Digging

[Osvir]

An adventurers best friend! ~ Maybe not, but still making this thread out of curiosity.

Not the "?" in the "shovel" tag.

Like always, this thread is simply material and my own "philosophical" thoughts on "Could this work in P:E?". Could it work in the IE games?

Do we dig for treasures? Would you require shovels? Is this taking it too far?

Gold, Treasure, a pitfall which takes you to a dungeon (You dig through some roof and fall down).

On Mortality Mode: Dig a Grave for your fallen companion, although that might take it a bit far.

Easy to implement? Yes. It's a button in some form of UI or HUD~and it has a [LOG] function "You dig" + % of finding something (not abusable).

Great for finding riddles, clues, heck maybe even be able to disarm or dismantle a trap.

Prone! Digging might allow you to crawl under some sort of wall.

Thoughts?

[Calmar]

Sounds interesting, but might be hard to implement. Special manipulate-able wall sections and areas would be too artificial, digging everywhere and tearing down every wall might ruin an adventuring area, on the other hand.

[HansKrSG]

Digging could work like the few places in some of the IE games, where you use an "ability" at specific places where they have programmed that should change image/show another frame of the "animation" or the like, where it looks like you have digged a hole, and then you can get the hidden item. Making it possible to use successfully anywhere though would be... harder.

[Osvir]

I can think of 2 different methods that work very well:

King's Bounty
* Indications of where you can dig, a light ray
* 3D Environment
* I realize I don't know more.... but this doesn't have any "animations" except the light ray which indicates where you can dig

HoMM3
* Isometric, painted 2D
* When you dig, it takes a full day (Not interesting for P:E, but just noting in this list)
* A very simply hole with a pile of dirt appears. It's the same one every time (might be different depending on terrain). Point is, it looks really simple.

This idea isn't to necessarily cause any visual changes. But digging under the wall wouldn't be possible at every location next to the wall, but would be explained by some psuedo-logic a la Secret of Monkey Island~"Ah! You can only dig here because the dirt is soft here, everywhere else it is too hard and requires too much effort, cha-cha" or something. There wouldn't even perhaps have to be any "visual" changes to the dirt either, but your party simply gets teleported to the other side of the wall.

Which brings me to thoughts on "Climbing". There doesn't need to be any animations for this stuff! If there's a location that you could use a rope at (Like Fallout) it could simply be "Teleport" to the next level.

^Regarding that, will you be able to teleport over walls or through walls with a powerful enough Wizard? Or is that "Fast Travel" related?

Edited January 18, 2013 by Osvir

[Cryticus]

I feel I need to ask my favorite question, why ? I mean yeah we can implement something like that but assuming that it will be like in Kings bounty what with some sign of where you can dig, then why should we implement button that will allow us to dig, simple make custom look for chest that looks like it's ground and voila , easier and ulitmatly same result.

[Sacred_Path]

I have an unreasonable fondness for usable shovels/ pickaxes/ sledge hammers etc. in games. I say 'unreasonable' because gameplay very rarely profits from this. But it's such a neat gimmick

[Osvir]

@Sacred_Path: Truth! But from a more adventurous viewpoint: Quest requiring digging for treasure? One of the islands are rumored to have pirate gold and you venture out to the island and find it? How important is "Digging" for the adventurer, and how often is it used in a D&D experience as well as in what situations?

[Jobby]

or graveyards, treasure troves just waiting to be uncovered!

[TRX850]

I have an unreasonable fondness for usable shovels/ pickaxes/ sledge hammers etc. in games. I say 'unreasonable' because gameplay very rarely profits from this. But it's such a neat gimmick

Because there's something very special about that "Spear and Jackson No. 45 Round Mouth with D Handle +1" the first time you use it.

[Osvir]

@Graveyards: Divine Divinity hath shovel

[TRX850]

I like the idea of quests that involve mining ore or other smelt-able metals. Either for a local manufacturer or for your own stronghold.

 

Pickaxes and shovels all round, sir.

 

And graveyard quests. Definitely graveyard quests.

[maggotheart]

I wouldn't advocate being able to dig for treasure anywhere, but there are some scenarios that could allow for 'digging', but just make it a part of the quest or plotline. For example, there could be treasure maps, and when you get to the X marked spot, your party 'digs' and finds the treasure. For a plot based one, have someone hiding something that you need, so you have to force him to show you where the item is buried. You follow him to the location and dig it up. (There was a quest in Fallout 2 where a guy had some caps hidden in one of the graves, you get him to take you there and you can even make him dig the hole himself).

[Nonek]

Make it an entrenching tool so it's more easy to handle and i'm all in favour, for me all equipment should have a valuable use, and this sounds like just such a tool. I found digging in both the Ultima's, Krondor and the Fallouts to be a nice little addition to the gameworld, especially if we recieve various perks because of it and quests are born of the idea.

 

There's two types of people in this world, those with loaded guns and those who dig.

 

Throws down shovel.

 

You dig.

[Heresiarch]

The as a nice digging mechanic in Konung games. If you used your showel if the right place, i.e. under gravestones or in various places, indicated by NPCs and lore, your loot just appeared on the ground. If you did it in the wrong place, nothing happened. It was pretty good, except for two issues.

 

First, player may not be smart enough to figure out that devs have planted a treasure chest in this suspicious mushroom circle, specially if half a dozen same ones, he encountered earlier, turned to be undiggable. Sometimes there was no indication that any king of treasure is present whatsoever, but still it was there. This problem was solved to an extent by introducing a rare and costly consumable, a magical mirror that revealed all hidden treasure in the location. It was exploitable to some extent, since you could save, reveal the treasure, memorize the positions on the map, load, and dig it all up, keeping your mirror for another time.

 

There was also the challenge of finding this revealed treasure, on the other hand, since it involved running around the whole location looking for loot bags on the ground. They were highlighted a bit, but still pretty hard to look for. Which makes me think that it's not the best way to implement such an item.

 

Lastly, treasure places were static. Meaning that on your second playthrough you could go all, "Oh, don't bother me with your rather lengthy quest, soothsayer. I already know that the piece of the legendary bogatyr sword I'm looking for lies buried under the shadow of that huge tree stump. Better luck with ignorant heroes next time, Old Horse!" But I suppose there is no way you can totally eliminate all possibilities of replay meta-gaming in an RPG.

[Osvir]

Just realized that King's Bounty is rather bad in my opinion. Same thing with Kingdom's of Amalur, "indicators" where there is treasure. And so much loot :/

I think loot could matter more significantly than being "Hey get your gold here!". And not necessarily something that's the extreme opposite, "only gold at X location". Something in the middle.

As for a quest: a riddle could be inscribed on a sword hilt as it gets identified:
"Go to the Hollow Willow Tree"

*goes*

"Nothing here..."

*looks around, realizes the area itself is symbolism for direction; tree is pointing East*

*goes east*

*finds new clue towards ~elsewhere*

*finds cave, needs torch to read inscription on wall, "Location" clues*

*Finds X, digs, finds comic- or epic treasure*

[Juneau]

The first question would be, why? What would we gain as an improvement to the game. Can I revisit cleared areas to dig? Can I run around spamming my dig button till the animation kicks in and I start digging? What do I get from digging - Loot i'm gonna sell as scrap in order to super feed my Stronghold?

 

It's one of those things - It worked in WoW because you spent time between raids/battlegrounds/waiting for food at 80 going around and trying to dig for potentially something super awesome you'll use for the rest of your time playing the game.

 

Would it be a useful benefit for a lot of time invested in it. I'm guessing, besides the mechanic someone would have to write the back story for each bit of loot, provide decent clues to point us to the right area and then make it so the above issues I mentioned can't defeat the point (spamming buttons and finding it without the clues).

 

And then how do they make the loot useful / last?

Edited January 18, 2013 by Juneau

[Osvir]

I feel the whole point of the treasure hunt is a man's wild dreams... probably heard in some movie xD but the point is kind of... I see a plot in the farmer giving up farming just to chase wild dreams with a shovel.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63088-weapons-that-enemies-react-to/?p=1296384


Credit to AGX-17.

[Doppelschwert]

Just for the sake of making the pun:

I'm not digging this.

 

Just makes me feel like missing something because I can't be bothered running around searching for stuff that most of the time isn't there anyway. And if it was more common to find something, you'd be stupid not to dig every inch of ground, which makes it busywork. Is that fun? Hardly.

 

...

 

Now that I think about it, its busy work either way. So no, thanks.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Doppelschwert

[Osvir]

True, but since I've started this thread about digging I've made a system for where it could fit in an isometric view, but mostly in the story of a world and it's economy (won't go into it all the detail). Inspired by P:E, if you will. I don't think many would dig into the following paragraphs either, just sharing thoughts

For digging to be important, economy would generally have to be slim. Realistic is probably a good word. Treasure hunting could be a valid choice of profession, in ways of growing in career and/or character path. Be the adventurous treasure hunter Indiana Jones. Or you could simply go the Thief path, pickpocketing your way forward through the shadows, as a profession. One might manipulate himself forward, getting better prices. And one might work on the street as a singer.

Generally that. NPC's choosing to go out treasure hunting implies that farming isn't profitable, youngsters going out on foolish adventures and, you are one of them. If making a "Business" is going to be in P:E, things get ever more interesting.

Copper - The commoner's coin.

Minor Resources, Herbs, Low to Mid Maintenance, bribing. Pickpocketing, slaves for business.
Silver - The merchants coin.

Better resources. Upgrade Gear. Invest in Stronghold.

Gold - The noble's coin.

Buy business. Invest in Business/Stronghold.

It could be spread among some factions, a limited global amount of gold (figure is examples~examples, as big as Spain?):


Progressively finding gold. With a limited amount of gold in the world, and perhaps even chapter per chapter being a different amount of "global" pool that can be depleted and you can't upgrade fully but rather partially (Dishonored springs to mind, there's only some some gold on each level, and it is enough to upgrade some or certain aspects of your character).

Anyways, ^that's one way to make "digging" important in the world. Note: Won't be in P:E.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Osvir

[AGX-17]

I feel the whole point of the treasure hunt is a man's wild dreams... probably heard in some movie xD but the point is kind of... I see a plot in the farmer giving up farming just to chase wild dreams with a shovel.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63088-weapons-that-enemies-react-to/?p=1296384

 

Credit to AGX-17.

 

 

A. That's not my image.

 

B. That's NOT A SHOVEL

 

C. What is philosophical about any of this? What is this for? Why not Hammering Nails? Why not Joining Wood? Why not Plowing Fields? Fencing Pastures? None of this is quest related, as you said. You can just choose "plow," you know, wherever. Or "Join Wood." When you level up, will you choose to learn the Miter Joint or the Dovetail Joint? The possibilities are exhilarating.

 

The entire point of buried treasure adventures is that you have to follow clues to discover the location, not literally dig up an entire country through a process of trial-and-error in the hopes that you'll find treasure.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AGX-17

[Umberlin]

 

 . . .

[JFSOCC]

GOLD!

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Hidden_treasure_worth_billions_of_dollars_discovered_in_Indian_temple

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/gold-nugget-worth-200k-found-1539306

 

And since that immediately fills me with gold-fever. I'm going to say yes to treasure hunts. Digging or no digging.

[Osvir]

The entire point of buried treasure adventures is that you have to follow clues to discover the location, not literally dig up an entire country through a process of trial-and-error in the hopes that you'll find treasure.

 

I totally agree with this, and that is what I'm advocating. Not digging up an entire country, but quest based digs. To make it most interesting, though, money would have to be slim (Treasure Hunting being a legit profession).

 

Credit to you because you posted the picture, sourced it as well. Farmer deciding to go on treasure hunting because he doesn't earn enough cash by "Plowing".

[.Leif.]

I can dig the shovel being in the game so long as it's not any more complex than the shovel in Fallout.

[Brother Pain]

My thoughts on digging:

 

Digging up a few buried treasures with clues etc. and possibly the option of digging up graveyards complete with possibly bad rep (in other words, the shovel in Fallout 2) would be fine.

Digging randomly, or whenever you get a hint or something similar (eg. like Fable) would be sucky.

And if the models for shovels/spades are being put into the game, why not use them as clubs/axes as well? I still have fond (and weird) memories of people using spades in PnP, notably in GURPS.