RANDOM VIDEO GAME NEWS

[Nepenthe]

Demeaning... Objectifying... Offensive... So easy to hide one's true motives behind jargon and abstract simplifications.

[Bester]

 

I'd like to thank Brucie for providing this discussion with a textbook strawman argument.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining properly,  I'll try to keep it simple. Are you saying that a representation of a male character in a game can't be demeaning to men? If you think it can be then you should respect the fact that many female gamers find these ridiculous breast sizes as objectifying to them and possibly offensive?

 

Yeah, that's why most women want to make their boobs bigger through surgery, wear push up bras, decolletes, etc etc. BECAUSE they think big boobs are offensive. Hahhaahahaha.

[Bester]

Demeaning... Objectifying... Offensive... So easy to hide one's true motives behind jargon and abstract simplifications.

What those chicks are angry about is that they don't have big boobs and those characters do. End of story. It's like if men started whimpering about Thrall having bigger biceps than they've got and calling all orcs offensive.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Bester

[alanschu]

 

You're starting to see stuff like that too, actually.

 

I'm going on a crusade to make sure all male video game characters have more realistic physiques.  That is, pot bellies and can't run for more than 50 feet without huffing and puffing.

 

I mean, apparently big breasted female video game characters give a bad message to girls.  So the same should really apply to the risk of boys feeling bad about their bodies because they don't look like those muscle-bound hunks in their video games.

 

 

It's more an issue with diversity.  I mean, look at Mario.

 

Although "I mean, apparently big breasted female video game characters give a bad message to girls" is somewhat telling, given that I'd argue it's not the girls that it sends the wrong message to.  It also has the implication that it's exclusively women that have issues with this.  Frankly, I think it sends a bad message to everyone.

 

I don't care much for Marcus Fenix body types.  Nor do I care for Tomb Raider 2-esque Lara Croft body types.  Unfortunately I feel oversaturated with them that I tend to bring additional, and sometimes unfair, assumptions into character archetypes and the games that go with them as a result of this (mostly because I'm human).

 

 

Men with suboptimal body types are still represented.  How often are women with suboptimal body types presented?  More importantly, what responses does she normally receive?  I mean, the mere fact that the body type has been changed in the MMO appears to be threatening to people.  If we're truly measuring the value on purely their function, shouldn't we not care how they look?

 

 

 

 

No, that's exactly the feminist fallacy. That portraying women with an idealized physique somehow cheapens them, and yet is a completely different thing when it comes to males. In fact, the real fallacy of common feminism is trying to replace one set of double standards with another instead of trying to do away with them.

 

Incorrect.  Again, it comes down to diversity.  It took me zero seconds to come up with a popular male character protagonist that does not come close to an idealized physique.  Yes, hyper idealized men exist (and frankly, I do consider it a problem as well), but like I said above it comes down to diversity.

 

Feminism, at its core, is simply having men and women being treated equally.  It's exceptionally important to note that feminism agrees that men are treated unfairly with respect to things like having the pressures of being the primary income earner for a family, that they are typically denied jobs that are considered only appropriate for female (nursing was the big one - and in many cases men still get teased for this), and the big one that often comes up is child custody.  The problem, of course, is moderate perspectives don't proliferate.  No one cares about the moderate posts, but when some man hating misandrist goes around people will share that ("Look at this crazy person") point and laugh, and make implicit assumptions to how common that perspective is simply based on how frequently it's posed.

 

 

Exposure is important.  For the same reasons YOU get annoyed because you see something like this SO much, the other people are feeling over exposed to things like excessively endowed women and it's making them annoyed.  Does this link even get shared here if it's about the MMO making less idealized male physiques?  Does Nepenthe get upset?  Or is it something that doesn't register because it's a topic that simply doesn't come up enough?

 

 

 

The ironic part is that I would never have identified as a feminist until the frothing anti-feminists (not so much you, but the people that have extreme and unhealthy retorts to people like Anita Sarkeesian wanting to do a video) created such vitriol that not only did they expose me to topics and perspectives that I hadn't really given much thought towards, they also provided a perspective that I had a particular aversion towards which pushed me away from the perspective they were championing.

 

 

Gaming is becoming mainstream, and it's not just "ours" anymore.  The muscle bound meathead of Gears of War is likely not going away though, nor will women with very large breasts.  But there's dozens upon dozens of games that don't feature the muscle bound meathead like Marcus Fenix.  But with that comes people that are going to have issues with other things than you and I care about, and they're going to talk about them.

 

While excessively large breasts are more likely to get me to do an eye roll rather than anything else, other people are perfectly within their right to voice their own concerns for what they feel increases or decreases the level of enjoyment they receive from the game.

 

 

(NOTE: If we want to have a more detailed discussion of feminism, and specifically feminism in video games, we should probably take it to its own thread).

[Nonek]

Personally I don't particularly care what characters look like so much, more what they do and how their character is portrayed, if a character is pro-active, intelligent, self motivated and driven with an understandable and logical motive then i'm more likely to empathise with the individual. I only really object to clothing and vulgar displays of sexualisation when they ring false, for instance when the character is involved in heavy and repetitive melee they should wear armour or be dead or hideously scarred and inactive for long periods of time convalescing. Or for instance if a character wears impractical clothing in cold climates, they should obviously spend most of their time passing out from hypothermia or losing blackened body parts.

 

For instance Marcus Fenix's bare arms have always sparked a dissonance in me, or the bare head of Captain Titus in Space Marine, though after his acquisition of the Iron Halo that is not so much of a problem. Personally i'd have just had him clip his helm on to his belt during cutscenes, or simply hold it in the crook of his arm Diablo 1 style.

 

As for stifling the variety of protagonist's and npc's or making them adhere to a set list of commonly percieved (not correct by any means) politically correct limitations, then i'm against it. Obviously form follows function in terms of armour and armaments, but stylisation has its place as well, and what i'm more against is the vanilla, dull and tired representation of every aspect in gaming. From the dark haired and blue eyed caucasian protagonist with some amount of facial hair (always pretty) whom is simply an unquestioning unmotivated janitor for higher powers, to the blunt, crude and demeaning adulation with which he is invariably treated no matter his deeds by all and sundry.

[Malcador]

Ah, the precious outrage only tumblr can supply.   Ellie from Borderlands 2 was one non-idealistic female character, she was well liked as any other in the game from observations of people talking about them. 

 

Thought SM officers like going bare headed just as a proud display, big on bravado and all that.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Malcador

[TSBasilisk]

New Alien: Isolation screenshots give a better look at our most beloved childhood nightmare

[GhostofAnakin]

 

It's more an issue with diversity.  I mean, look at Mario.

 

Although "I mean, apparently big breasted female video game characters give a bad message to girls" is somewhat telling, given that I'd argue it's not the girls that it sends the wrong message to.  It also has the implication that it's exclusively women that have issues with this.  Frankly, I think it sends a bad message to everyone.

 

I don't care much for Marcus Fenix body types.  Nor do I care for Tomb Raider 2-esque Lara Croft body types.  Unfortunately I feel oversaturated with them that I tend to bring additional, and sometimes unfair, assumptions into character archetypes and the games that go with them as a result of this (mostly because I'm human).

 

 

Men with suboptimal body types are still represented.  How often are women with suboptimal body types presented?  More importantly, what responses does she normally receive?  I mean, the mere fact that the body type has been changed in the MMO appears to be threatening to people.  If we're truly measuring the value on purely their function, shouldn't we not care how they look?

 

 

I don't think it's an issue of diversity at all.  Maybe to you it is.  But the general complaints I read about this stuff never mention more variety of body types.  They're just dead set against female video game characters having huge breasts and tiny waists.

 

My issue is this never seems to crop up with male video game characters.  You bring up Mario as an example of diversity, but what about the hundreds of other leading men?  Even old guys, like Sam Fisher, have the kind of physiques that most middle aged men can't hope to compete with.  Yet there's no complaint about the unrealistic expectations these characters are putting on males.

 

And really, when shows like Real Housewives of LA or other reality shows with women who are more "fake" than any video game character are the most watched by women on television, it smacks a bit of hypocrisy.

[AwesomeOcelot]

So basically, "I don't care for these ubiquitous body types in games so I'm going to make up insincere nonsensical moral arguments why they shouldn't be ubiquitous". Unattainable ideals in fiction aren't a problem, unless you're an idiot. Sexuality expressed in fiction isn't a problem, unless you're a prude.

 

Notice I don't go around saying that "QTEs take away the challenge, responsibility, and creativity away from player, it sends bad messages", because I'm not mental, but if you don't care for popular body types, or you're a prude, then people just make up some nonsense about bad messages.

 

It's not even as if there's a coherent plan to curtail fetishes and ideals, if that's even possible, you can change course but you're never going to stop extremes because that's inherent in them. Inability to accept failure and unrealistic expectations are the problem, I'd suggest they're a heavy influence on games where you get modern trends like QTEs and AI snipers are programmed to miss always. Changing games isn't going to solve that problem, it's only going to make less popular games and there's always going to be developers willing to step up and make popular games if others aren't willing to.

[LadyCrimson]

Yeah, that's why most women want to make their boobs bigger through surgery, wear push up bras, decolletes, etc etc. BECAUSE they think big boobs are offensive. Hahhaahahaha.

I think that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) that comes about because some women feel doing such is a path to getting more attention/getting the job/fame they want and/or will make them feel better or more confident about themselves etc.

 

Which becomes more of an issue of body self-esteem and the possible negative influences that media over-saturation may have on said self-esteem, rather than that an image is morally offensive. Such pressure applies to both genders and to more than just big boobs (face-lifts, neck-lifts, the whole beauty/image industry etc).

 

I don't see anything wrong with people voicing their dislike for not having more body-image options. If the game companies eventually then want to change things here and there, because they believe enough of their audience for their game would like to see some different approaches, that's their decision to make, just as it's their decision to change some combat mechanic because of some user-poll....

[Oerwinde]

I don't think it's an issue of diversity at all. Maybe to you it is. But the general complaints I read about this stuff never mention more variety of body types. They're just dead set against female video game characters having huge breasts and tiny waists.

Reminds me of people who rail against Disney because they don't think there should ever be another white Disney Princess because there are already enough and making another one is somehow racist.

[Humanoid]

As a fan of the more streamlined female form, does it not mean that I can now accuse the developers of objectifying women *more* with this move?

 

/philosoraptor

[Bester]

I think that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) that comes about because some women feel doing such is a path to getting more attention/getting the job/fame they want and/or will make them feel better or more confident about themselves etc.

No. You're trying to rationalize instinctual behavior, which is a frequent amateur mistake. Females' lives are built around their instinct to attract the strongest of males and get their sеmen. It may sound chauvinist, but I mean no offense. It's just that it's really all there's to it.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Bester

[BruceVC]

 

 

You're starting to see stuff like that too, actually.

 

I'm going on a crusade to make sure all male video game characters have more realistic physiques.  That is, pot bellies and can't run for more than 50 feet without huffing and puffing.

 

I mean, apparently big breasted female video game characters give a bad message to girls.  So the same should really apply to the risk of boys feeling bad about their bodies because they don't look like those muscle-bound hunks in their video games.

 

 

It's more an issue with diversity.  I mean, look at Mario.

 

Although "I mean, apparently big breasted female video game characters give a bad message to girls" is somewhat telling, given that I'd argue it's not the girls that it sends the wrong message to.  It also has the implication that it's exclusively women that have issues with this.  Frankly, I think it sends a bad message to everyone.

 

I don't care much for Marcus Fenix body types.  Nor do I care for Tomb Raider 2-esque Lara Croft body types.  Unfortunately I feel oversaturated with them that I tend to bring additional, and sometimes unfair, assumptions into character archetypes and the games that go with them as a result of this (mostly because I'm human).

 

 

Men with suboptimal body types are still represented.  How often are women with suboptimal body types presented?  More importantly, what responses does she normally receive?  I mean, the mere fact that the body type has been changed in the MMO appears to be threatening to people.  If we're truly measuring the value on purely their function, shouldn't we not care how they look?

 

 

 

 

No, that's exactly the feminist fallacy. That portraying women with an idealized physique somehow cheapens them, and yet is a completely different thing when it comes to males. In fact, the real fallacy of common feminism is trying to replace one set of double standards with another instead of trying to do away with them.

 

Incorrect.  Again, it comes down to diversity.  It took me zero seconds to come up with a popular male character protagonist that does not come close to an idealized physique.  Yes, hyper idealized men exist (and frankly, I do consider it a problem as well), but like I said above it comes down to diversity.

 

Feminism, at its core, is simply having men and women being treated equally.  It's exceptionally important to note that feminism agrees that men are treated unfairly with respect to things like having the pressures of being the primary income earner for a family, that they are typically denied jobs that are considered only appropriate for female (nursing was the big one - and in many cases men still get teased for this), and the big one that often comes up is child custody.  The problem, of course, is moderate perspectives don't proliferate.  No one cares about the moderate posts, but when some man hating misandrist goes around people will share that ("Look at this crazy person") point and laugh, and make implicit assumptions to how common that perspective is simply based on how frequently it's posed.

 

 

Exposure is important.  For the same reasons YOU get annoyed because you see something like this SO much, the other people are feeling over exposed to things like excessively endowed women and it's making them annoyed.  Does this link even get shared here if it's about the MMO making less idealized male physiques?  Does Nepenthe get upset?  Or is it something that doesn't register because it's a topic that simply doesn't come up enough?

 

 

 

The ironic part is that I would never have identified as a feminist until the frothing anti-feminists (not so much you, but the people that have extreme and unhealthy retorts to people like Anita Sarkeesian wanting to do a video) created such vitriol that not only did they expose me to topics and perspectives that I hadn't really given much thought towards, they also provided a perspective that I had a particular aversion towards which pushed me away from the perspective they were championing.

 

 

Gaming is becoming mainstream, and it's not just "ours" anymore.  The muscle bound meathead of Gears of War is likely not going away though, nor will women with very large breasts.  But there's dozens upon dozens of games that don't feature the muscle bound meathead like Marcus Fenix.  But with that comes people that are going to have issues with other things than you and I care about, and they're going to talk about them.

 

While excessively large breasts are more likely to get me to do an eye roll rather than anything else, other people are perfectly within their right to voice their own concerns for what they feel increases or decreases the level of enjoyment they receive from the game.

 

 

(NOTE: If we want to have a more detailed discussion of feminism, and specifically feminism in video games, we should probably take it to its own thread).

 

 

Wow what a good post. I have said this before and I'll say it again, you can really articulate a point in a way that I find is almost impossible to disagree with. I read your posts and I think "how come I can't get my message across like that ?"

 

Nice one

Edited January 21, 2014 by BruceVC

[alanschu]

Moved to a new thread, here, since people can get pissy at me for derailing the news thread

Edited January 21, 2014 by alanschu

[LadyCrimson]

Moved to a new thread, here, since people can get pissy at me for derailing the news thread

This thread is also reaching that post limit range, so this seems like as good a time as any to close it and start a new one.