The general firearms thread!

[Walsingham]

Since Woldan has been struggling with his rifle I thought I should post the Imperial Infantryman's litanies on the subject:

 

 

Litany of Unjamming:

Spirits of the Machine-God, aid
you servant and free his weapon
so he may use it to break his foes.


Litany of Cleanliness:
[when cleaning the outside of the weapon]

Let my hand wipe the grime from
your perfect form,
May you purify with your bolts
of light.


Canticle of Appeasement:

 

[when stripping the weapon]

Be still, spirits,
I do what I must,
Forgive the intrusion,
And give me your trust.

 

Catechism of The Machine

 

[for serious jobs]

 

With your strength you protect me

With my care I repair you,

With sacred oil I appease you,

Be quiet, good spirits

And accept my benediction.

[Azdeus]

And don't forget, for your next time at the range;

 

Litany of accuracy;
"Grant me the sight of the eagle, the calm of the breeze, the patience of a saint and the skill to smite the foe from afar"

[TrashMan]

 

A am dissapoint.

I show a spiffy new AR and no one seems to notice.

 

I'm going to dissapoint you some more then, it's a good looking AR, but I honestly thought it was just a FAMAS copy or modded FAMAS with picatinny rails.

 

 

It's so much better than the FA-MAS its' not even funny

[Walsingham]

Who wants to bet that Woldan tries these and they work?

[Walsingham]

I've just realised that the rituals require holy oil to be effective.

 

In the absence of any better ideas may I suggest you write to Dan Abnett, with a return post paid parcel and some gun oil? Explain your predicament and I'm sure he'd be happy to wave a bolter around and utter some choice oaths.

[Woldan]

[for serious jobs]

 

With your strength you protect me

With my care I repair you,

With sacred oil I appease you,

Be quiet, good spirits

And accept my benediction.

 

So what you're basically telling me is that using the blood and guts of my fallen enemies as lube is not the proper way of maintaining my boomsticks?  

[Gfted1]

Not unless its an AK-47.

[Guard Dog]

I bought a gun I've been wanting for a long time two weeks ago. It's a Kel Tech PMR 30 .22 Mag. It's just a really fun range gun. Plus I love how stable it is even when rapid firing.

[Walsingham]

I bought a gun I've been wanting for a long time two weeks ago. It's a Kel Tech PMR 30 .22 Mag. It's just a really fun range gun. Plus I love how stable it is even when rapid firing.

 

 

Looks tasty

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/daniel-zimmerman/gun-review-kel-tec-pmr-30/

[Monte Carlo]

I bought a gun I've been wanting for a long time two weeks ago. It's a Kel Tech PMR 30 .22 Mag. It's just a really fun range gun. Plus I love how stable it is even when rapid firing.

 

A .22? They all say that. Admit it, you use it for close work. For everything else you've got that tricked-out AR15 and a Dakota Longbow for when you need to put a bit of distance between you and your mark.

 

Edited September 26, 2013 by Monte Carlo

[Woldan]

I bought a gun I've been wanting for a long time two weeks ago. It's a Kel Tech PMR 30 .22 Mag. It's just a really fun range gun. Plus I love how stable it is even when rapid firing.

 

How reliable is it? I've heard good and bad reviews about it, some say the first version had many reliability issues and they fixed in the 2.0 version, others say nothings changed...

Its a nifty gun, thats for sure, I like the carbine though. 

 

[JFSOCC]

I was wondering, there's a lot of opinions (and I mean a LOT of opinions) on which guns are the best. Does anyone know of a place where there is a large database of guns, objectively tested, set to the same standards, described by a large range of objectively quantifiable statistics? (range, accuracy over range, reliability/failure rates, recoil, weight, stopping power, magazine size, cost trigger pull, safety, ambidextrous controls or not, less common features (special de****er, hair triggers, fires underwater) available modifications, etc.)

Edited September 26, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Woldan]

The best gun is the gun you are most comfortable with, don't ever let others tell you what the ''best gun'' is. Even a very reliable accurate weapon platform that seems to be awesome in theory might ergonomically suck for you, and you can only find out if you like the ergonomics of a specific gun by touching, handling and shooting it.
There is no way around test-shooting a firearm before buying it.(unless its a collectors piece and you want it to put it in your collection)

But first of all you have to determine the purpose of the weapon.- Self protection? Starting a WW2 collection? Long range precision shooting? There is no gun that can do all the things above.

By the way, when reading gun magazines and gun reviews take everything they say with a grain of salt, they're not independent reviewers, pretty much all of them are paid which explains why they usually only praise the stuff they're reviewing like its the best thing ever.
Its like the current situation in video games magazine business.

[JFSOCC]

Well, from my completely amateur perspective, I imagine that I would want a lightweight, quiet, highly accurate (after all, accuracy can be trained, and a bullet in the head is all the stopping power you need) gun with a very light (hair) trigger.

 

I've been browsing the web, and so far the coolest gun seems to be the HK mk 23 SOCOM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MK23

(laser sights, match grade barrel, subsonic bullets and suppressor, low recoil, highly wear resistant, and .45 has much more stopping power (apparently)

what's not to love. (IE why compromise) but then, this gun is frickin 17 years old.

I have no ****ing clue how hyped it is, or of there are betters out there.

 

I'm not really looking to own, (doubtful anyway, laws in this country, plus military grade weapon, etc) but I still have my boyish infatuation with guns, and this gun just seems wicked cool.

 

Also aside from sidearms, the Auto Assault 12 looks amazing

(lightweight automatic shotgun with effective range of 200 yards, 10k shots before cleaning, can fire upside down, can get wet or dirty and still fire, low recoil, and can fire grenade rounds, yeehaw!)

as does the HK 416 (the long barrel one)

Which is also gas operated, also works when dirty or wet, also wear resistant, also lightweight, extremely moddable(!)

seems a solid gun.

 

But I must confess my ignorance, most of my knowledge comes from changing the channel and staying on the future weapons show on discovery.

I own one gun, it's made in the 1800's in Either Belgium or the Netherlands (Luik or Maastricht) and is a civilian gun. Also the barrel is slightly bent.

Edited September 26, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Woldan]

I don't want to sound harsh, but you really have to visit a gun range (many gun ranges have loan weapons) and gather first hand experience and raw data if you are interested in that matter. Also get a good instructor to teach you the basics.

Forget using discovery channel or games to gather information about firearms and shooting, they all should be sued for the misinformation they're spreading about that topic every day.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Woldan

[JFSOCC]

hence why I asked if you know a site which at least compares all the objective data, so one could make his own pre-selection.

[Woldan]

I think this is exactly what you're looking for: http://www.outdoorpodcast.com/uploads/Beginners_Guide_to_Buying_Firearms_eBook.pdf

 

If you have any questions about firearms just ask me.

[Walsingham]

It really is very personal. I had all sorts of opinions on automatic handguns, until I fired some and realised I just don't get along with them.

 

Not sure why you want a lightweight trigger. Woldan will correct me, but I thought one wanted a solid pull relative to the recoil of the gun. It helps your body naturally brace for the recoil.

[Monte Carlo]

^ What they all said.

 

If you want a pistol for self-defence that is a piece of piss to operate, is safe and reliable I keep coming back to Glocks. I think I called them the Five-series BMW of the handgun world.

 

People obsess over performance and the fractional difference between match-grade ammo 'A' versus match-grade ammo 'B' but if all you really need to worry about is a ten metre sense-of-direction shot that will take down the other guy then a Glock-17 (chambered however you like) is a pretty good choice.

 

I consistently achieved impressive groupings at 25 metres on the 17, something I struggled with using SiG and Browning Hi-Power (don't like the Browning much). Mind you, I am left-handed.

[Nepenthe]

I don't want to sound harsh, but you really have to visit a gun range (many gun ranges have loan weapons) and gather first hand experience and raw data if you are interested in that matter. Also get a good instructor to teach you the basics.

Forget using discovery channel or games to gather information about firearms and shooting, they all should be sued for the misinformation they're spreading about that topic every day.

 

And I can confirm that the Finnish Army didn't qualify as a "good instructor". Ok, maybe they figured that a Civilian Affairs guy doesn't have to be a marksman.

[JFSOCC]

Thanks, you're a great help. I still wonder if there is some database site, if only so I can see what there is to choose from.

[Woldan]

Not sure why you want a lightweight trigger. Woldan will correct me, but I thought one wanted a solid pull relative to the recoil of the gun. It helps your body naturally brace for the recoil.

Sorry Wals, you are wrong, you definitely want a light crisp trigger, and you do NOT want to brace yourself for the recoil.

The heavier a trigger is the more you move the gun with your finger when pulling the trigger, and any movement just before the shot breaks results in extreme inaccuracy. Try it out.

Get a handgun with a very heavy trigger pull, c0ck it (make sure the magazine is empty and there is no round in the chamber), point it in a safe direction, aim at a random object (ideally as wide as the front sight) and slowly pull the trigger.

You'll notice that your grip tightens just before the shot breaks and the entire gun moves, this guarantees you to miss even at moderate ranges.

A heavy trigger is bad in every aspect, all target guns and most quality firearms have adjustable triggers. My precision rifle has a trigger pull of less than a half pound.

You can shoot accurately with heavy triggers but it takes a LOT of practice, it will always be uncomfortable and you will never be as accurate as with a gun that has a smooth crisp light trigger.

 

Thats why double action revolvers are usually shot with manually c0cking the hammer after each shot even though you could fire them just pulling the trigger without even touching the hammer. But c0cking the hammer manually makes the trigger a lot lighter.

 

Self defence guns usually have a heavier trigger, accuracy does not play such a big role in SD situations and the heavy trigger prevents the shooter from firing the gun accidentally or prematurely.

 

Anticipation for recoil or bracing yourself for the recoil is the worst thing you can do, the shot needs to surprise you (a little bit), you depress the trigger until the shot breaks, you do not jerk the trigger and anticipate the shot. What happens when you anticipate recoil? You'll lose your relaxed stance, you will tighten your muscles and most people will close their eyes just before the shot breaks.

I guarantee you you're not going to hit ANYTHING if you anticipate the shot/recoil.

Thats actual the hardest thing for a beginner to learn, not to anticipate the recoil, not to flinch, the shooter has to be completely relaxed till the bullet has left the barrel.

 

And I can confirm that the Finnish Army didn't qualify as a "good instructor". Ok, maybe they figured that a Civilian Affairs guy doesn't have to be a marksman.

Ah, my time in the military, there I learned how to properly clean toilets, how to put on my entire winter gear in 60 seconds, how to make my bed with a ruler, how to unload and refill my entire locker in 5 minutes, how to parade while being asleep......

I don't remember them teaching me how to shoot a rifle accurately though. But thats not important for cannon fodder, just pull the trigger and hope for the best till a sniper spots you and empties your skull.

 

The STG77 was cool though, really nice gun.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Woldan

[Tsuga C]

Dead on advice from Woldan.    Oh, and if you do develop a flinch, Wals, then I recommend shooting a .22LR or something similarly light for a bit to allow the flinch to dissipate.

[Walsingham]

Well, I did say you'd correct me.

 

EDIT:

 

I haven't any use for shooting skills, really. I enjoy the discipline, but have a tonne of other things I need to boost off my to do list first.

 

Much the same reason I don't own a dog.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Walsingham

[Woldan]

Today I had a WTF moment at the shooting range.

I was trying out reloads in a couple of milsurp rifles when a hunter next to me decided to shoot his ultra expensive scoped rifle (Steyr Mannlicher pro hunter rifle, .270WIn, about 2200 bucks, Swarovski scope, another 2 grands) to test if the rifle is sighted in correctly for the coming hunting season.
Later after a couple of rounds we walked to the 100m targets and I was pissed because my groups weren't that great, most were 3'' (with iron sights).

Out of curiosity I looked at the target of the hunter, he shoot a 10'' pattern. Not a group, a pattern. With his scoped rifle. And that was under perfect conditions, hes not going to have a chair and a perfect rifle rest out in the woods. The funny thing is he appeared to be happy with the result, he turned around and left with a smile.    
That rifle and scope combo was excellent and he should have shot sub-1-inch groups at 100, easily.

I don't even know how you can fail so hard with a scoped rifle, I seriously couldn't shoot that bad if I wanted to or if I shot that rifle from my freaking hip while having an epileptic seizure.

I feel sorry for the animals hes going to shoot, I'm sure he'll seriously maim them but there is no way that guy makes a clean killing shot at anything other than close ranges.
Its the duty of a responsible hunter to be able to take game cleanly and without suffering, I have no respect for deranged idiots like that. 

 

Anyway, decided to make a random pic of the shooting range, because....I don't know why.  

 

.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Woldan