Update #60: Camaraderie

[Xienzi]

why so much focus on romance i would rather have a feeling of getting somewhere with my companions friendships

 

Yeah, romance should be one of the very last things to be worked on.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Xienzi

[RabidRatMonkey]

 

why so much focus on romance i would rather have a feeling of getting somewhere with my companions friendships

 

Yeah, romance should be one of the very last things to be worked on.

 

I'm OK with romance as long as it is meaningful story/motivation-wise. I am not very fond of the "choose your bed partner" approach in the latest Bioware games. On the other hand, I have fond memories on courting Bastila through the game with the implications that had. Annah's teasing in PS:T was cool as hell, too.

Edited July 26, 2013 by RabidRatMonkey

[igorina]

Great update. To me companions provide the best feeling of immersion in the game. It is good to know, that they will be so varied and somehow independent.

I enjoy complex characters, with own agendas and point of view. I would enjoy romantic plot also as a natural part of many fantasy stories. I just would like it to be challenging, intelligent, difficult and meaningful, definitely not latest bioware style..

[Lady Evenstar]

 

why so much focus on romance i would rather have a feeling of getting somewhere with my companions friendships

 

Yeah, romance should be one of the very last things to be worked on.

 

Romances are low priority for me also, but given the limited number of companions, I can see why you might want to flag a character as a potential romance early in the development process rather than re-purpose an existing character. Characters can be designed to be fun both as romances and as non-romanced party members. If you don't plan ahead for romances, you're liable to get ... Anomen, whom many women found unsatisfactory as the sole love interest for female characters in BG II.

[dodusieczek]

Amazing update note! Great pics! I'm looking forward to see companions portraits!

[forgottenlor]

 

 

why so much focus on romance i would rather have a feeling of getting somewhere with my companions friendships

 

Yeah, romance should be one of the very last things to be worked on.

 

I'm OK with romance as long as it is meaningful story/motivation-wise. I am not very fond of the "choose your bed partner" approach in the latest Bioware games. On the other hand, I have fond memories on courting Bastila through the game with the implications that had. Annah's teasing in PS:T was cool as hell, too.

 

 

I think KOTOR was the most recent game I played where a romance didn't feel contrived. 

[rjshae]

Thank you for the update; your illustrations reminded me of the old Wizardry I manual so it was a nice retro throwback there. I look forward to seeing what you put together in terms of a character mix and their interactions. My one suggestion would be to consider giving one of them a non-fatal handicap of some kind. Seeing how a character deals with their liabilities, as well as how they compensate using their capabilities, makes for a deeper experience. Thanks.

 

Note that I never received an e-mail notice, so I'm not sure if you are still sending those out.

[Sensuki]

I don't think there's been many romances in cRPGs that hasn't felt like it was written for 14 year olds. I thought The Witcher 2 was ok, since it was canonically built into the story that Geralt had a past history with Triss and the other ones are just flings which fits with Geralt's character. Also KotOR2 maybe because it was explicitly related to the Exile's "Hole in the Force" thingo that seemed to affect companions around him/her.

 

Anyway IF there is any it would be nice to see something on a more adult level than some horrible hollywood garbage. People like BruceVC are still in Aerie-mode where they want to be able to 'win' the relationship game and live happily ever after or whatever.

It'd be nice to see something more about how close friendships are developed - you've come together with a bunch of people to solve a mystery, you're probably going to be going through hell and back to solve stuff and be in many tough situations, this type of stuff does form a bond between people.

It would also be interesting to see some conflict/conflict of interest stuff where you have opposing goals with a companion and either the PC or the companion has to choose between the goal of their faction/religion/whateva and the other person.

[MuseBreaks]

Thanks for the update. I've posted a thread that concerns companions and the plot because this is the most important aspect in my opinion in a story driven infinity game.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63340-party-system/

I really hope that you would be able to make the party-companion-mechanism-plot work really good and fluent. First I think each companion should be heavily important to the main plot-arch and / or specifically and emotionally connected to the player somehow, and not some random encounter with the "hey you look interesting let me come along with you" fashion. In each of the infinity games my core party was always consisted of the same members, those members that were closest to the player, while the rest kept changing. For instance in Baldur's Gate 2, I always took with me Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc and Yoshimo in each play through no exception and the reason is because I felt the four/five of us "are in this together" kind of feeling, since we escaped Irenicus' dungeon together. I never had that feeling for the other available companions.

The second issue is about swapping and changing companions. If all of them are important to the player and / or the main plot, there should be some kind of mechanism for us to be able to switch companions whenever needed. It should be some kind of party camp or stronghold (similar to the Dragon Age party camp mechanism) but furthermore there should also be realistic situations which force you to change party members during some parts of the game. This could contribute heavily to the reality and the diversity of the game. Companions are real people and they have their own business and the world is also real, so things could go wrong and your party can be split for example against your wishes. It happens in adventures and that's the fun. Companions should betray you (like the Yoshimo case in BG2, which opened an available slot to take Imoen with you in Spellhold), they should be kidnapped, split from you, leave you for a while etc. These kind of situations would allow you to enjoy ALL of the available 8 companions, bond with all of them and complete their story-archs and complete their relativity to the main plot. Also it doesn't necessarily mean you won't see/play them. If your party gets split by an encounter that is connected to the main-plot in a main-plot dungeon (2/3 party members get separated from the main party in a cave for example), you can still make them available to play each time the player goes to sleep for instance (and the explanation would a realistic dream-vision from the player), that way we still play them and follow their plot and their temporary separated journey is also important to drive the main plot and it would be quite cool

[forgottenlor]

I wouldn't say the romances felt like they were written so much by 14 year olds, as to say they didn't feel organic. The Witcher slipped my mind. I haven't played part 2. I actually thought that the Witcher part 1 romance was okay. It wasn't very personal , I felt, since I never felt that much like Geralt. Still I thought it did a somewhat funny take on male-female relationships. 

[Sir Roderick Amplepole]

Eight fine companions keen for adventure and glory, you say? Very well, send them hither and together we shall seek out the most dank, foul smelling crevice and give it a thorough cleansing! Though, be warned, I am an uncompromising leader and will not stop until I get to the bottom of the matter.

 

I have but one concern. Tell me, are these companions a little wordy? When I'm knee deep in excrement and elbow deep in entrails I do not care for tales of broken hearts. I suppose I could indulge a backstory here and there, so long as I am not bludgeoned about the ears with it like a mace. Quite often there is no point.

 

I am reminded of one such time when I led a foray into a red dragon's lair. The excrement was mostly of my companions' in this case. However, under my leadership they managed to overcome their fears and prove to be a worthy distraction whilst I felled the beast. Red dragon aside, the real test was that of my patience. I had gotten very little sleep the night before care of a lass from the nearby village that had no doubt heard of my prowess. In addition, during the march through those caverns, my cod piece began to cause considerable chafing and itch. I was in no mood for the party druid bemoaning the loss of balance; the elven cleric lamenting the loss of some appendage; and the red wizard moaning about only the gods know what (bah.. foreigners they are impossible to understand). The only useful words spoken were those of the party warrior who advised that a hamster down one's breeches could provide some relief to the discomfort I was feeling.

 

Onwards, fellow adventurers!

[Sensuki]

I wouldn't say the romances felt like they were written so much by 14 year olds, as to say they didn't feel organic. The Witcher slipped my mind. I haven't played part 2. I actually thought that the Witcher part 1 romance was okay. It wasn't very personal , I felt, since I never felt that much like Geralt. Still I thought it did a somewhat funny take on male-female relationships. 

 

FOR 14 year olds, not BY 14 year olds. When I first played Baldur's Gate 2 holy **** did I enjoy the romance with Aerie. I was 13 years old and it was just like <3_<3. Now I find it laughable. I also remember really enjoying the Jade Empire one when I was 16 or 17. But yeah I can't even really get through that game now because of the corny dialogue, because it's a cinematic style game it really gets in the way, whereas it's less bothersome in an IE RPG more focused on gameplay like BG2.

 

Mass Effect 1's is also absolutely HILARIOUS. You get about two dialogue sequences between you and Ashley or Liara (soz haven't romanced Kaiden before) before you have to decide who you're taking to bed before the final mission. Complete and utter LOL.

 

And The Witcher 2 has a bit more of a mature take on The Witcher 1's rather cheesy (but still entertaining) style.

 

Thankfully this is Obsidian, and I thought KotOR 2 was okay.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Sensuki

[rjshae]

Seriously? Another romance thread?

[teknoman2]

 

I wouldn't say the romances felt like they were written so much by 14 year olds, as to say they didn't feel organic. The Witcher slipped my mind. I haven't played part 2. I actually thought that the Witcher part 1 romance was okay. It wasn't very personal , I felt, since I never felt that much like Geralt. Still I thought it did a somewhat funny take on male-female relationships. 

 

FOR 14 year olds, not BY 14 year olds. When I first played Baldur's Gate 2 holy **** did I enjoy the romance with Aerie. I was 13 years old and it was just like <3_<3. Now I find it laughable. I also remember really enjoying the Jade Empire one when I was 16 or 17. But yeah I can't even really get through that game now because of the corny dialogue, because it's a cinematic style game it really gets in the way, whereas it's less bothersome in an IE RPG more focused on gameplay like BG2.

 

Mass Effect 1's is also absolutely HILARIOUS. You get about two dialogue sequences between you and Ashley or Liara (soz haven't romanced Kaiden before) before you have to decide who you're taking to bed before the final mission. Complete and utter LOL.

 

And The Witcher 2 has a bit more of a mature take on The Witcher 1's rather cheesy (but still entertaining) style.

 

Thankfully this is Obsidian, and I thought KotOR 2 was okay.

 

well a witcher is the perfect sex partner. he cant get or give STDs, cant get a woman pregnant and so on... the perfect safe sex machine. that's why all women were ready and willing to take Geralt to bed in the first game

[Carlo]

Great update on something that everyone cares about. Especially appreciate the thinking behind companion introduction and interaction, including the issue of overlapping functions. Touches like the more distinctive companion visual profiles are also very welcome and of course more doable now with greater screen resolutions than in the IE days. It sounds like there will be something for everyone, from the backstory and personal quest junkies (like myself) to the shut-up-and-adventure types.

 

And please no more romance topics. Thank you.

[Istmal]

"8 pre-made companions and 8 hired adventurers". What is the difference between one and the another? I belive that both have their own quests etc. etc. What makes them different? 'pre-made' are plot-tied, hired are not?

[Gfted1]

"8 pre-made companions and 8 hired adventurers". What is the difference between one and the another? I belive that both have their own quests etc. etc. What makes them different? 'pre-made' are plot-tied, hired are not?

The 8 pre-made companions will have personalities written by Obsidian. The 8 hired adventurers will be soulless automatons that players roll up in the Adventurers Hall.

[exodiark]

I have but one concern. Tell me, are these companions a little wordy? When I'm knee deep in excrement and elbow deep in entrails I do not care for tales of broken hearts. I suppose I could indulge a backstory here and there, so long as I am not bludgeoned about the ears with it like a mace. Quite often there is no point.

Worry not sire, Obsidian's companions are easily dismiss-able even though they are about to pour the hearts and tears. Just select "Let's talk later" or "I don't have time for this."

[Rostere]

Haha, I must say I really enjoy Chris's Arcanum playthrough...

[rjshae]

 

"8 pre-made companions and 8 hired adventurers". What is the difference between one and the another? I belive that both have their own quests etc. etc. What makes them different? 'pre-made' are plot-tied, hired are not?

The 8 pre-made companions will have personalities written by Obsidian. The 8 hired adventurers will be soulless automatons that players roll up in the Adventurers Hall.

 

Make that soulless automatons with souls...

[smithereen]

 

One thing I am really liking the sound of with regards to companion development of this game is that it seems that in contrast to previous Obsidian titles, the companions (and general writing level) will be of a more adult content - and by that I don't mean nudity or swearing but in tone, quality and theme.

 

The writing in most RPGs is clearly aimed at a PG audience. Games like Dragon Age attempt to be edgy but fail miserably in delivery.

 

I'd like to see some companions/dialogue on the level of The Wire or A Song of Ice and Fire (as much as I hate the TV series, the book dialogue is great).

 

with a character mix of something like McNulty, Kima, Daniels, Freamon, Herc and Carver would be an interesting party haha.

 

I agree. While reading Update 60, my mind wandered to Omar and Bubbs from The Wire. I would be careful that your expectations don't get set too high though, as it's widely agreed that The Wire had some of the best character development of any filmed drama.

)

Chris, can you comment on if the companion writers plan to include themes of addiction? Outcasts, addiction, redemption.. even characters who fall from grace precisely BECAUSE they associate with the PC (kinda like Dak'kon, but you really just get to debase him even further, he doesn't start in 'grace').. these are themes I've been looking for in RPG companions.

 

 

We've had at least a few like this recently. The example of Kaelyn the Dove stands out the most, I think, of a companion who's experiences with the PC can have a hugely negative impact on her life. Most of the party in KotOR2 I think could qualify as well.

[forgottenlor]

 

 

"8 pre-made companions and 8 hired adventurers". What is the difference between one and the another? I belive that both have their own quests etc. etc. What makes them different? 'pre-made' are plot-tied, hired are not?

The 8 pre-made companions will have personalities written by Obsidian. The 8 hired adventurers will be soulless automatons that players roll up in the Adventurers Hall.

 

Make that soulless automatons with souls...

 

 

I hope Obsidian does something with these guys like was done in WIzardry 8. For those of you who have not played that game, the pc created heroes not only had specific voices (like in Icewind Dale) but each voice was tied to a personality (labeled aggressive, laid back, friendly, brawny, loner, chaotic, eccentric etc.) and occasionally the character would comment on in game happenings based on their personality. While this isn't like a companion with his own quests, background, etc. It would add a little more personality to the characters than the Icewind Dale characters had.

[rjshae]

 

 

 

"8 pre-made companions and 8 hired adventurers". What is the difference between one and the another? I belive that both have their own quests etc. etc. What makes them different? 'pre-made' are plot-tied, hired are not?

The 8 pre-made companions will have personalities written by Obsidian. The 8 hired adventurers will be soulless automatons that players roll up in the Adventurers Hall.

 

Make that soulless automatons with souls...

 

 

I hope Obsidian does something with these guys like was done in WIzardry 8. For those of you who have not played that game, the pc created heroes not only had specific voices (like in Icewind Dale) but each voice was tied to a personality (labeled aggressive, laid back, friendly, brawny, loner, chaotic, eccentric etc.) and occasionally the character would comment on in game happenings based on their personality. While this isn't like a companion with his own quests, background, etc. It would add a little more personality to the characters than the Icewind Dale characters had.

 

I had a thought along those lines -- each hireling description could correspond to a secret agenda that encodes specific faction preferences. Hence, a description corresponds to favoring certain factions to varying degrees while having an equally variable dislike for others. It's up to the player to read between the lines and figure out who likes what. At best this approach would only produce a quasi-personality, but it could provide at least some degree of depth and (I'd guess) should be relatively easy to implement: it's just a linear equation of weights based upon the PC's faction standing.

 

The question then is what impact would it have on the game? Would your faction alignments control the hirelings morale, thereby determining their behavior under stressful conditions? Would the hireling leave when their morale falls too low? Would they refuse to fight a faction that they strongly favor? Do they ignore your commands and immediately engage a faction they dislike?

[Lephys]

 

The 8 pre-made companions will have personalities written by Obsidian. The 8 hired adventurers will be soulless automatons that players roll up in the Adventurers Hall.

 

Make that soulless automatons with souls...

 

Ahh, he beat me to it. I was gonna say "If they were soulless, they wouldn't be much good to you, now would they? *le smirk*," but now it's totally too late to say that to any effect, u_u.

 

You may have inadvertently stolen my thunder, rjshae, but I've still got my lightning... *mage hands of lightning-brandishing*... and now it's STEALTH lightning! o_O

Edited July 29, 2013 by Lephys

[Hormalakh]

Anyone know whether there's an update tonight? I was a little unclear from last week. Gotta get my fix....