it there was no doubt that something was missing and what was missing was the fact there was no real interaction with your party. I doubt the longevity and success of any modern RPG without some kind of  party interaction.

[Ulquiorra]

 

in the creation kit

There isn't going to be one of those either!

 

lol

 

you know what i was saying lol

[BruceVC]

d

 

in the creation kit

There isn't going to be one of those either!

lol

 

 ....I don't know if I can handle another forum discussion around a feature that should be in PoE but isn't

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

The case for Romance is that you like them and want them.

 

The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them.

 

That is all.

 

Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members.

 

The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs ....  

 

That is all

 

Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives.

 

 

True but as far as I know no one is advocating a badly written Romance arc

 

But there's no guarantee that by writing a romance arc that it will be good; therefore romance as element cannot be seen as naturally additive, ie game < game + romance.

 

The same as there are no guarantee that other type of relationships whoud be writen good. but still nobody complains

 

And besides "badly desinged romances" are more memorable then good ones ... reaf this thres cerfuly and you see that all people complain about "bio-were cal of duty proromancers, no-lifers, etc. etc ...etc.... scum on the society" but almost no one says  ... hey .. some romances was good ... for example those who fit in storyline ...

 

The argu is about "we dont;t want romance-system like in biowere" ... but lets think a bit qhous any one be glad about "frendship" or "rivality" system ? ... i feel then no one ...

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you said in that post but I like it anyway

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The case for Romance is that you like them and want them.

 

The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them.

 

That is all.

 

Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members.

 

The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs ....  

 

That is all

 

Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives.

 

 

True but as far as I know no one is advocating a badly written Romance arc

 

But there's no guarantee that by writing a romance arc that it will be good; therefore romance as element cannot be seen as naturally additive, ie game < game + romance.

 

The same as there are no guarantee that other type of relationships whoud be writen good. but still nobody complains

 

And besides "badly desinged romances" are more memorable then good ones ... reaf this thres cerfuly and you see that all people complain about "bio-were cal of duty proromancers, no-lifers, etc. etc ...etc.... scum on the society" but almost no one says  ... hey .. some romances was good ... for example those who fit in storyline ...

 

The argu is about "we dont;t want romance-system like in biowere" ... but lets think a bit qhous any one be glad about "frendship" or "rivality" system ? ... i feel then no one ...

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you said in that post but I like it anyway

 

 

anyone complains about badly desined romances .. but nobady complains about badly desings frendhips, rivality, hate .. so what we must cut them out becouse "they can be design badly to ?"

 

Now you uderstand ?

[tajerio]

Imagine if G.R.R.Martin decided Ned Stark should go back because he was totally awesome and it's too bad we don't get to see his manly beard anymore. The story would just be chaos and the plot would become meaningless.

 

 

I might have chosen a different example to make that point.  Probably a good writer, who doesn't think that all the smoke blown up his posterior means that droning on and on endlessly is exactly what he should do.

 

On topic: THERE ARE NO ROMANCES IN THIS GAME.  THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD GO ELSEWHERE.

Edited February 18, 2014 by tajerio

[Ulquiorra]

 

Imagine if G.R.R.Martin decided Ned Stark should go back because he was totally awesome and it's too bad we don't get to see his manly beard anymore. The story would just be chaos and the plot would become meaningless.

 

 

I might have chosen a different example to make that point.  Probably a good writer, who doesn't think that all the smoke blown up his posterior means that droning on and on endlessly is exactly what he should do.

 

On topic: THERE ARE NO ROMANCES IN THIS GAME.  THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD GO ELSEWHERE.

 

 

No .. their are .. unles you char was created from the air .. not ... man woman loving

 

See the biggest font ... im greatest

[Amentep]

The same as there are no guarantee that other type of relationships whoud be writen good. but still nobody complains

 

And besides "badly desinged romances" are more memorable then good ones ... reaf this thres cerfuly and you see that all people complain about "bio-were cal of duty proromancers, no-lifers, etc. etc ...etc.... scum on the society" but almost no one says  ... hey .. some romances was good ... for example those who fit in storyline ...

 

The argu is about "we dont;t want romance-system like in biowere" ... but lets think a bit qhous any one be glad about "frendship" or "rivality" system ? ... i feel then no one ...

Since the box is open and Schrodenger's cat either exists or doesn't (in this case, doesn't as we get no romances), we've moved from the theoretical realm of "romance" paths vs "friendship" paths vs "rivalry" paths to whether a game with no romances (PoE) would be impreoved by the inclusion of romances.

 

Which simply isn't the case since it could be done poorly and the loss would actually makes for a better game (which is, after all, essentially the reasons the developers decided not to have romances in the game - that they didn't they could do it to their standards).

[Stun]

anyone complains about badly desined romances .. but nobady complains about badly desings frendhips, rivality, hate .. so what we must cut them out becouse "they can be design badly to ?"

 

Now you uderstand ?

Oh, I've complained about Badly designed friendships. One game in particular (a Bioware game, even!) was filled with badly written friendships: Neverwinter Nights.

 

Sharwin, Linu, Tiomi, and a few of the other cohorts (which I can't even name because I've completely forgotten them) were all terribly written. Each of those characters had their own quests in every chapter. Each had the standard "thank you for helping me out and being such a good friend! blah blah" lines that they repeated over and over.... yet it all seemed hollow.... due to mediocre writing.

 

But we don't make it a point to talk about those things because... well for one, no one's actually done a thread here entitled "The case for friendships" and two... because they're really not worth talking about. When an NPC friendship fails, one simply dismisses that NPC as "boring" or "not interesting", and moves on. This doesn't happen with Romances because romances attempt to go deeper with the emotions... so when they fail, they end up annoying the player a bit more. if that makes any sense.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Stun

[AGX-17]

Just a question; Any reason why this isn't in the "no romance confirmed", and an additional thread?

Probably because it would come across as more whiny, given it's obviously a reaction to said confirmation.