Hugo Chavez dead

[Wrath of Dagon]

And one can hardly accuse him of creating an authoritarian dictatorship or something along those lines as crime is rampant in Venezuela, one interviewee on a BBC World Service report on the subject of his death mentioned that he (the interviewee) had to move his elderly father (an ardent Chavismo supporter,) to Colombia where it's safer than Caracas, Venezuela.

So you're saying that crime and corruption in Venezuela are actually to his credit? I think it's more an argument he's so incompetent that having an authoritarian dictatorship didn't even deliver one of its usual benefits, but to be fair you really need to move on to the totalitarian dictatorship to get a handle on crime.

[Valsuelm]

 

And one can hardly accuse him of creating an authoritarian dictatorship or something along those lines as crime is rampant in Venezuela, one interviewee on a BBC World Service report on the subject of his death mentioned that he (the interviewee) had to move his elderly father (an ardent Chavismo supporter,) to Colombia where it's safer than Caracas, Venezuela.

So you're saying that crime and corruption in Venezuela are actually to his credit? I think it's more an argument he's so incompetent that having an authoritarian dictatorship didn't even deliver one of its usual benefits, but to be fair you really need to move on to the totalitarian dictatorship to get a handle on crime.

 

Whether you like Chavez or not, he was anything but incompetent. He was one of the only leaders of a nation on the planet that wasn't incompetent and had the best interests of his nation in mind.

 

Though you somehow have it in your head that he was an authoritarian dictator.... Stop yum yum yumming up the propaganda fed you about leader X being evil to justify your nation's imperialism and do a little homework. He was not, and you'll find that some others aren't either. I'd say the current and last President of the U.S. is closer to that role than Chavez was.

[BruceVC]

God, I hope people won't start making excuses for Castro when he dies. Saying that he wasn't that bad, or comparing him to some benevolent dictator, that would rub me the wrong way. Seems this thread has forgotten that the man was a dictator.

 

 

Yeah i WOULD compare Castro to Stalin & Hitler. And I bet it would rub you the wrong way. You have a unique persepective on him and Cuba in general as far as this board goes,

 

 

What unique perspective are you guys talking about?

[Rostere]

There's a lot of things which are very important to keep in mind regarding Chavez.

 

One, the coup which would have replaced his democratic rule by a right-wing dictatorship. This has already been discussed in this thread.

 

Two, remember this? Obviously, he was no dictator or even like a dictator.

 

Three, he actually tried, but failed, to depose the democratically elected government and arguably legitimate president Andrés Pérez in 1992.

 

Among other stuff he's also offered Muammar Khadaffi asylum.

 

To sum things up, I think he's been a fairly good president for advancing Venezuela socially, but let's not forget that he was also behind some very awful foreign policy. Instead of using his close ties to put pressure on Cuba, which is quite obviously not a legitimate democracy, he gave Cuba his unconditional support, rather like the US treats Israel today. He's also fostered close ties with other known non-democratic countries such as Zimbabwe, North Korea and Iran, historically also with pre-revolution Libya (something various EU countries did as well, so...) and Uganda under Idi Amin.

 

Considering the harmful influence the US has had on Latin America during the 20th century, it's clear to see where his anti- Americanism came from. I consider it a condemning stain on Chavez' record that he offered his support to blatant dictatorships, just because these shared his antagonism towards the US. And who knows, if his first coup had succeeded, maybe he would actually have become a dictator.

 

For now, let's hope his successor keeps Venezuela democratic and discards Chavez' harmful foreign policy.

[Zoraptor]

So you're saying that crime and corruption in Venezuela are actually to his credit? I think it's more an argument he's so incompetent that having an authoritarian dictatorship didn't even deliver one of its usual benefits, but to be fair you really need to move on to the totalitarian dictatorship to get a handle on crime.

It wasn't an authoritarian dictatorship in anything other than a purely rhetorical hate on principle manner. He was probably less authoritarian than, say, Uribe was in Colombia- and they both abided by decisions of referenda that they lost. Rather different than, say, Honduras where elections were held at the barrel of the military's guns and with anti coup media suppressed completely yet somehow contrived to be a 'fair' election in the eyes of the US, no doubt coincidentally the Right party won.

 

But ya see, that part of ta bible just ain't true. Now, we Superchristian Conservatives take other parts of what we believe is God's word as literal fact, but there was a manual left for us so we know what parts to ignore. It was given to Thomas Jefferson when God came down and wrote the US Constitution.

That sort of thing started pretty early. A lot of Saul's stuff was sticking asterisks on the end of things Jesus said and it's only carried on from there. "Love thy neighbour*"

 

*unless they're gay

[TrashMan]

Meh...the "West" and it's chest-thumping idea that it and it's ideals are the greatest things in the history of forever.. so delluded.

 

The west is like the rest of the world. Full of s****. Only the s*** if of differnet color and it's your so it doesn't smell as bad to you. But it's still S***.

 

 

Chavez burning in hell?

Can't really say, but if he does, he will be accompanied by the governments of the "free, democratic world"

Edited March 7, 2013 by TrashMan

[BruceVC]

Meh...the "West" and it's chest-thumping idea that it and it's ideals are the greatest things in the history of forever.. so delluded.

 

The west is like the rest of the world. Full of s****. Only the s*** if of differnet color and it's your so it doesn't smell as bad to you. But it's still S***.

 

 

Chavez burning in hell?

Can't really say, but if he does, he will be accompanied by the governments of the "free, democratic world"

 

To be honest I never understand this judgment of Western countries from people living in Western countries

 

I am going to assume you live in a Western country. Don't you believe in Democracy and things like a free press and free speech, do you believe that your government can be criticized on TV and the government doesn't have the right to enrich itself on tax payers money? Because end of the day those are some of the things that make a "Western country" as opposed to other places like China, Russia and various countries in Africa.

So what exactly is wrong with Western culture and ideology in your opinion?

[Meshugger]

Some people cannot grasp that western culture is superior to any other one, eventhough we try to sugercoat democratic principles as the "least lousy ones of all that have been tried".

[Guard Dog]

 

God, I hope people won't start making excuses for Castro when he dies. Saying that he wasn't that bad, or comparing him to some benevolent dictator, that would rub me the wrong way. Seems this thread has forgotten that the man was a dictator.

 

 

>Yeah i WOULD compare Castro to Stalin & Hitler. And I bet it would rub you the wrong way. You have a unique persepective on him and Cuba in general as far as this board goes,

 

 

What unique perspective are you guys talking about?

 

Orogun's family is from Cuba IIRC

[TrashMan]

To be honest I never understand this judgment of Western countries from people living in Western countries

 

I am going to assume you live in a Western country. Don't you believe in Democracy and things like a free press and free speech, do you believe that your government can be criticized on TV and the government doesn't have the right to enrich itself on tax payers money? Because end of the day those are some of the things that make a "Western country" as opposed to other places like China, Russia and various countries in Africa.

So what exactly is wrong with Western culture and ideology in your opinion?

 

 

Meh.. I lived in both systems.

The westen culture is "better" only if you value it's pro's more then the pros of any other, and if you consider it's negatives less that that of others.

 

But thing is that prefferences change.

So better? Objectively?

No.

Worse?

No.

Different?

Yes.

[obyknven]

So what exactly is wrong with Western culture and ideology in your opinion?

Supermacism & Racism. WASPs> Jews> Other West Europeans (French, Spanish etc) > Germans > Blacks > Asians > East European untermenches > Native American's.

Hypocrisy. When Nazi Germans kill Jews - this is Bad. When Nazi Jews kill Arabs - this is good.

& Oppression. Black slavery is bad, but non racist slavery is good. Immigrate from Third world into Europe and do want job? Ok, go work as prostitute. Do not want? GTFO Untermench, we trafficked you not for your better life. Or meiby do you want better education for your children? GTFO again, your children go into special shool for Third world untermenches. Etc.

Instead of fight against Racism, Supermacism, Opression and Slavery your culture create "sacred cows" (Jews, Blacks, LGBT etc) and create system of taboo (antisemitism, antiblack racism, Homophobie). When taboo stop to work, new taboo created (pedophilee for example). Actually your goverment don't worried about Jews or Blacks, or LGBT. It's just tool for control society, divide & rule and hate growning. On other side this is good imitation of work your government. Instead of do something real to better life of people, they protect rights (or suppress) LGBT (because this intime spere can't be regulated by government these laws change nothing).

Summary: Western culture have huge amounts of ****, and even can't recognise this (Western cultural supermacism and Eurocentrism again).

[JFSOCC]

God, I hope people won't start making excuses for Castro when he dies. Saying that he wasn't that bad, or comparing him to some benevolent dictator, that would rub me the wrong way. Seems this thread has forgotten that the man was a dictator.

I'm just saying I didn't know him at all, and I don't know what to believe. Awful dictators can still leave mixed legacies. There was an awful dictator in the Dominican republic, who cared a lot for nature. The Dominican side of Hispaniola is still green, while the Haitian side is completely deforested.

[JFSOCC]

 

 

So what exactly is wrong with Western culture and ideology in your opinion?

Supermacism & Racism. WASPs> Jews> Other West Europeans (French, Spanish etc) > Germans > Blacks > Asians > East European untermenches > Native American's.

 

 

Not where I live.

Hypocrisy. When Nazi Germans kill Jews - this is Bad. When Nazi Jews kill Arabs - this is good.

Many do see the injustices done to the Palestinians. That story isn't finished yet.

& Oppression. Black slavery is bad, but non racist slavery is good.

What are you referring to specifically? Slavery is illegal most everywhere in the western world.

Immigrate from Third world into Europe and do want job? Ok, go work as prostitute. Do not want? GTFO Untermench, we trafficked you not for your better life. Or meiby do you want better education for your children? GTFO again, your children go into special shool for Third world untermenches. Etc.

You realise those doing the trafficking are crime syndicates, especially RUSSIAN crime syndicates. Schools here are not segregated, but it is true that there are schools which have a large portion of poor immigrants in relation to the number of non-immigrant children. This is a demographic problem.

Instead of fight against Racism, Supermacism, Opression and Slavery your culture create "sacred cows" (Jews, Blacks, LGBT etc) and create system of taboo (antisemitism, antiblack racism, Homophobie). When taboo stop to work, new taboo created (pedophilee for example). Actually your goverment don't worried about Jews or Blacks, or LGBT. It's just tool for control society, divide & rule and hate growning.

This is so disconnected from reality I don't know where to begin. You are wrong.

On other side this is good imitation of work your government. Instead of do something real to better life of people, they protect rights (or suppress) LGBT (because this intime spere can't be regulated by government these laws change nothing).

I'm happy to find that there are equal rights for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual persons here in the Netherlands. I think it's abhorrent the way Russian society treats them as pariahs, bullies them, beats them up, throws them in prison, all for being who they are, as if they have some sort of moral high ground. It's vile what happens to LGBT people in Russia. I hope you are not part of that.

Summary: Western culture have huge amounts of ****, and even can't recognise this (Western cultural supermacism and Eurocentrism again).

All cultures have their problems and inflated egos. The nations where patriotism and nationalism are whipped into a giant fervour are the worst off. These nations are blind to their own flaws and to even discuss them is taboo and can earn you trouble. The United States is such a place, but Russia is just such a place.

[Walsingham]

I love how some of you chaps are perfectly happy to accept his legacy.

 

Hence the original article.

 

I feel sorry for any nation which has been so poorly lead it has to idolise a complete economic illiterate, and raging egomaniac who has effectively squandered billions of their natural resources just to strike a pose. Venezuela doesn't have to align with the US, but given they are a huge consumer of oil and gas, and they're effectively next door, agreeing a nationally beneficial supply relationship is pure nuts and bolts common sense. Doing otherwise strikes me as political posing.

[Malcador]

 

 

God, I hope people won't start making excuses for Castro when he dies. Saying that he wasn't that bad, or comparing him to some benevolent dictator, that would rub me the wrong way. Seems this thread has forgotten that the man was a dictator.

I'm just saying I didn't know him at all, and I don't know what to believe. Awful dictators can still leave mixed legacies. There was an awful dictator in the Dominican republic, who cared a lot for nature. The Dominican side of Hispaniola is still green, while the Haitian side is completely deforested.

 

 

Well obviously none of them are caricatures of evil, but that example isn't much of a mix - oppressing people's not offset much at all by loving trees.

[JFSOCC]

And I'm not saying it is. I'm confessing my ignorance.

[Zoraptor]

Venezuela doesn't have to align with the US, but given they are a huge consumer of oil and gas, and they're effectively next door, agreeing a nationally beneficial supply relationship is pure nuts and bolts common sense. Doing otherwise strikes me as political posing.

Uh, Venezuela is one of the US's largest oil suppliers.

[TrashMan]

I love all this talk about moral high grounds.

 

Because enforcing your morals and values with all the subtelty of a 100 ton whale is perfectly fine...as long as it's you enforcing your values.

 

Seriously, what's with all the moral crusaders and white kngihts?

[Malcador]

Seriously, what's with all the moral crusaders and white kngihts?

Internet ?

[Walsingham]

 

Venezuela doesn't have to align with the US, but given they are a huge consumer of oil and gas, and they're effectively next door, agreeing a nationally beneficial supply relationship is pure nuts and bolts common sense. Doing otherwise strikes me as political posing.

Uh, Venezuela is one of the US's largest oil suppliers.

 

I could have been clearer. My understanding is that in spite of being a key source, oil exports fell dramatically due to Chavez' management.

 

~~

 

As for moral crusaders and white knights... I am firmly of the opinion that recognising one isn't clean does not preclude wanting rid of the dirt.

[Agiel]

I suppose an early death may have been a blessing in disguise for the former Chavez and other neo-Bolivarian leaders in Latin America. I suspect had the deficit spending continued to grow unabated, Hugo Chavez would later face the prospect of having to make cuts in the very programs he pushed through and would be remembered for the austerity protests that had also plagued Greece and Spain rather than a martyr of socialism.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Agiel

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

Venezuela doesn't have to align with the US, but given they are a huge consumer of oil and gas, and they're effectively next door, agreeing a nationally beneficial supply relationship is pure nuts and bolts common sense. Doing otherwise strikes me as political posing.

Uh, Venezuela is one of the US's largest oil suppliers.

 

 

I could have been clearer. My understanding is that in spite of being a key source, oil exports fell dramatically due to Chavez' management.

 

~~

Oil exports fell because Chavez managed the oil enterprise about as well as he managed the rest of the economy, in other words he made a total mess of it, while still managing to buy off his constituents with proceeds from the oil exports. Had nothing to do with his anti-Americanism though, he was perfectly happy to take US dollars.