Finding Hidden items in locations

[Hiro Protagonist II]

How is PoE going to handle finding hidden items, paintings, hidden doors and loot? I always felt it was a bit of a cop out that you could press the Alt / Tab key in BG2 and the IWD games and highlight every secret stash of loot on the screen even if you didn't have a Thief in your party. Alt/Tab - Ah, there's some loot behind that rock 60 feet away. The same with my party walks down a corridor and without warning a hidden door is highlighted to one side even though my Thief didn't have search on.

 

Passive perception should be you see a chest, bookcase, anything your characters would see and if you hit Alt/Tab, then only those items are highlighted. If there's secret stuff, then your Thief should be searching and only then it's highlighted to the Alt/Tab sequence. I liked how it was in BG1 where you could walk past something and you would never know it's there because you weren't searching. In BG2 and the IWD games, hit Alt/Tab and voila! No need to search.

 

It also goes with the Fog of War revealing a part of a room on the other side of the corridor I'm in. My characters don't know there's a hidden room but as a player, the Fog of War just revealed a small part of it to me. I hope PoE fixes the Fog of War and not reveal hidden rooms as well.

[Pipyui]

If I recall correctly, I believe that you can spot hidden items from casually passing close to them, but without the search skill active you must pass very close (varying by your perception) and remain close for a second or two.  You can only highlight a hidden object after it's been discovered.

 

I suppose this works for me.  A sufficiently perceptive and experienced character should be able to spot oddities even when not actively searching for them, given that they're standing still long enough to examine their surroundings.  Turn on scout mode - actively searching for anomalies, so wider spot radius, and even if the spot delay is still in effect, you're walking slower anyway (combined with the bigger radius, it should be hard to just walk immediately past something hidden).

 

Hope that helps!  If I can find Sawyer's quote on this, I'll link it.

 

Edit: Found Sawyer's qoutes, via Prometheus:

Context

 

Things that are intentionally hidden (doors, containers, traps, etc.) will be marked as undetected by default. Noticing them will require getting within a certain proximity (based on character attributes) for a second or two. If you rush by everything, you can easily miss the hidden objects or blunder into a trap. We absolutely don't want to emulate the "click button and wait" mechanic of the IE games but we do want to encourage players to be thorough in how they move through/explore spaces. Once an object has been detected, the highlighting key will highlight it just like any other object.

 

Correct.  Once you've detected a hidden object, the highlighting shortcut will reveal it like other objects.
 
On a related note, finding hidden objects can happen due to sheer proximity (very close), but will trigger at much greater range if you enter scouting mode, which is our combined stealth/search state.
 
BTW, another reason why we would like to retain a highlighting key in PE is because with an isometric perspective and occluded geometry, it's very easy for bodies/items to fall "behind" something relative to the camera.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Pipyui

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'd like to dig down in some hidden locations.

[^Rayne^]

I would love to discover a secret compartment inside a hidden safe if your thief is skilled enough.  Secrets items and information that is only revealed to the most cunning of rogues is particularly rewarding.

[rjshae]

Making an item super-hard to find doesn't really help the game any. It becomes something you only find out about because you read the walkthrough. A clue or two about the location would make it more interesting. I.e. "rumor 'as it that Baron 'olds a gem of power, though none of 'is servants 'ave ever seen it. But I'll bet you a crown piece 'e 'as it stashed away somewhere in that manor of 'is..."

[JFSOCC]

Making an item super-hard to find doesn't really help the game any. It becomes something you only find out about because you read the walkthrough. A clue or two about the location would make it more interesting. I.e. "rumor 'as it that Baron 'olds a gem of power, though none of 'is servants 'ave ever seen it. But I'll bet you a crown piece 'e 'as it stashed away somewhere in that manor of 'is..."

There will always be those kinds of players trying to explore every last nook and cranny.

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, BG1's "hidden items" where just pixel-searching... the tab added by the expansion was very welcome.

I personally would be more interested in things that require you to use your head, rather than pixelhunt. A stash that only appears once you read some hints (dialogue, book, note, anything) and then go search for it based on said information rather than move your mouse over all the screen or pressing one button (the second still being better than the first).

 

More brains, less 'grind'

[IndiraLightfoot]

You guys are far too specific on how the game should do this. I'd love to see it all. Let me explain...

 

Making an item super-hard to find doesn't really help the game any. It becomes something you only find out about because you read the walkthrough. A clue or two about the location would make it more interesting.

If only done a few times, and in varied locations, such super-hidden items just lends the game a few more surprises, and that is always good in my book.

That said, I really like to see clues like you describe them as well. There are room for both kinds of super-hidden items, I reckon.

 

 

There will always be those kinds of players trying to explore every last nook and cranny.

 

I'm one of them OCD-exploring every little bit of maps in CRPGs. I've always loved doing it, so to me, this is usually a fun feature, and not a chore. It can be frustrating at times, but I will keep on doing it, heh!

 

Yeah, BG1's "hidden items" where just pixel-searching... the tab added by the expansion was very welcome.

I personally would be more interested in things that require you to use your head, rather than pixelhunt. A stash that only appears once you read some hints (dialogue, book, note, anything) and then go search for it based on said information rather than move your mouse over all the screen or pressing one button (the second still being better than the first).

 

More brains, less 'grind'

Pixel-searching hidden items, if done sparingly and varied, is like I've already said fun to some of us.

A "Z" button highlighting some stuff, like Josh described, sounds like a perfect compromise.

However, your example of secrets, where we get to use our head and then get rewarded for piecing together clues and then make some wonderful little discovery, is the best of all, so yes, please. As much of that as possible!

Heck, I even like them riddles and puzzles you have in Might & Magic, even in its last iteration.

 

tl;dr: I want it all, not just some.

[Sir Chaox]

I think those who enjoy the pixel-hunts probably also enjoy adventure games; similar idea of finding that special object/space from a static outlook. The difference of course is that pixel-hunting in BG can be totally random (finding that plate armor in the middle of that field in Nashkel... WTF?), while an adventure game should mostly make sense.

 

Considering the type of game we're dealing with, I think it would be better to approach hidden treasures with SOME clues, rumors, even really ambiguous hints, just to make it have some sense... Please don't do what BG did (although it was awesome finding that plate armor so early...).

 

Side note: I'm not actually sure if BG had some kind of rumor or hint towards this hidden armor spot; maybe someone could clarify, if they know!

[rjshae]

It might be fun to have an easter egg for the player that blunders into every trap, or fails to solve every puzzle, in a dungeon. Like a blockhead helm with some special ability requiring exceptionally low intelligence...

[Yonjuro]

...

Side note: I'm not actually sure if BG had some kind of rumor or hint towards this hidden armor spot; maybe someone could clarify, if they know!

 

 

 The farmer's wife (standing in the field SE of where the armor is) tells you that her son broke the plow blade on something while plowing that field. The armor is at the end of the final partially plowed row. That's how I found the armor the first time.

[Sir Chaox]

 

...

Side note: I'm not actually sure if BG had some kind of rumor or hint towards this hidden armor spot; maybe someone could clarify, if they know!

 

 

 The farmer's wife (standing in the field SE of where the armor is) tells you that her son broke the plow blade on something while plowing that field. The armor is at the end of the final partially plowed row. That's how I found the armor the first time.

 

 

Cool, I know there are other pixel pockets in BG (can't name them specifically), maybe they all had hints/rumors around that lead towards them. I first played BG when I was in sixth grade... didn't really pay attention to details back then. 

[Lephys]

I thinking making something "really hard to find" is bad, if it amounts to actual pixel-hunting. It should be intuitive, is what's important.

 

On the most basic level, the level of difficulty in discovering something hidden should be directly proportionate to the amount of alertness/care taken by the player, to a reasonable extent. What I mean is, if you just expect to jog through a whole manor, then you shouldn't expect to find everything in it. If you take a few minutes to actually thoroughly search the place (just actually pay attention to details and cues -- maybe subtle scratch marks on a wall where an armoire has been slid out of the way, etc.), you shouldn't have to much difficulty finding things.

 

Then, of course, you've got the especially hidden stuff that cannot present cues to the player in an isometric view (secret tiny switches/hidden compartments within chests/drawers, etc.). Which is where the Perception stat comes in. Either you've got enough Perception (or maybe even Knowledge:Concealment or something?) to find it, or you don't.

 

There's a place for both. Honestly, the active search button that makes a search of the area around you shouldn't be something that's necessary to abuse just to find things. You should never have absolutely no way of knowing where to even look for something that's hidden, and just have to rely on moving 10 feet at a time and clicking on "search," or just entering search mode and walking around very slowly, standing near random objects and walls for seconds at a time.

 

It should make sense. In a big room, sure, you might need to move about a little bit to get a better look at things. But, in a screen-sized room, you should pretty much be able to look around and find anything you're just going to notice. If there's a super-hidden door in a hallway or something, then your character should have to obtain SOME kind of clue to go on. Why would your character say "Hmmm... that bit of wall looks completely inconspicuous! I'd better focus on it REALLLLY hard for no apparent reason, until I discover its secrets!" That's just silly. Now, if you find some journal that tells of a secret passage in a hallway, now you can go to hallways, and search, and now it makes sense that your character would be specifically looking for evidence of a secret passage in a wall or bookshelf, etc.

 

You should really have two tiers:

 

-Stuff you can just notice 'cause you're Perceptive and are taking the 15 seconds required to actually stand still for a bit and search your surroundings, and

-Stuff you aren't ever going to find until you know what you're looking for.

 

And, between clues throughout, and visual cues, and scripted interactions, and Perception/Knowledge checks, etc, there's plenty of room to do it well without making it a chore, but also without making Search Mode just some kind of easy button that just turns hidden stuff into "stuff you didn't take the time to actually click 'search' to instantly discover."

 

 

EDIT:

 

What might actually be kind of neat is if, instead of ONLY ever finding significant items of value (or just not finding them if your Perception/Search is too low), you could actually find things of little/no consequence. Or of little/no consequence until you have more clues/context.

 

Also, being able to glean more information about something might be interesting. But, I guess that'd be more Knowledge/Intellect checks than Perception. One character might deduce some clues from some evidence he finds, while another might not deduce nearly as much. A little light detective action, perhaps.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Lephys

[AGX-17]

As far as paintings go, in my experience, I've found they tend to be found prominently mounted on walls, usually at the height of human eyes.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

behind paintings.

[NikoBolas]

It's more important for me that treasure makes sense. In other words, if the boss of a dungeon has a sword in his treasure chest that he could have been using but wasn't, that is a disconnect. Similarly, if I defeat a handful of gnolls wielding pole-arms, it would be nice if their treasure reflected that. Also, wolves and bears shouldn't leave behind piles of gold. Hidden treasure should be hidden for a reason! Maybe finding a hidden map, which leads to a treasure that you could find in other ways (stumbling over it, conversations at an inn, etc). I don't like pixel check but I do like the sound of attributes contributing to item finding.

[AGX-17]

It's more important for me that treasure makes sense. In other words, if the boss of a dungeon has a sword in his treasure chest that he could have been using but wasn't, that is a disconnect. Similarly, if I defeat a handful of gnolls wielding pole-arms, it would be nice if their treasure reflected that. Also, wolves and bears shouldn't leave behind piles of gold. Hidden treasure should be hidden for a reason! Maybe finding a hidden map, which leads to a treasure that you could find in other ways (stumbling over it, conversations at an inn, etc). I don't like pixel check but I do like the sound of attributes contributing to item finding.

What makes you think the sword is better than whatever the boss was equipped with? Or that the boss is some ambidextrous polymath talented and trained in the use of all weapon types? A fancy-pants rapier is no use for someone who's trained in the use of maces.

 

Nits status: Picked.

Edited February 11, 2014 by AGX-17

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While I loved the random loot hidden about, I can't say that I would miss it terribly. The Ankheg Plate Armor, Wand of Cold, and especially the Ring of Wizardry were a bit powerful to be thrown at you so early in game. I would rather see a true riddle and scavenger hunt, like the infamous pantloons quest. Even with the age of the internet, it took a long time for that secret to get out.

[AGX-17]

behind paintings.

Paintings behind paintings behind paintings, insert Inception reference here, everybody laughs then sticks their index and middle fingers to their heads, makes a hammer ****ing and striking motion with their thumbs and a THHHBLLT onomatopoeia representing one's brain being splattered across the room because that is an insufferably tired reference.

 

Incidentally, ****ing the hammer on your revolver is VERBOTEN BY DER NAUGHTINESS FILTER.

Edited February 12, 2014 by AGX-17

[datanoppa]

Little treasure hunt isnt never a bad thing i guess, secret room here and there, lost items on the tree hole etc.

Personally i would like more special encounters and getting stuff that way, maybe even add some effort to actually get the full potential out of the item.

This would add some dimension and variety/randomness to gameplays as there is some change to get it or not, tho i understand this kind of mechanic irritates some players.