Update #67: What's in a Game?

[ManifestedISO]

 

There are a lot of unique weapons and the player can add enchantments.

 

 

Puh-pow!! CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY 

[coffeetable]

Brandon - the spreadsheet shows that the first batch of Kickstarter NPCs is due to be done for Production 02 Milestone. But the questionnaires haven't gone out yet, have they? And wasn't the State of the Project update back in August at the end of the Production 01 Milestone?

[NoTorious]

Horrible, really horrible for me. If u continue making updates like this im soon be forced to pleage another 10€, or wait.. lets say if u deliver it in may 2014 i do it.

 

Promised!

 

I WANT TO PLAY IT!

[SophosTheWise]

I wonder who Emilio Valtas is. Sounds really Vailian. 

[Lephys]

I wonder who Emilio Valtas is. Sounds really Vailian. 

 

I dunno, but it sound a lot like you might've killed his father, and probably should prepare to die.

[Messier-31]

 

I wonder who Emilio Valtas is. Sounds really Vailian. 

 

I dunno, but it sound a lot like you might've killed his father, and probably should prepare to die.

 

This one never gets old.

[Monte Carlo]

[CalamityDrive]

I thought the update was good and would like to read more like it. To be honest, this was actually the first PE update I can remember reading out completely and not just skimming through.

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

Hello again !

 

Another little question i had by looking at Cadegund.

 

In your wiki it is said that "Her breastplate bears the image of flaming bomb, a symbol associated with Magran, a goddess of war and fire [...]".

 

So i thought : When you create a priest, is there an option that can allows you to choose his worshiping god ? And if so, does it grants you some different spells than the others priests, or abilities, or passive bonuses, or whatever ?

 

Post Scriptum : it looks like i'm already addicted to your game and news.

 

 

EDIT : My question works as well for monks, paladin, rangers and druids.

Edited November 15, 2013 by ProjectBG2Respawn

[silni]

 

 

Hey Obsidian just stopped by to say that this is looking AWESOME! The graphics are wonderful! Keep it up cant wait!

spoiler to lessen the post height

In light of this one, I'm curious. Will we be able to click stuff (Question-marks or whatnot) and gain more information? For instance, the table with the big map:

"There's a big map here showing the world" or something.

 

 

Yes.  We do this a lot, all over the place.  You will see a question mark cursor and can click for a text pop-up with more info.

In my opinion, interactive environment is a very important part of making the game world feel alive. When we speak about 3D games, it's very nice to have an engine where a lot of things in the environment are movable and destructible. For example this, was a big issue for me in latest Deus Ex, the art is nice, but the environment is terribly static, you cannot move or shoot 1 single thing on the office table.

 

When we speak about games with 2D environment, the above is not an option, and one of the things you can do to make the game world feel alive is to have a lot of narrative and feedback about environment. Fallout comes to mind here, with the option to change the cursor to question mark and get information about things on the screen, so it's great to know you will be implementing a lot of info pop-ups.

 

I am wondering, will the characters/narrative in the game offer feedback and comments without player input, for example after your characters arrive on a new map, when they witness certain events, meet new people, venture deeper into the mega dungeon? I think it would be a nice addition to the game.

[Lephys]

Hello again !

 

Another little question i had by looking at Cadegund.

 

In your wiki it is said that "Her breastplate bears the image of flaming bomb, a symbol associated with Magran, a goddess of war and fire [...]".

 

So i thought : When you create a priest, is there an option that can allows you to choose his worshiping god ? And if so, does it grants you some different spells than the others priests, or abilities, or passive bonuses, or whatever ?

 

 

Or, the better question:

 

Can you choose a god, and, if so, does it grant you different breastplate logos?

 

No, seriously though, good question.

 

 

In my opinion, interactive environment is a very important part of making the game world feel alive. When we speak about 3D games, it's very nice to have an engine where a lot of things in the environment are movable and destructible. For example this, was a big issue for me in latest Deus Ex, the art is nice, but the environment is terribly static, you cannot move or shoot 1 single thing on the office table.

 

When we speak about games with 2D environment, the above is not an option, and one of the things you can do to make the game world feel alive is to have a lot of narrative and feedback about environment. Fallout comes to mind here, with the option to change the cursor to question mark and get information about things on the screen, so it's great to know you will be implementing a lot of info pop-ups.

Actually, if you haven't seen it, you should check out the demo video they did in showing off their improvements to that whole "2D-pre-rendered only" notion. Despite it all being 2D still, they've actually got a bunch of movement/animation going on in the environment. The water, the tall grass and trees moving in the wind, etc. It's pretty remarkable, actually.

 

Of course, I'm not going to say "No" to descriptive text. But, a lot of visual feedback will actually be available without any text at all.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Lephys

[gum661]

 

 

hmm, as long as your system doesn't kill your creative ideas.

If everything has to follow a strict process or ruleset, aren't you worried that you would end up settling for mediocrity because you wouldn't spend more time than is allotted on it?

 

Moderate pressure tends to increase rather than dampen creativity. We are also allocating time for revision at the tail end of development. It's important that we create a world that has a consistent level of quality in a reasonable amount of time. If we are able to do so, we will have more flexibility to improve (or eliminate) weak areas and polish high points as we see fit.

I wonder what the production methods were for Planescape Torment and similar inspired games of that era - were they equally efficiently and economically managed?

 

The problem (seemingly not just) I have with many present mainstream-games that, as you and Brandon highlight, share this kind of production management: they *feel* pipelined, assembly-lined, rushed - like a sum of points that were worked off of a checklist: unpersonal assets that technically are of good quality (because good craftsmen worked on them) but nevertheless feel unpersonal and soul-less. To be consumed and forgotten after a day, regrettably leaving no trail whatsoever.

And I wonder, how can an asset be part of a personal inspired "whole" if it has been outsourced, how can inspiration (not creativity), i.e. something that alights and moves you, be fit into chunks of quarters of days. At least there is another perspective on that matter: that inspiration comes from leisure. I know it's hard to get paid if your productivity can't be timed and measured, but perspectives such as this feel relevant, at least to me. But maybe you can teach me otherwise with the result of this project - I sincerely hope so - so that PE despite such production management will be personal, and not just consumed and forgotten like most products of our contemporal entertainment industry.

 

P.S. As someone said, regrettably I dont remember who: "There really is no place for art in the free market economy, and that's probably why art will outlive it."

Edited November 15, 2013 by gum661

[Lephys]

^ I think that's why they work so hard to make sure everyone's on the same page, and that they're all drawing from that page to make their individual things. They don't just say "Hey, you draw really well... draw us some creature that can be attacked, and when you're done, we'll shelve it for a year, then stick it into the game before it ships out! 8D!"

 

They make sure that the idea for some creature is fashioned first, and that it's relevant to the story, and the lore, and the combat, and the other systems, etc. They make sure all the art's of the same style/etc. (you don't want a creature designed however some artist tends to draw, and the environment designed however some OTHER artist tends to draw). That's what all that pre-production and rigorous structuring is for.

 

Granted, I think you're right that a lot of projects fail because they become TOO "manufacturey." Seems like the super-huge triple-A games would have a bigger problem with this, what with a team of 100+ working on stuff instead of 20 or 30. That, and they sometimes focus a bit too hard on the tools they're using, rather than HOW they're using them. Like getting some big-name voice actor, but not really writing the character to fit very well into the rest of the lore, etc. But who cares, because that person's voice is AWESOME, right?!

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

Or, the better question:

 

Can you choose a god, and, if so, does it grant you different breastplate logos?

 

 

lol

 

"different breastplate logos"

 

Like can we have a "gotta catch 'em all" mode

 

 

Seriously, talking about big teams of developpement, it must be really hard to communicate. At the opposite, in the small teams, it must be really hard to do the work.

 

I had a project with a friend, on RPG maker. Well two buddies can have much ideas and communicate them to each other very easily that's for sure. But when it's time to work...

 

All of this to say : you got to find a proper balance.

 

I'm pretty sure that Obsidian found it. Not too much people in order to communicate, and not too less in order to do the job.

 

Lephys you were talking about the tool and the contents, the best example to me rather than a voice actor is Call Of Duty

[Silent Winter]

 At least there is another perspective on that matter: that inspiration comes from leisure.

Sure - but there's also the old saying that "genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - i.e., it's no good being inspired if it never gets done - takes hard work too.

 

I've got lots of great ideas for stuff, but I've got no deadline and a lot of it ends up unfinished or 'to do'

I remember a few years back, while my wife was pregnant with our son, that I was doing a web-comic.  I set myself a deadline to finish up the main story before the birth (as I knew I'd have no free time after).  That was some of the best work I've done... (granted, a small team of one is easier to organise

Edited November 16, 2013 by Silent Winter

[StrangeCat]

I am going to help some of you out here as you have some misconseptions on time and art.

 

Genius, everyone is a Genius you choose to do what you do and how well you do it.

Another way of saying this is everyone is Devine.

 

Time vs being good at something is a disipline.  People are creatures of habit and you create new habits through your life to mold you and your life style to that habit.

 

Writing music or doing art work on a dead line does not make you better writter then if you had no dead line.

A lot of people will go "oh I created my best work because I had such such time to crank it out."  This works both ways.

One you struggle to come up with what you need or two you create something great because of the dead line.

 

Neither of these make you better or help the process.  You work and how fast you work is because of you disiplined your mind at doing it.  The time line just pushes you to do what you should have as a habit in your lifestyle already.

 

Just remember you have no limitations that are the same as anyone else.  In the end you create your limitations.

 

there is a saying:

Use limitation that is no limitation

use a way that is no way.

[Jymm]

Greetings.  I don't post much, but I read every update.  And I loved this update.  I love the "behind the curtain" development stuff and its one of my favorite things about the new crowd-funding culture.  I've backed about 8-10 different projects and you guys are second only to maybe Star Citizen for the quality and consistency of content for backers during production.  And even those guys are more slick marketing and less real-world details than PE.

 

I appreciate how much effort this really takes, as I've seen these kinds of things in my own work.  Having Brandon spell it out so all can see that an update like this is 7 hours of someone's dedicated time - time away from working on the game itself - just drives it home even more.  Such communication and connection to backers is a major commitment.  I appreciate that Obsidian is making that commitment.  So if it means we have to wait just a little longer or fund you just a little higher to see the thing through, then count me in.

 

Thanks for the great update(s) and keep 'em coming!

[Jymm]

Now that I've gone and said that, I remembered a question I had much earlier in development.  How does the time commitment to keep backers informed and energized compare with the time commitment to keep a traditional publisher informed and committed to your project?

[gum661]

Sure - but there's also the old saying that "genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - i.e., it's no good being inspired if it never gets done - takes hard work too.

 

In don’t think this saying is untrue per se, but, as often as it is promoted nowadays, it might be misleading with regard to the nature of inspiration. Meaning: If you’re truly inspired, you *will* (as a consequence) work hard (and perspire, very automatically). You don’t need to find another reason or motivation to work because per definition you “are moved” by inspiration. The difference to “conventional” hard work is this: the motivation comes from inside of you (making it personal) vs. from outside (e.g. market research, target groups, deadlines, etc.). But as StrangeCat pointed out: deadlines seem to work in both ways depending on what your habit and state of mind are. Also, there seems to be something very relevant about the paradoxical quality of limitations that you, StrangeCat, mention.

 

The problem (at least) I have experienced with inspiration is that it usually comes in holidays, on the toilet, etc., i.e. rather unconsciously when I can leave my mind be – and then, if no other burdens from the outside world occupy me, I usually work on that “personal” project even more concentrated and harder than I would have ever done professionally... usually even faster than any deadline could force me to be. (Even research in management seems to have somehow gotten a grip on this, acknowledging things like “sabbaticals” etc.). This has also worked in small personal teams for me, if I could “alight this fire” in another friend of mine or vice versa, via personal conversation. The organization of such a project was like that of playing jazz then. 

 

Granted, yes, all of this seems difficult with regard to larger teams – however, I think it’s quite relevant to try to preserve personal motivation and inspiration. Since this is something the Team of P:E said to care about – thanks Lephys for the reminder – , I’m at least intrigued about what will come out of this project and if the team is able to preserve the personality and inspiration like the teams of PsT and BG were able to build on it.

Edited November 18, 2013 by gum661

[Ygraine]

I'm new to this forum, but just wanted to log on and say thanks for your hard work. I'm looking forward to more updates, and to the game itself when its finished. So far this looks like the best investment I've made in a long time when it comes to games

[Hassat Hunter]

Pretty late to the party, sorry. Only got around to reading the last few kickstarter updates lately. Should keep myself to reading them right away now to prevent them from pouring up...

 

Anyways, yes, I think this is the best PoE update I've read so far. Very interesting stuff all around, from the spreadsheet, to the screenshot (trigger workings! Placement of NPC's and quest updates!) to the text, everything.

 

Definitely would be interested in more background info like this!

It's a script object that calls functions when a level is done loading. It doesn't have any "physical" appearance in the game.

So it's an item loaded upon level loading, that then does the proper scripting (onenter, heartbeat)? There is no overhead area setting anymore, like IE's .are file or the .are/.git/.ifo from oddessey?

I do wonder then how things like the Area name, music and other such info is set. Inside that level loading item? Or an overhead file, not specifically attached to one specific module?

 

Also, I'm surprise in all these pages no-one spoke about "Currency Conversion". Does it mean we use more and different type of valuta than merely one (gold, credits)? Or is it the balance of currency, so plotting out selling prices of items, costs of upgrades at the stronghold vs. the gold acquired by the PC?

 

I admit I too, was surprised at the 13 days requirement of a 3x3 area. Though ofcourse then it dawned that it was 13 total hours, over various people. As the bottlenecks both were 4 days, this technically means that, aside from the start and stop, a new 3x3 area could be produced per 4 days. Pretty impressive. Of course, we wouldn't want merely 3x3 maps, I wonder how big maps are (avarage, maximum... what's the biggest around), and of course the time requirement would raise somewhat exponentionally (as said, 9 maps to 16) making those. Are in those cases multiple artists working on an area (and then merge the look in the end)? Or does one artists stay on an area to provide consistency?

And of course if like in the example plotting a room takes 1 day (for concept and a pre-model for testing) upon 4 days off working it out, is this actually used to try out about 4 rooms per one actually being worked out fully?

I assume so since of course if a map completely stalls early on, it wouldn't take the long artists time to fully craft the map further.

 

Anyway, I think I have asked enough questions for about now (and I can't recall more, will probably post them if I do). As said, a very interesting update. And yes, I would like to know behind the system. For interest, for potential future modding (probably no mapping though XD, but the triggers, map info, enemy placement and stuff would be useful for that), just to spend a few hours brainstorming, and see if it matches what actually experienced people conclude. So keep 'em coming!!!

[Mazhlekov]

The best Update so far!!!
Thank you!

[Hassat Hunter]

So, with the new update out, seriously no-one still cares about this "Currency Conversion" that has yet to be explained, or discussed.

No-one cares? Is that even possible with even the littlest details getting their own thread or 5?

[JFSOCC]

I care, but I think it's going to be an interesting addition.

[Hassat Hunter]

I guess I was too late to have any questions answered.

Teaches me to read updates late... *joins the newest while still fresh*