Update #70: New Year Project Update

[Greensleeve]

Fantastic outdoor area there. Really amazing. Looking forward to walking around there, fighting in the inevitable epic battle and such. 

 

I'm also terribly pleased with the shown UI. The information present there is very much to my liking. I'm really looking forward to next update giving us more class info!

[Greensleeve]

 

 

Josh, please describe the stats if possible. I don't know what concentration is, whether healing is based on spells/abilities that case healing, per-time unit healing for stamina/health or both, etc. is penetration different from the DT piercing? interrupt is what exactly, spell interruption?

 

Concentration is similar to Concentration in 3E/3.5 (somewhat similar to Poise in Dark Souls) but it is for everyone, not just spellcasters.  Concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage.  If you cannot maintain Concentration, you will play a hit reaction and your attack/reload/spell is interrupted.  We're still defining the system (in fact, I was messing around with the formulae before I sat down), but that's the general idea.

 

In the new scheme, Might affects damage/healing whether it's a single application or over time.  Penetration is something we may or may not use in conjunction with an inherent Penetration value on weapons and other attacks that cause damage.  I'm leaning toward "not" right now.

 

may i ask, can you make a auto level thing? you know, a system that automatically assigns stat points to base stats based on your class? i ask this because in MMORPG's i always manage to find a way to screw myself over by not properly allocating my stats in the proper places at the proper time to get the most out of the class that i am playing, this got so bad that i stopped play WRPG's altogether. think sort of like JRPG's, like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest (Dragon Warriors) i am not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to choose their own stat builds, but give the option for the computer to do it for the player who really doesn't understand a thing about stats, and doesn't want to pull a bunch of wiki's trying to learn all of the nuances for each class in order to do well in the game. i don't know if i am saying this right, and i know a lot of WRPG purists are going to get angry and the idea of this, but i really want to enjoy the game, and i won't be able to if i am constantly worrying if i allocated my points properly. skill points i don't need any help with, as i generally tend to know what i want in terms of skills.

 

 

The game is explicitly designed so that you aren't going to fall into traps as long as you read the description of what an ability does. Nothing like NWN or something here. So I think you can rest easy. 

[Keyrock]

Everything looks great.  The ruins look fantastic.  I'm a big fan of wood grain so I'm definitely liking the character sheet window.

[ItinerantNomad]

It's not even changing the stats to do different things for different classes. They simply affect attack types in different ways. Basically, you're always dealing with the same set of stat effects, and all the stats are useful in some way to every character type, and yet the distinction between physical and magical capabilities is maintained, instead of your 20 Might Wizard hitting like a Mack truck with a mace WHILE hurling Thor-quality lightning at everyone around.

 

 

It doesn't matter whether your wizard is physically mighty, intellectually mighty or whatever. a mighty wizard is a mighty wizard with less points to spend on other important attributes like resolve, etc. per josh, a wizard would rarely go toe-to-toe with a barbarian in terms of physical combat, so your proposal doesn't make much sense. it goes back to the free opt-out challenges that josh has described in the past. most wizards will take the magic attribute in lieu of the physical damage attribute. most fighters would do the opposite. that isn't much of a choice.

 

the only thing i am still concerned about is whether improving might over all other attributes is still a no-brainer. that matters more to me than whether my wizard uses his muscles to be mighty or uses his brain.

Edited January 15, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[Infinitron]

I understand that. I didn't mean to suggest that high Might makes the Wizard too combat viable. But, that sort of supports my point, err... qualm? It seems to serve even less of a point for Might to boost the Wizard's physical damage, since it doesn't really make him any more viable.

 

 

That's some strange logic; if high Might doesn't make the Wizard "combat viable", then you might as well go ahead and allow it to boost his physical damage, for simplicity's sake. Because neither high Might nor high anything else are going to make him combat viable.

 

Or do you want no stat at all to boost a Wizard's physical damage?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Infinitron

[PIP-Clownboy]

What classes are Aloth, Sagani and the Devil of Caroc?

[curryinahurry]

Everything looks very nice.   I really like the new area screenshot and the light quality combined combined with the color palette; very nice.  

 

The UI looks good, but the icons for health and accuracy need to be tweaked a bit as they aren't clear at first glance (a blood drop and a fist?).  Also, consider me +1 for a bit better spacing/ justification of the text.  The reputation stats, in particular, look a bit messy.  

 

 

I like the adjustments to the attributes.  One thing I'm wondering is whether one stat should govern both stamina and health.  Could stamina be moved over to resolve?  It seems to fit with the concept of resolve and concentration.

 

Oh, and the reputation system seems very interesting.  All in all, great update!

Edited January 15, 2014 by curryinahurry

[J.E. Sawyer]

One of the advantages of having different attributes governing physical and magical accuracy/damage, apart from important RP reasons, is to be able to fine-tune balance between physical and magical attacks.

 

If all damage is affected by Might and all accuracy by Dexterity, you can't adjust attribute-enhancing spells/talents/items with specifically physical or magical damage/accuracy in mind.

 

As a designer, why would I want to?  If someone wants to play a traditional wizard, they'll bump Int and have big AoEs and long effect durations, which is cool and beneficial.  If someone wants to make a muscle wizard, they can bump Might.  If they don't like the idea of having a high Might wizard, there are five other stats for them to bump for their benefit.

 

Tuning is easier when there are fewer/less diverse input sources.  If Might is the attribute that affects damage for everyone, it's much easier for me to calculate how that feeds into the system than if every arbitrary type of attack/damage has its own attribute that affects it.

[Valorian]

 

I understand that. I didn't mean to suggest that high Might makes the Wizard too combat viable. But, that sort of supports my point, err... qualm? It seems to serve even less of a point for Might to boost the Wizard's physical damage, since it doesn't really make him any more viable.

 

 

That's some strange logic; if high Might doesn't make the Wizard "combat viable", then you might as well go ahead and allow it to boost his physical damage, for simplicity's sake. Because neither high Might nor high anything else are going to make him combat viable.

 

Or do you want no stat at all to boost a Wizard's physical damage?

 

 

Might would boost the wizard's physical damage, but not his magical damage.

 

"if high Might doesn't make the Wizard "combat viable", then you might as well go ahead and allow it to boost his physical damage"

 

You're forgetting srcipted attribute checks. The stat does matter even outside of combat.

[ItinerantNomad]

I understand that. I didn't mean to suggest that high Might makes the Wizard too combat viable. But, that sort of supports my point, err... qualm? It seems to serve even less of a point for Might to boost the Wizard's physical damage, since it doesn't really make him any more viable.

 

Like I said, the sheer fact that Might affects both attack types at the same time for every character is a lot more of an unwanted, quirky side effect than it is a problem. I don't think it screws up the system or is super unfair. It just seems really... arbitrary. Again, if each class could only use one or the other (physical or non-physical attacks), then the quirk would cease to exist.

 

Then, there's the matter of non-combat stat checks. If there's a scripted interaction, and a character has to hold up a collapsing door, for example, and it just checks Might, then even the arcanely powerful Wizard passes, even though he has no telekinetic-type spell prepared or anything (or couldn't cast one that quickly, etc.). Either the check seems to represent that he's automatically super-beefy and physically capable just because he's magically mighty, OR you forgo such situations/checks and we lose that little aspect of things.

 

The only way to fix that particular thing is to add in something that distinguishes the two aspects of power once again, or simply split the stat effect (which doesn't result in any additional entities.)

 

 

with abstraction, these things no longer matter. a mighty wizard is a mighty wizard regardless of how he gets the job done.

 

as for your stat check, that's an easier "problem" to solve. every profession uses their tools of the trade to get the job done. a falling door? no wizard would use their strength anyway. they'd use their mighty spells to hold the door. the respective answers should keep the class in mind, if applicable.

 

"Your fighter, with her sinewy muscles, holds up the collapsing door, straining as a bead of sweat drops from her forehead."

 

"Using a powerful spell, your wizard holds the collapsing door with what looks like relative ease."

Edited January 15, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[mstark]

I would just like to add that I find Lephys' concerns very viable. There are many good reasons (not least of all balance and gear differentiation) to separate which stats support melee, ranged, and magical damage/proficiency.

 

For example, I find it more intuitive to equip an item that gives a Wizard intelligence or wisdom if you want to be a spell caster, and strength if you want to attempt a melee version. Simply pumping Might for both spell and melee bonuses seems strange to me.

 

Now, these are just concerns. It might be a very nice system that we just haven't had a chance to test yet, but familiarity has a lot going for it.

 

Edit,

I do like what Josh is saying above, though. I'm less concerned if such diverse approaches are equally viable. Seems to make room for a lot of interesting ways to build your characters. An AoE/duration buff & support mage, a single target glass-cannon mage...

Edited January 15, 2014 by mstark

[wanderon]

This update is chocolate cake with awesome sauce and don't forget the ice cream!

[J.E. Sawyer]

the only thing i am still concerned about is whether improving might over all other attributes is still a no-brainer. that matters more to me than whether my wizard uses his muscles to be mighty or uses his brain.

 

That is a matter of tuning and overall impact.  Just saying "Might affects damage" seems pretty compelling, but if I say, "Each point of Might adds 0.5% to Damage" that might be less valuable to players than each point of Constitution adding +10% to your Stamina and Health -- it doesn't/it won't, but that's just to illustrate the point.

 

Everyone wants to do or heal more damage if they can, but everyone also wants to score more hits than misses, wants to be able to take hits, wants to interrupt enemy attacks, wants their effects to be big and have long durations, and wants to be able to resist being interrupted.  I'm not under any illusions that this will be perfectly, objectively balanced system, but I believe people will be able to make a lot of different and interesting builds by emphasizing different aspects of their characters.

[J.E. Sawyer]

For example, I find it more intuitive to equip an item that gives a Wizard intelligence or wisdom if you want to be a spell caster, and strength if you want to attempt a melee version. Simply pumping Might for both spell and melee bonuses seems strange to me.

 

On the bright (much brighter, IMO) side, if you do bump your Int or Resolve, you're still getting a very real benefit out of doing so.  A spellcaster with a high Int has impressively large AoEs -- heck, even a barbarian's Carnage is impressively large with a high Int -- so you will wind up affecting more people and probably doing more net damage (or granting more people bonuses for longer) overall.

[ItinerantNomad]

 

the only thing i am still concerned about is whether improving might over all other attributes is still a no-brainer. that matters more to me than whether my wizard uses his muscles to be mighty or uses his brain.

 

That is a matter of tuning and overall impact.  Just saying "Might affects damage" seems pretty compelling, but if I say, "Each point of Might adds 0.5% to Damage" that might be less valuable to players than each point of Constitution adding +10% to your Stamina and Health -- it doesn't/it won't, but that's just to illustrate the point.

 

Everyone wants to do or heal more damage if they can, but everyone also wants to score more hits than misses, wants to be able to take hits, wants to interrupt enemy attacks, wants their effects to be big and have long durations, and wants to be able to resist being interrupted.  I'm not under any illusions that this will be perfectly, objectively balanced system, but I believe people will be able to make a lot of different and interesting builds by emphasizing different aspects of their characters.

 

 

i imagine that this will be perfected as much as possible with enough testing, so good luck.

[Sensuki]

Accuracy is more of a no-brainer than Might is because it's used for every attack, whereas not every attack causes damage. That's the good thing about the Might, Dexterity and Constitution attributes atm is that they're all quite good. Intellect is pretty good and the other two we aren't sure how effective they are yet (and maybe they're still up in the air). But overall it's a better spread than the last lot.

[mstark]

By the way, have you changed the way fonts are handled, or are they still bitmap fonts? The new text looks fantastic (asked about this on page 1 ).

[ItinerantNomad]

i'd imagine not being able to dish out any damage, by losing concentration, is just as important as being able to land the hits you do make.

[Saber-Scorpion]

This looks so good. I can't stop looking at that area and stats sheet.

 

Question: I assume all of these attributes will affect certain conversations, but do any of them equate to Charisma in terms of the general persuasiveness and charm of the PC? Res perhaps?

 

Apologies if this has already been addressed.

[ItinerantNomad]

This looks so good. I can't stop looking at that area and stats sheet.

 

Question: I assume all of these attributes will affect certain conversations, but do any of them equate to Charisma in terms of the general persuasiveness and charm of the PC? Res perhaps?

 

Apologies if this has already been addressed.

 

resolve describes the character's strength of personality, in other words, the new charisma.

[charms]

My only problem with the old stats was that STR looked too much like a universal dump stat, so I'm out of complaints in that regard.

 

Will player characters be able to choose class-specific backgrounds/subclasses/whatever it is that the pictured companion has?

[J.E. Sawyer]

This looks so good. I can't stop looking at that area and stats sheet.

 

Question: I assume all of these attributes will affect certain conversations, but do any of them equate to Charisma in terms of the general persuasiveness and charm of the PC? Res perhaps?

 

Apologies if this has already been addressed.

 

Resolve is used in situations where the character's intensity, presence, or believability are the deciding factors.  E.g., mental intimidation, inspirational leadership, a well-acted lie.  Intellect is used for convincing people through logic, either persuasion or obfuscation.  You could use Intellect to make a compelling case for something or you could use it to present a plausible (but made-up) scenario to explain yourself out of trouble.  Strength is used for outright physical bullying and intimidation.  E.g. picking people up, smashing things, imposing yourself, etc.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Will player characters be able to choose class-specific backgrounds/subclasses/whatever it is that the pictured companion has?

 

We're still working on exactly how much sub-class/order stuff we're actually going to do.  I don't want to promise much on that front.  Sorry.

[Valorian]

 

One of the advantages of having different attributes governing physical and magical accuracy/damage, apart from important RP reasons, is to be able to fine-tune balance between physical and magical attacks.

 

If all damage is affected by Might and all accuracy by Dexterity, you can't adjust attribute-enhancing spells/talents/items with specifically physical or magical damage/accuracy in mind.

 

As a designer, why would I want to?  If someone wants to play a traditional wizard, they'll bump Int and have big AoEs and long effect durations, which is cool and beneficial.  If someone wants to make a muscle wizard, they can bump Might.  If they don't like the idea of having a high Might wizard, there are five other stats for them to bump for their benefit.

 

Tuning is easier when there are fewer/less diverse input sources.  If Might is the attribute that affects damage for everyone, it's much easier for me to calculate how that feeds into the system than if every arbitrary type of attack/damage has its own attribute that affects it.

 

 

I don't know.. I suppose there are several reasons.

 

Wizard with high Might (Strength) and Dexterity: His fireballs will disintegrate enemies as they deal exceptional damage and are very accurate.

He will also be good at walking on suspended ropes and moving large rocks.

 

Wizard with high Intellect and Perception: "Hey look, I have huuge fireballs (sadly I need a few of them to kill a rat), but I *am* able to interrupt the rat's attack pretty often!"

 

 

I'd prefer to have wizard #1, but I really don't need him to be alpha and omega for walking across suspended ropes and moving huge rocks, as well.

 

 

 

I don't know why would it be harder to calculate if magical attacks are affected by stat B and pysical by stat A. Two distinct types, not "every arbitrary type".

[J.E. Sawyer]

By the way, have you changed the way fonts are handled, or are they still bitmap fonts? The new text looks fantastic (asked about this on page 1 ).

 

To be clear, that stat page is a mock-up and the text is still from PhotoShop.  That said, the in-game text is much better looking because Brian found much better settings for it.  There are still bugs to work out, but it's looking better in-game.