Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[Zoraptor]

With respect, Zor. Your previous post rather implied Manning's release had been vetted before release. It's why I went back and double checked.

 

Well, it had- up to the point the papers stopped cooperating, and as much as Snowden's stuff has been. It went to WL first, but as I said, that assured anonymity, something Snowden was not worried about. Handing it to WL is no more a public release than handing it to a politician is, it only becomes public when, er, it becomes public whether it's a politician reading it in parliament (or someone in their office leaking like a sieve) or someone putting it in their paper.

 

Going back to Snowden, it seems to be the case that he went public because - and I am paraphrasing a quote - Congress was being lied to. I feel this reinforces my point entirely. Why not speak directly to those Congressmen who were being lied to? They'd have eaten up the scandal AND run with the ball.

...

 

That is quite the most charmingly naive thing I've seen in a long long time. It's good to see that some people still trust politicians.

 

But those would be the same senators and congressmen who are slavering about treason and espionage*, running to the top of the pole beating their chests and shouting about how the release damages national security and the like? Going to a congressman would be a good way to cut out the middleman, but not in the successful release sense. He might as well just have gone the whole hog and bought a one way ticket to the Gitmo part of Cuba.

 

After all "congressman catches dangerous subversive spy" is marvellous PR and does not run the risk of you being labelled a traitor yourself. Sheesh, Manning confided in a hacker (in this case code for "foetid gob of yak sputum") and got dobbed in by him.

 

The political system simply does not work for this sort of thing, there are too many vested interests and running counter on anything substantive is too risky- and the government is doing its best to make sure that reporters are controlled in that respect as well what with the bugging of AP/ Faux News reporters and the like to catch other 'traitor'.

 

*ie giving aid and information to the enemy. That that enemy apparently is the US public shows roughly how much hope there was for a successful political release

[BruceVC]

 

With respect, Zor. Your previous post rather implied Manning's release had been vetted before release. It's why I went back and double checked.

 

Well, it had- up to the point the papers stopped cooperating, and as much as Snowden's stuff has been. It went to WL first, but as I said, that assured anonymity, something Snowden was not worried about. Handing it to WL is no more a public release than handing it to a politician is, it only becomes public when, er, it becomes public whether it's a politician reading it in parliament (or someone in their office leaking like a sieve) or someone putting it in their paper.

 

Going back to Snowden, it seems to be the case that he went public because - and I am paraphrasing a quote - Congress was being lied to. I feel this reinforces my point entirely. Why not speak directly to those Congressmen who were being lied to? They'd have eaten up the scandal AND run with the ball.

...

 

That is quite the most charmingly naive thing I've seen in a long long time. It's good to see that some people still trust politicians.

 

But those would be the same senators and congressmen who are slavering about treason and espionage*, running to the top of the pole beating their chests and shouting about how the release damages national security and the like? Going to a congressman would be a good way to cut out the middleman, but not in the successful release sense. He might as well just have gone the whole hog and bought a one way ticket to the Gitmo part of Cuba.

 

After all "congressman catches dangerous subversive spy" is marvellous PR and does not run the risk of you being labelled a traitor yourself. Sheesh, Manning confided in a hacker (in this case code for "foetid gob of yak sputum") and got dobbed in by him.

 

 

 

 

Mmmmm, maybe. You may be right. A congressmen may have just turned him in and basked in the media glory but I doubt it.

 

On further reflection I think the more likely outcome is that no Congressman would have gone to the media or made this information public. It would have been a death sentence for there career and jail time. The reality is that Prism has helped prevent terrorist attacks and is a useful tool to gain pertinent information about suspected terrorists. Why would any Congressmen want to be become a traitor by exposing this?

[Walsingham]

Apologies for bullet points, but it's early.

 

- Giving it to WL is not the same as Congress. Congress is an elected body.

- WL in particular has a well established anti-US agenda. There are alternatives out there with the same utilities.

- Zor's point about Congressmen is interesting, but false.

  > I say again, if they were on-side with the NSA why mislead them in the first place?

  > I currently think he's a ****er, but if he'd come to me (as a Congressman) I'd have been supportive.

 

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. You can't just act willy nilly. It's like running around whipping people's diseased organs out without formal consent.

[Orogun01]

Wals, congress would be a better place if they had congressmen like you.

I cut Manning some slack because firstly, I doubt anyone is so narcissistic that they would face either a self imposed exile or 10 years in prison just to get 15 minutes of fame. Secondly, because putting myself in his shoes I realize that being in possession of that information is a high tension situation where the rational leads more towards self preservation than the best course of action, aka: he panicked.
Plus Congress is a highly inefficient body whose track record makes me believe that they are more corrupt than the president itself. I don't see why anyone would trust them.

[BruceVC]

Apologies for bullet points, but it's early.

 

- Giving it to WL is not the same as Congress. Congress is an elected body.

- WL in particular has a well established anti-US agenda. There are alternatives out there with the same utilities.

- Zor's point about Congressmen is interesting, but false.

  > I say again, if they were on-side with the NSA why mislead them in the first place?

  > I currently think he's a ****er, but if he'd come to me (as a Congressman) I'd have been supportive.

 

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. You can't just act willy nilly. It's like running around whipping people's diseased organs out without formal consent.

 

I hear you but for me there is no right way about revealing national secrets like the Prism program, there is only wrong. I don't think anyone who works for important institutions like NSA should ever make public what they know unless it is clearly and highly illegal and unethical, something like a covert program of genocide. Especially since we now know that Prism helped prevent Terrorist attacks and now Prisms effectiveness has been compromised?

Edited June 26, 2013 by BruceVC

[Zoraptor]

- Zor's point about Congressmen is interesting, but false.

 

Well, it isn't a certainty, but equally it isn't false. Maybe it could have been handled through 'proper' channels, but I really doubt it. All the elected officials are running around defending everything as being perfectly legal and having impeccable legal oversight and all sorts of stuff like that, not lining up to get upset at how the NSA has run roughshod over rights and limitations; and giving the moral equivalent of the "we had to destroy our freedoms to save our freedoms!" speech.

 

On the other hand seeing John Kerry squirm when he said that only terrorists were monitored then the interviewer asking whether all the researchers in China targeted were therefore terrorists was outright hilarious.

[Chilloutman]

I am suprised how many people here are on goverment side in this. Well we all have right to have their own opinions - for now.

 

What bothers me is - Why its so big problem that he goes public with it if its legal to do so (PRISM is legal)? Maybe problem is that government is lying to own people? or that goverment is doing something what noone have right to vote for? How many politicans would go into elections and tell people that their program is to spy on them? None

[Amentep]

I am suprised how many people here are on goverment side in this. Well we all have right to have their own opinions - for now.

 

What bothers me is - Why its so big problem that he goes public with it if its legal to do so (PRISM is legal)? Maybe problem is that government is lying to own people? or that goverment is doing something what noone have right to vote for? How many politicans would go into elections and tell people that their program is to spy on them? None

 

The problem - in theory - with going public with what they're doing / how they're doing it is that you're giving information on how to foil what they do to the terrorist organizations who now know better how to avoid detection.

[Nepenthe]

Top contender for the conspiracy theory of the year: http://www.globalresearch.ca/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be/5339161

Edited June 26, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Orogun01]

The plot thickens; also why did you edit such a short post? Unless you are not Nepenthe but an NSA operative trying to do damage control, give us back our Nephie!

[Malcador]

Top contender for the conspiracy theory of the year: http://www.globalresearch.ca/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be/5339161

Well, at least it doesn't mention Jewish bankers, so there's some points in its favour.

[Nepenthe]

The plot thickens; also why did you edit such a short post? Unless you are not Nepenthe but an NSA operative trying to do damage control, give us back our Nephie!

That's just proof that I'm the real me, almost all my posts are edited, since I can't psell.

[Meshugger]

While Snowden plays cat & mouse with federal government, there's another guy in jail for 105 years for spilling too much beans.

 

http://www.thenation.com/article/174851/strange-case-barrett-brown%23axzz2X9RMrDLN

 

 

While the media and much of the world have been understandably outraged by the revelation of the NSA’s spying programs, Barrett Brown’s work was pointing to a much deeper problem. It isn’t the sort of problem that can be fixed by trying to tweak a few laws or by removing a few prosecutors. The problem is not with bad laws or bad prosecutors. What the case of Barrett Brown has exposed is that we confronting a different problem altogether. It is a systemic problem. It is the failure of the rule of law.

 

The guy who wrote it dead in a car crash recently.

[Walsingham]

 

- Zor's point about Congressmen is interesting, but false.

 

Well, it isn't a certainty, but equally it isn't false. Maybe it could have been handled through 'proper' channels, but I really doubt it. All the elected officials are running around defending everything as being perfectly legal and having impeccable legal oversight and all sorts of stuff like that, not lining up to get upset at how the NSA has run roughshod over rights and limitations; and giving the moral equivalent of the "we had to destroy our freedoms to save our freedoms!" speech.

 

On the other hand seeing John Kerry squirm when he said that only terrorists were monitored then the interviewer asking whether all the researchers in China targeted were therefore terrorists was outright hilarious.

 

 

We're fencing a little here, but I could counter by suggesting that if he hadn't raised the point illegally then it would have been a hell of a lot easier for Congress men to run with the ball.

[Meshugger]

[Walsingham]

NYT article on the impact to Ecuador if they try to face down the US.

 

A very interesting piece on economic power in a crisis.

 

After reading the article I think it would be disproportionate to damage the thousands of livelihoods at stake by removing favoured trading status. After all, what _operational_ damage has been caused by the leak?

 

I'm not saying I approve of the leak. But proportionality is an equally important part of good statesmanship. In the circumstances NOT imposing effective sanctions might send just the right signals that the US isn't an ogre.

[Malcador]

Ecuador seems cool with it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/ecuador-us-trade-pact-edward-snowden

 

And a nice jab at the US, because machismo or something.

 

 

Also holy **** is reading the comment section on the Guardian painful.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Malcador

[Orogun01]

 

The plot thickens; also why did you edit such a short post? Unless you are not Nepenthe but an NSA operative trying to do damage control, give us back our Nephie!

That's just proof that I'm the real me, almost all my posts are edited, since I can't psell.

 

Nonsense, you recently changed your avatar to a German Shepherd and your article mentioned West Germany. Coincidence?! I think not! 

[Gfted1]

Time is on my side, yes it is.

 

Unless they plan on housing them for life, they will eventually get picked up.

[Nepenthe]

 

 

The plot thickens; also why did you edit such a short post? Unless you are not Nepenthe but an NSA operative trying to do damage control, give us back our Nephie!

 

That's just proof that I'm the real me, almost all my posts are edited, since I can't psell.

Nonsense, you recently changed your avatar to a German Shepherd and your article mentioned West Germany. Coincidence?! I think not!

Actually, the dog's a malinois. Supposedly a very particular one called Cairo. Edited June 27, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Walsingham]

 

Actually, the dog's a malinois. Supposedly a very particular one called Cairo.

 

 

Proof that the NSA provoked the Arab Spring!

[Orogun01]

That one made me laugh

[BruceVC]

Ecuador seems cool with it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/ecuador-us-trade-pact-edward-snowden

 

And a nice jab at the US, because machismo or something.

 

 

Also holy **** is reading the comment section on the Guardian painful.

 

You can't expect a corrupt government like Ecuador to do the right thing and  refuse Snowden refugee status but you never know?

[BruceVC]

http://nedhardy.com/2013/06/26/a-love-letter-to-the-nsa-agent-who-is-monitoring-my-online-activity/

 

Okay this is brilliant, really funny

[Walsingham]

Well, ref my above point about Ecuador, it looks like Quinto (the president) left the trade agreement on his own on Tuesday. Thereby pre-empting US action.

 

I feel sorry for the poor ****ing Ecuadorians. Yet another Latin American leader decides he wants to go full Che, so he can grab a few statues at the expense of people having a normal life.