Romance, Marriage, Pregnancy and having Children.

[FlintlockJazz]

^ See? Look how reasonable that was. I don't think that hurt anyone... Did it, Flintlock?

 

 

 

It did, many Bothans died to bring you that post.

 

 

 

Brilliant post, I don't agree with everything but it was a brilliant post - and now I'm determined to have your hat

 

 

Did I mention there's a thermal detonator in there?  Halbech betrayal ending!

 

 

 

The majority of gamers couldn't care less. That said it is a very, very popular feature on BSN.

 

It's a very popular feature with many people that are fans of RPGs, particularly ones like Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 2.  The reaction to romances was probably the biggest surprise of BG2.  They were ridiculously well received.

 

Despite not being a fan of them personally, I disagree with the implication that their popularity is constrained to something like the BioWare Social Network (hence why the topic continually gets brought up in pretty much every RPG developer's forum).

 

They were well-received, but I wonder how much of that reception was due to them being romances and how much was simply having the interaction increase those romances provided.  If you didn't romance someone you didn't get anywhere near as much dialog with them as you did if you did romance them, and I wonder if it would have been as well received if not possibly even better received if instead of romance tracks they had done friendship tracks.  Cause and correlation, if you get me. Romance gave the illusion of interaction in a game that lacked other options.

 

People (myself at one point) think that the BG2 romances brought something to the game when really it was the lack of interaction from the non-romanceable characters that made it look like that.  I used to get pissed off when you had to choose between them not because I wanted to bone them but because it would mean the other character would them pretty much never talk again and any character development would stop. 

 

Plus, the romances were actually pretty dire when you looked at them: you had Jaheira who was telling you about the 'dreams' she was having to justify jumping you before her husband was even cold in the ground (partly because she didn't even bother burying the poor bastard), which were pretty creepy if you actually think about it, Aerie the baby-inventory-item spawner that seemed like a 12 year old and gave off pedophillic vibes, and Viconia, who I now realise was Morrigan version 0.1.  So why were they so well-received?  Because of character interaction, which can be achieved with other forms of interaction nowadays, ones that don't cut off all other forms of interaction with other characters.

 

 

 

Oh, I finally remembered the extra stuff I wanted to mention.  If they really must have bisexual romance options to appeal to all, then lets cut down on the work even more and make a romance option a bisexual hermaphrodite!  Armed with both boobs and balls he/she can satisfy both genders as well as both orientations by themself!  That's right ladies and gentlemen, you get two for one! 

Edited July 24, 2013 by FlintlockJazz

[BruceVC]

 

I have a simple objective or PE and Obsidian. I want PE to have the support of the various Bioware games like DA and ME and of course the BSN.

 

I just don't believe romances are the key to this. I would seriously doubt you would see a massive sales drop off in a bioware game where romance wasn't included.

 

All your are doing is trying to connect sales to romance based on your desire to see romance in the game.

 

 I believe that most people would prefer Romance over MP, but I wouldn't mind someone creating a Poll to get a sense of what people want.

 

As I mentioned numerous times Romance is not the only thing that defines an RPG, but it is something that is very popular and will increase the fan base.

 

So I'm not trying to connect anything. I am merely stating the facts which are you will increase the interest in the game if you have Romance as we know Romance is popular. By increasing interest in the game the corollary of this should be people actually buying the game, that is how Romance is linked to sales

 

The only logical counter argument to my point is if you don't believe that the majority of people like Romance or rather that including Romance wouldn't draw new people. But based on the success of BSN I would find this rebuttal hard to believe as the facts speak for themselves?

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

I have a simple objective or PE and Obsidian. I want PE to have the support of the various Bioware games like DA and ME and of course the BSN.

 

I just don't believe romances are the key to this. I would seriously doubt you would see a massive sales drop off in a bioware game where romance wasn't included.

 

All your are doing is trying to connect sales to romance based on your desire to see romance in the game.

 

 I believe that most people would prefer Romance over MP, but I wouldn't mind someone creating a Poll to get a sense of what people want.

 

As I mentioned numerous times Romance is not the only thing that defines an RPG, but it is something that is very popular and will increase the fan base.

 

So I'm not trying to connect anything. I am merely stating the facts which are you will increase the interest in the game if you have Romance as we know Romance is popular. By increasing interest in the game the corollary of this should be people actually buying the game, that is how Romance is linked to sales

 

The only logical counter argument to my point is if you don't believe that the majority of people like Romance or rather that including Romance wouldn't draw new people. But based on the success of BSN I would find this rebuttal hard to believe as the facts speak for themselves?

 

Romance drew in a lot of fans on BSN but how many fans did it drive away?  It's easy to know how many you got, almost impossible to know how many you lost since genuine losses don't bother posting on the forums they just go elsewhere.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I have a simple objective or PE and Obsidian. I want PE to have the support of the various Bioware games like DA and ME and of course the BSN.

 

I just don't believe romances are the key to this. I would seriously doubt you would see a massive sales drop off in a bioware game where romance wasn't included.

 

All your are doing is trying to connect sales to romance based on your desire to see romance in the game.

 

 I believe that most people would prefer Romance over MP, but I wouldn't mind someone creating a Poll to get a sense of what people want.

 

As I mentioned numerous times Romance is not the only thing that defines an RPG, but it is something that is very popular and will increase the fan base.

 

So I'm not trying to connect anything. I am merely stating the facts which are you will increase the interest in the game if you have Romance as we know Romance is popular. By increasing interest in the game the corollary of this should be people actually buying the game, that is how Romance is linked to sales

 

The only logical counter argument to my point is if you don't believe that the majority of people like Romance or rather that including Romance wouldn't draw new people. But based on the success of BSN I would find this rebuttal hard to believe as the facts speak for themselves?

 

Romance drew in a lot of fans on BSN but how many fans did it drive away?  It's easy to know how many you got, almost impossible to know how many you lost since genuine losses don't bother posting on the forums they just go elsewhere.

 

 

A valid point but I would argue that including optional Romance in PE won't stop anyone actually buying PE but they may spend less time on the Obsidian forums due to the nature of the debate. I can live with that as it shouldn't impact the revenue stream as people would still purchase PE. To be honest I would be a little surprised and disappointed if people did start boycotting the Obsidian forums due to an increased level of discussions around Romance as surly there would be dozens of other debates outside of Romance that people could start or partake in?

Edited July 24, 2013 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

So now a new argument is that the game needs romances as it'll enhance profitability ?

[BruceVC]

So now a new argument is that the game needs romances as it'll enhance profitability ?

 

Nope its not new, I've been making this point for ages. But its not as simple as that, I would rather say you will increase the fan base as Romances are popular and Romance do draw certain loyal groups of people who love discussing and supporting them. And by increasing the fan base you would assume that these people would buy PE and that will generate more revenue.

[Malcador]

Seems like you are thinking it is simple as that, based on your post. Could argue for a lot of junk that way, though, heh.

[Lurky]

 

So now a new argument is that the game needs romances as it'll enhance profitability ?

 

Nope its not new, I've been making this point for ages. But its not as simple as that, I would rather say you will increase the fan base as Romances are popular and Romance do draw certain loyal groups of people who love discussing and supporting them. And by increasing the fan base you would assume that these people would buy PE and that will generate more revenue.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a simple objective or PE and Obsidian. I want PE to have the support of the various Bioware games like DA and ME and of course the BSN.

 

I just don't believe romances are the key to this. I would seriously doubt you would see a massive sales drop off in a bioware game where romance wasn't included.

 

All your are doing is trying to connect sales to romance based on your desire to see romance in the game.

 

 I believe that most people would prefer Romance over MP, but I wouldn't mind someone creating a Poll to get a sense of what people want.

 

As I mentioned numerous times Romance is not the only thing that defines an RPG, but it is something that is very popular and will increase the fan base.

 

So I'm not trying to connect anything. I am merely stating the facts which are you will increase the interest in the game if you have Romance as we know Romance is popular. By increasing interest in the game the corollary of this should be people actually buying the game, that is how Romance is linked to sales

 

The only logical counter argument to my point is if you don't believe that the majority of people like Romance or rather that including Romance wouldn't draw new people. But based on the success of BSN I would find this rebuttal hard to believe as the facts speak for themselves?

 

Romance drew in a lot of fans on BSN but how many fans did it drive away?  It's easy to know how many you got, almost impossible to know how many you lost since genuine losses don't bother posting on the forums they just go elsewhere.

 

 

A valid point but I would argue that including optional Romance in PE won't stop anyone actually buying PE but they may spend less time on the Obsidian forums due to the nature of the debate. I can live with that as it shouldn't impact the revenue stream as people would still purchase PE. To be honest I would be a little surprised and disappointed if people did start boycotting the Obsidian forums due to an increased level of discussions around Romance as surly there would be dozens of other debates outside of Romance that people could start or partake in?

 

 

I would like to remind you that sales or profitability are not a primary concern for this game, as it was said here. They should not have the impact on design you say.

 

Also, I consider the bolded part to be a serious negative factor. You can live with that, but I enjoy debating and reading thoughtful discussions, and most game discussions I've seen on the BSN recently really aren't what I'm looking for. Besides, if I were a developer who checks the forums for fan feedback, I would like the forum debates to be as diverse and as thoughtful as possible, and not as emotionally driven and as singleminded as they are on the BSN.

 

For instance, I would like to remind you that the loyal groups of romancers got the Mass Effect 3 character and romance discussion forum shut down because they could not mantain civil discussion. I don't want discussion forums shut down here. I would also like to point out that the lead writer of Dragon Age has called the BSN a toxic environment, and pretty useless for feedback. I would like these forums to be better than that.

 

Additionally, what makes you think that the BSN would come here if Obsidian did doomed or otherwise nontraditional romances, as it has been discussed? The Thane fans threw a big tantrum because their obviously doomed romance could not be saved. The only way they would come is if Obsidian made romances in the style of Bioware romances, and those have received plenty of criticism here already, for various reasons.

 

The scenario you describe is as unpalatable to me as a game without romances would be to you. We'll have to disagree on this point.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Lurky

[Darji]

In my opinion nothing is stronger of a bond than love so i really hope there is something like it in it. But that said I want a more mature take on all this. Not like giving them gifts to get their bar higher or just to have sex. I want no childish Bioware romance. What I want is a real romance and love situation you can or can not encounter or follow. 

 

And I believe with the writing talent that Obsidian has they cold really do it the right way. 

Edited July 24, 2013 by Darji

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm going to agree with FlintlockJazz that the appeal of romances in BG2 as the increased amount of content compared to other characters. PST also had content rich characters those characters were well received by most despite not being romances(yes I know your PC could flirt with some characters and have sex with prostitutes, but I don't count that as romance).

 

IMO, the goal for games like PE should be to have companions that have different content based on what kind of relationship they have with the PC, but I see no reason that romance has to be arbitrarily slapped on because some people find it to be incredibly deep(or immersive or whatever). That isn't to say say that romances should be arbitrarily excluded because some people don't like them though. Romances should be included if...

1) the devs want to do it

2) it fits the setting and the characters involved

3) content for other characters and other relationships is not ignored

4) it is well written

5) it doesn't exist as pure fanservice that turns the NPC into a sex doll

 

Seems like you are thinking it is simple as that, based on your post. Could argue for a lot of junk that way, though, heh.

If PE has a sea battle with a Kraken, sales will go through the roof.

Edited July 24, 2013 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

 

If PE has a sea battle with a Kraken, sales will go through the roof.

 

 

Maybe, can you provide some links or websites that show this is a popular component for RPG fans?

[Lurky]

 

 

If PE has a sea battle with a Kraken, sales will go through the roof.

 

 

Maybe, can you provide some links or websites that show this is a popular component for RPG fans?

 

 

I can show you that the Reaper vs Thresher Maw fight was a very popular part of Mass Effect 3 if you want.

 

Therefore, PE should have giant flying machines of destruction fighting against giant worms, because people dig that.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Lurky

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If PE has a Monkey with a revolver riding on a lamb, it will sell 10 million copies.

 

 

You can't stop the storm!

Edited July 24, 2013 by KaineParker

[Cultist]

[Gfted1]

If PE has a Monkey with a revolver riding on a lamb, it will sell 10 million copies.

Only if the monkey and lamb can romance each other. It shall be known as Forbidden Wool.

[Darji]

 

 

 

If PE has a sea battle with a Kraken, sales will go through the roof.

 

 

Maybe, can you provide some links or websites that show this is a popular component for RPG fans?

 

 

I can show you that the Reaper vs Thresher Maw fight was a very popular part of Mass Effect 3 if you want.

 

Therefore, PE should have giant flying machines of destruction fighting against giant worms, because people dig that.

 

 We actually want a good game so we better not include anything of the newer Bioware games. 

Edited July 24, 2013 by Darji

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

 

So now a new argument is that the game needs romances as it'll enhance profitability ?

 

Nope its not new, I've been making this point for ages. But its not as simple as that, I would rather say you will increase the fan base as Romances are popular and Romance do draw certain loyal groups of people who love discussing and supporting them. And by increasing the fan base you would assume that these people would buy PE and that will generate more revenue.

 

 

Keep in mind this isn't necessarily a good thing; Mass Effect, for example had a massive romance fanbase and things got so rabid that they ended up having to close their romance forums. Bioware also made a DLC that essentially pandered to said audience. 

 

You do attract more people, sure, but many of these people are the same kinds of people who obsess over fanfiction and care more about romancing than the actual core mechanics of the game.  

[Darji]

 

 

So now a new argument is that the game needs romances as it'll enhance profitability ?

 

Nope its not new, I've been making this point for ages. But its not as simple as that, I would rather say you will increase the fan base as Romances are popular and Romance do draw certain loyal groups of people who love discussing and supporting them. And by increasing the fan base you would assume that these people would buy PE and that will generate more revenue.

 

 

Keep in mind this isn't necessarily a good thing; Mass Effect, for example had a massive romance fanbase and things got so rabid that they ended up having to close their romance forums. Bioware also made a DLC that essentially pandered to said audience. 

 

You do attract more people, sure, but many of these people are the same kinds of people who obsess over fanfiction and care more about romancing than the actual core mechanics of the game.  

 

 

Again do it the right way. Do not integrate meaningless romance for the sake of romance integrate romance for the sake of good writing and storytelling. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

So now a new argument is that the game needs romances as it'll enhance profitability ?

 

Nope its not new, I've been making this point for ages. But its not as simple as that, I would rather say you will increase the fan base as Romances are popular and Romance do draw certain loyal groups of people who love discussing and supporting them. And by increasing the fan base you would assume that these people would buy PE and that will generate more revenue.

 

 

Keep in mind this isn't necessarily a good thing; Mass Effect, for example had a massive romance fanbase and things got so rabid that they ended up having to close their romance forums. Bioware also made a DLC that essentially pandered to said audience. 

 

You do attract more people, sure, but many of these people are the same kinds of people who obsess over fanfiction and care more about romancing than the actual core mechanics of the game.  

 

 

I hear you, but I still think that the majority of people who want Romance are reasonable and rationale and just enjoy the deeper interaction with party members that Romance provides. So I feel the good outweighs the bad but obviously I would never want the discussion around Romance to get so heated a whole forum gets closed

 

@ The rest of you making jokes about my comments around Romance increasing revenue.

 

Some really hilarious comments, especially the monkey riding the sheep  

 

But jokes aside I stand by what I say for the reasons I gave

[BruceVC]

 

 

You are master of theatrics and also very funny

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

 

You are master of theatrics and also very funny

 

 

I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk

[Ieo]

I lost the post I was going to quote about "why can't we have both?" (romances and good game mechanics)---but I'd argue that's not a proper counterbalancing pair. It should be romances and nonromance character content, some excellent nonromance content being like Dak'kon or Morte. 

 

We now have Avellone's character development update, and I think it's time I re-post some of my earliest posts about game romances, which I wrote back in October 2012 (and followup). Specifically, it's pretty obvious that Obsidian doesn't have a team of writers for PE the way Bioware does (and can have different writers do different romances and other game content), and this development is thus linear because Avellone is doing it all himself; I really do not want "romance" to overpower other content in the same character:

 

 

 

If we want a deep and meaningful romance track for character A, that could take up the majority of the character writing cycle, or 3 months.
If we also want a deep and meaningful non-romance track for character A, that would take the usual cycle, 3 months.
So in total, for a romance-optional character covering both types of content equally, 6 months--before the writer can move onto character B.

Unless Obsidian hires a bunch more writers, I don't see how that kind of content creation can be done in their short development timetable. But I don't want them to hire more writers; I really don't trust them as I would Avellone (I know nothing about Ziets since I hated NWN1 and didn't bother with NWN2 due to its famous bugs). I dunno...

So the other option is purely linear--
If we want a deeper romance for A, maybe we'll do 1 month non-romance "friend" content and then 2 months for romance content.
If we want a more light "romance" with B, maybe we'll start out with the flirting for a month and then a sex scene and then 2 months of normal banter.
If we want a late-blooming romance for C, maybe we'll do 2 months of "friend" content and then 1 month romance content.

I hope you see where I'm going with this. Basically, in this kind of linear content dev, there would be uneven representation that would be more obvious since we only have 8 companions.

 

 

It's already well-known that it takes at least 2-3 months for Chris to write a character at his speediest, so the obvious answer to "why can't we have both" is TIME. It's either spend more money to hire more writers, whose output will be of questionable quality/style compared to Avellone by himself and would require additional editing time anyway, or add more time to the development timeline. Because otherwise with the way PE Is development at this point, requiring "deep" romances ("done right") in the game would, IMO, require at least 1-2 characters out of 8 to be completely devoted to only that content type, and that never seems to go well because either a chunk of people are always left out from the RP aspect or the 1-2 romance characters become so "universal" that they're meaningless.

 

Moreover, saying the addition of romances is great for economic reasons is a weak argument. Basically, that "reason" is merely a cover for personal preference. The FPS games that don't have romances do just fine in the economic department; can you really say "add romances to FPS games because it'll obviously increase your bottom line!" with a straight face? Or would you say people played the Infinity Engine games primarily for their romances? It's about the target audience that Obsidian wants to attract and how that affects game development on their timetable: Creating content here and adding a mechanic system there can and will take resources from other places or even impinge development proper. 

 

As always, my preference: Leave game romance to the modders. Now, if Avellone did end up leaving traces here and there with no resolution, fine. But I'd much rather have a bunch of Dak'kon -like content because that's rare already in both games and mass media. BruceVC: You missed all the previous thread discussions pointing out that "romance" is actually not a deeper and intrinsically better type of character content compared to other deep and complex relationships, be it family or the bromance/womance that's fallen out of favor in Western mass media since homophobia became much more salient. 

[Darji]

If you want to have a real mature story over a longer time frame then lets say 1-2 months there is no way romance should not be included in it.  Love plays a huge factor in our life and to have a more mature and and compelling story and experience you need romance. 

 

But again do it just right, Don't do it so you can reach the final  conversation and scene in 30 minutes but do it tied to a story if you go that path. Don't do it because for the sake of romance but for the sake of the story.  Don't make it possible that you can romance everyone but rather make it someone special doesn't matter if men or women. Do not make a hunting and grind game out of it.   Have one special story for ONE companion only!!!

 

In this regard western developer should actually look at JRPGs. Yes the romances there are very cliched and more teen like but they actually know how to integrate love into a story of a game. 

[BruceVC]

I lost the post I was going to quote about "why can't we have both?" (romances and good game mechanics)---but I'd argue that's not a proper counterbalancing pair. It should be romances and nonromance character content, some excellent nonromance content being like Dak'kon or Morte. 

 

We now have Avellone's character development update, and I think it's time I re-post some of my earliest posts about game romances, which I wrote back in October 2012 (and followup). Specifically, it's pretty obvious that Obsidian doesn't have a team of writers for PE the way Bioware does (and can have different writers do different romances and other game content), and this development is thus linear because Avellone is doing it all himself; I really do not want "romance" to overpower other content in the same character:

 

 

 

If we want a deep and meaningful romance track for character A, that could take up the majority of the character writing cycle, or 3 months.

If we also want a deep and meaningful non-romance track for character A, that would take the usual cycle, 3 months.

So in total, for a romance-optional character covering both types of content equally, 6 months--before the writer can move onto character B.

 

Unless Obsidian hires a bunch more writers, I don't see how that kind of content creation can be done in their short development timetable. But I don't want them to hire more writers; I really don't trust them as I would Avellone (I know nothing about Ziets since I hated NWN1 and didn't bother with NWN2 due to its famous bugs). I dunno...

 

So the other option is purely linear--

If we want a deeper romance for A, maybe we'll do 1 month non-romance "friend" content and then 2 months for romance content.

If we want a more light "romance" with B, maybe we'll start out with the flirting for a month and then a sex scene and then 2 months of normal banter.

If we want a late-blooming romance for C, maybe we'll do 2 months of "friend" content and then 1 month romance content.

 

I hope you see where I'm going with this. Basically, in this kind of linear content dev, there would be uneven representation that would be more obvious since we only have 8 companions.

 

 

It's already well-known that it takes at least 2-3 months for Chris to write a character at his speediest, so the obvious answer to "why can't we have both" is TIME. It's either spend more money to hire more writers, whose output will be of questionable quality/style compared to Avellone by himself and would require additional editing time anyway, or add more time to the development timeline. Because otherwise with the way PE Is development at this point, requiring "deep" romances ("done right") in the game would, IMO, require at least 1-2 characters out of 8 to be completely devoted to only that content type, and that never seems to go well because either a chunk of people are always left out from the RP aspect or the 1-2 romance characters become so "universal" that they're meaningless.

 

Moreover, saying the addition of romances is great for economic reasons is a weak argument. Basically, that "reason" is merely a cover for personal preference. The FPS games that don't have romances do just fine in the economic department; can you really say "add romances to FPS games because it'll obviously increase your bottom line!" with a straight face? Or would you say people played the Infinity Engine games primarily for their romances? It's about the target audience that Obsidian wants to attract and how that affects game development on their timetable: Creating content here and adding a mechanic system there can and will take resources from other places or even impinge development proper. 

 

As always, my preference: Leave game romance to the modders. Now, if Avellone did end up leaving traces here and there with no resolution, fine. But I'd much rather have a bunch of Dak'kon -like content because that's rare already in both games and mass media. BruceVC: You missed all the previous thread discussions pointing out that "romance" is actually not a deeper and intrinsically better type of character content compared to other deep and complex relationships, be it family or the bromance/womance that's fallen out of favor in Western mass media since homophobia became much more salient. 

 

You clearly are a reasonable and intelligent person and I appreciate your input. A couple of comments from my side

 

You are correct that most FPS don't offer Romance, but we aren't talking about FPS. We are discussing an RPG and people enjoy RPG for a number of reasons that include the narrative, the choices you can make and the party that joins you on your quest. In fact the members of the party that can join are a huge part of an RPG experience IMO. For me the members of my party must not just be unemotional robots that I can't empathize with or interact with, I want to understand what motivates them and there history. I'm sure you can agree with most of what I'm saying up to now

 

Now for me and many others they also want the option to Romance certain members of the party as I firmly believe that a physical relationship does make you closer to person. So even though having optional  Romance options won't be more than a few lines of dialogue and maybe a small quest here or there it definitely adds to the deeper connection I feel I have with a party member. The result of this is that I consider there opinion during the game in the context of the overall quest and I ensure they are generally in my party and well equipped . Of course they need to add value in combat but that's normally not a issue. So Romance for me does enhance my RPG experience and  provide immersion  as I often reflect on my game and choices I have made and that includes who I can Romance. If I could only talk to the person without the Romance arc something would be missing for me from the overall RPG experience.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

You are master of theatrics and also very funny

 

 

I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk

 

 

I've enjoyed your posts up to now but please refrain from blatant homophobia as I'll end up not liking you at all.