Torches!

[Osvir]

Edit time just ran out whilst I was adding this xD

 

Magic & the Economy for city lights. Of course that'd be normal light as well (lanterns). Guards walking around with torches at night. If there were 2-3 maintenance Wizards in a town, I want to advocate for Wizards with Lanterns again.

"There is this too:

" Edited December 3, 2012 by Osvir

[mcmanusaur]

Imma let you finish, but Minecraft had the best torch mechanics of all time! Of all time!

[mstark]

Imma let you finish, but Minecraft had the best torch mechanics of all time! Of all time!

Boom.

[jivex5k]

This isn't Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. This isn't Legend of Grimrock. We're talking about an RPG using an isometric camera view - do you really think that the best option to go with in dungeons is to show a barely visible screen to the player?

 

And what about combat, do you develop a mechanism for dropping the torch or do you fight without your shield? Does the torch set you on fire on critical misses? Do low level wizards need to use power for maintaining light spells instead of using more direct damage spells? ... Considering the fact that you only use torches or light spells a fraction of the playing time, it would seem that the workload needed for including torches isn't really worth the end result at all.

UO had torches and it was pretty damn cool. And UO is isometric.

They also have a spell to see in the dark....

Mid fight, when your spell runs out and all of a sudden you can't see anything, it made for some really tense moments.

[Voltaire]

I don't mind much one way or the other, but I always felt that torches and infravision were part of the PnP game that did not translate well to CRPGs.

[Dream]

If darkness is simply there to obscur your vision, there is little point. Same thing if you can hit pause to grab a cup of tea and a muffin at any given moment.

The point is atmosphere (if you walked into a dark cave, you're going to need a flashlight, right?)

 

Yea, and if I had just rested for 8 hours I'd need to take a piss, right? Atmosphere and all that.

[Osvir]

We've already discussed piss in another thread. It was short-lived. Go ahead and start advocating for it, you might break a record!

[LadyCrimson]

Yea, and if I had just rested for 8 hours I'd need to take a piss, right? Atmosphere and all that.

I've never advocated that level of "reality" for anything, the flashlight thing was just an easy example. But whatever. If Obsidian wanted to have a difficulty option for bathroom breaks as well as eating and drinking, they're free to do so.

 

In my previous post I made a point that I don't want it to actually be pitch black. I do, however, like there to be a difference from "daylight outside" to "deep underground cavern." That's the atmosphere part. If everything is going to be brightly lit, imo one may as well just adventure in outdoor spaces and have it be 12noon all the time rather than unexplored, mysterious, deep caverns ala the "endless dungeon." Like I said before - have it so you CAN play without needing to use torches or light spells if you want (like very bright moonlight, perhaps), but also where extra light sources make things brighter/more colorful in a further radius or whatever.

[Osvir]

Seeing torches and/or light in the fog of war from afar (and things around it) would be cool. If the enemy sees me if I have a torch I should be able to see them if they have a "torch" (in essence, light source). It could also give me a sense of direction and more importantly for the non-lethal or burglary approach, see where the guards are during night.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Osvir

[LadyCrimson]

Addition: I think the point some have made about not wanting to have to carry oodles of "torches" around with them is a valid one. That always becomes annoying, if the torches are timed-used and you have to keep switching them out. Since this is a fantasy game with magic, that's easily circumvented by having a basic light spell that all magic-casting characters could cast (not just a wizard).

 

I don't know if anyone has played the old aRPG Darkstone, but I liked how it dealt with dungeon lighting + magic light spell. Altho, in that game, it occasionally did get a little too dark in some corners (it was blocky 3d with dynamic lighting or some such). Most of the time tho, imo it was almost perfect. That's just me tho. (and I know P.E. wouldn't do things in that exact fashion, being non-3d...just an example of what I like)

[Dream]

Yea, and if I had just rested for 8 hours I'd need to take a piss, right? Atmosphere and all that.

I've never advocated that level of "reality" for anything, the flashlight thing was just an easy example. But whatever. If Obsidian wanted to have a difficulty option for bathroom breaks as well as eating and drinking, they're free to do so.

 

In my previous post I made a point that I don't want it to actually be pitch black. I do, however, like there to be a difference from "daylight outside" to "deep underground cavern." That's the atmosphere part. If everything is going to be brightly lit, imo one may as well just adventure in outdoor spaces and have it be 12noon all the time rather than unexplored, mysterious, deep caverns ala the "endless dungeon." Like I said before - have it so you CAN play without needing to use torches or light spells if you want (like very bright moonlight, perhaps), but also where extra light sources make things brighter/more colorful in a further radius or whatever.

 

Easy, Normal, Hard, Nightmare, "**** for Real."

 

As for your description of light; that sounds about right, my bad for misunderstanding you earlier. Variable levels of light and all that would be fun, but no Doom 3 (that ****ing flashlight).

Edited December 3, 2012 by Dream

[mstark]

I wouldn't mind having to rely on torches early game, but the game fairly quickly giving you access to trinkets/items/spells that provide more permanent light.

 

Keep in mind that this wouldn't be a dungeon crawler like Grimrock, you're not going to need torches all the time. It won't be so bad if torches are limited time, you'll only need them occasionally, you're not playing the entire game in a pitch black dungeon. Darkness has the potential to be a great addition to the game, requiring various ways for the player to deal with it, but it won't be the entirety of the game.

[Dragoonlordz]

A captured tinkerbell on a leash would resolve the issue.

 

All I am saying earlier is there are better ways to handle lighting than reliance on having to carry many resources of torches. Skills such as improved night vision for thieves and such classes, spells such as orb of light for magic based classes, summoning of a spirit that can light the way even interactive enviroment set objects like torches on the walls can be lit or turn out/off. There has to be ways of better handling the gameplay mechanic instead of carrying many peices of firewood or torches in your backpack and/or having one hand tied up holding such objects on a party member. A permenant hanging lantern on the belt would also be fine. As long as I do not have to keep buying oil to top it up and does not take up backpack space or keep having to be replaced. Disposable torches is not the right way to go and neither is any light source which have to carry multiple resources of it, or hold in the hand preventing that character or party member from having use of both hands.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Osvir]

A captured tinkerbell on a leash would resolve the issue.

 

 

I remember/recall reading this somewhere.. that there was going to be a "7th" party member (a soul entity following you around). Obsidian statement by the way, I just don't remember where. Around the time we were discussing about pack mules (2-3 weeks ago?). Obsidian needs to put me down regarding this, I don't want to be spreading them lies. I think it was about that time where an in-game pet was being discussed as well.

 

EDIT: Don't reply to this until I've checked some sources (or if you have a proper source or you recall it too). I'm re-reading/watching the updates.

 

Update #13

In the western reaches of the Dyrwood lies the Endless Paths, an ancient network of cobbled trails that wind through arches of dense overgrowth, twisting within the confines of a high castle wall as they make their way to the gates of iron-shuttered towers that jut forth from the interior. In ages past, the towers rising from the gardens to pierce the canopy of the forest once marked the dominion of the castle's relentless, crazed builder: Od Nua. But the courses of Od Nua's madness run far below the surface, stretching forever deeper into wandering catacombs and bone-cramped oubliettes unseen by living eyes for centuries. The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.

 

Most else that is said and written of the place is fiction or conjecture, more likely to have sprouted from the svef-enhanced imaginations of bored and boasting mercenaries than from any seed of truth. Hosts of lost souls that relentlessly stalk the living, cathedral-sized tombs overflowing with the restless victims of a horrific plague, lightless chambers sealing in the remnants of Od Nua's failed experiments. Most legends converge on a common theme: that under the castle rest myriad forgotten vaults of death and darkness glittering with Od Nua's enchanted creations and the abandoned treasure of ill-fated interlopers. So great is the fear of the castle's denizens that even drunken and drug-cheered adventurers do not joke of setting foot on the paths, lest their souls join the eternal ranks of those that have gone before them.

 

Not what I'm looking for but just a tidbit of something that could work well with lanterns- I know that I've posted that several times, I just think it makes it easier to read when there's a link or two in post. Definitely "stands out" doesn't it?

 

Still looking for the right information regarding this... here's something from the wikia that resonate with the above quote:

Story

The player witnesses an extraordinary and horrific supernatural event that thrusts them into a unique and difficult circumstance. Burdened with the consequences of this event, the player has to investigate what has happened in order to free themselves from the restless forces that follow and haunt them wherever they go.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

A captured tinkerbell on a leash would resolve the issue.

 

 

I remember/recall reading this somewhere.. that there was going to be a "7th" party member (a soul entity following you around). Obsidian statement by the way, I just don't remember where. Around the time we were discussing about pack mules (2-3 weeks ago?). Obsidian needs to put me down regarding this, I don't want to be spreading them lies. I think it was about that time where an in-game pet was being discussed as well.

 

EDIT: Don't reply to this until I've checked some sources (or if you have a proper source or you recall it too). I'm re-reading/watching the updates.

 

Update #13

In the western reaches of the Dyrwood lies the Endless Paths, an ancient network of cobbled trails that wind through arches of dense overgrowth, twisting within the confines of a high castle wall as they make their way to the gates of iron-shuttered towers that jut forth from the interior. In ages past, the towers rising from the gardens to pierce the canopy of the forest once marked the dominion of the castle's relentless, crazed builder: Od Nua. But the courses of Od Nua's madness run far below the surface, stretching forever deeper into wandering catacombs and bone-cramped oubliettes unseen by living eyes for centuries. The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.

 

Most else that is said and written of the place is fiction or conjecture, more likely to have sprouted from the svef-enhanced imaginations of bored and boasting mercenaries than from any seed of truth. Hosts of lost souls that relentlessly stalk the living, cathedral-sized tombs overflowing with the restless victims of a horrific plague, lightless chambers sealing in the remnants of Od Nua's failed experiments. Most legends converge on a common theme: that under the castle rest myriad forgotten vaults of death and darkness glittering with Od Nua's enchanted creations and the abandoned treasure of ill-fated interlopers. So great is the fear of the castle's denizens that even drunken and drug-cheered adventurers do not joke of setting foot on the paths, lest their souls join the eternal ranks of those that have gone before them.

 

Not what I'm looking for but just a tidbit of something that could work well with lanterns- I know that I've posted that several times, I just think it makes it easier to read when there's a link or two in post. Definitely "stands out" doesn't it?

 

Still looking for the right information regarding this... here's something from the wikia that resonate with the above quote:

Story

The player witnesses an extraordinary and horrific supernatural event that thrusts them into a unique and difficult circumstance. Burdened with the consequences of this event, the player has to investigate what has happened in order to free themselves from the restless forces that follow and haunt them wherever they go.

 

Replying to myself; extending post past edit. I feel that a Fog of War entity/God resonates with this too, a Darkness God. If the Fog of War is an enemy by itself, there could be some pretty cool instances. The villagers running from their village because they are being hunted by the restless Shadows, being engulfed by it. Or we are out exploring the world when suddenly we come across a broken down villager who has been running for weeks.

 

With the isometric view this could be really cool. Specially if you could see torches far away in the fog of war (encased by darkness and a vision ring around it). You wouldn't see every light spot on the map in a dungeon, but if you came up to a fork you could perhaps see if there is an enemy down the hallway holding a torch or simply a wall torch. You'd not just physically explore the map (with your party) but you would actually be exploring the map (through the map interface/scrolling the map) which I think enhances the "Adventurer" aspects.

 

Someone could approach you from the darkness, and you can't see their face or where they are at, entirely. "Psst psst over here!" and you follow someone through the darkness. Bringing up a torch in this way could see someone just running away towards at the edge of the Fog of War.

 

An idea I've had for a First Person game is a monster that lurks after you, follows you around (looking like a Mantis), invisible, haunting you. Kind of like an "Alien" (Alien movies), but it doesn't strike, it just haunts you, as if teasing you. An evil poltergeist~ dripping it's goo on you from above, and when you look up it attacks. Or you notice it, attack it and it disappears into the shadows just to remain "gone" or believed to be gone. Though slowly and progressively you start to hear its hissing and wheezing again as it approaches closer. Atmosphere.

 

Something I would like to see as well, something World War Z seems to play with, is an overwhelming horde of monsters that come after you like a flood. Climbing on top of each other, just rushing relentlessly forward towards you and if you stand in their way you're going to get overwhelmed and engulfed so you better RUN. This could work very well in the isometric view.

 

Like Hormalakh said about Firkraag (who I have yet to approach/meet), could there be dangers in the Fog of War that actually puts you on your toes? At first you see a emerald light shining alluringly in the darkness and you approach it in hopes of treasure, only to see something that makes you hightail it the other way. Likewise this would give you, the player, the experience of it and the next time you see something similar you are going to be way more careful and less naive.

 

In Bleach -bare with me- there is one monster (a Hollow) that tricks the main character with the image of his mother. He is called Grand Fischer (yes, with a C). The tentacle on his head is a sort of "bait" which can be an illusion that he puts forward, a human being or whatever. Something that the main character is baited by and follows it, only to fall into a trap. I think this monster is based off of this fish:

 

With a monster like this in mind, perhaps you could see a light source down the hall in the fork and naively press "Walk over here" and fail to notice the pitfall between where you're at now and there, making dungeon crawling even more focused (you need to stay focused on where you're at right now and your bearing around you. Pressing a location senselessly on the other side of the map could get you in trouble on the way if you're not paying attention).

 

I really enjoyed this movie a lot, it portrayed a futuristic dark world, the world itself extremely dangerous with only safe-havens in well guarded cities:

Now, I wouldn't want P:E to be taken down that path to the same extent, but the sense morality of it "The world is a dark cruel place". Something that neither Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale touches, in my opinion, Planescape: Torment would probably touch it if it was a big world like Baldur's Gate. It only takes place in and around Sigil right? ~and from what I understand, some obscure abstract surreal realms~ (haven't finished it)

Edited December 4, 2012 by Osvir

[Felithvian]

It'd be easier to make something scary~horror if torches are included. Of course, Wizards should have abilities to light up (Gandalf style) as well as Flame Swords and the like.

 

Agree, but only if they they implement a feature that allows players to turn the darkness in the game to a more heavy/realistic setting, where lights only glow the surrounding area. This would make adventuring in caves and dungeons way more scarier. Something like True Night from Ultima Online.

 

Edited December 4, 2012 by Felithvian

[rjshae]

A captured tinkerbell on a leash would resolve the issue.

Interesting idea for a pet...

 

Maybe you can get a glowing collar as an accessory?

Edited December 4, 2012 by rjshae

[HangedMan]

Im all for it. Dungeons should be daaaaaark as hell ( It always made me wonder who is litting the torches in the corridor of a looooooong abandoned dungeon ). TORCHES ALL THE WAY

Speaking of this--and I ap0ologize if it's been brought up before, I saw this and instantly responded, rather than reading-- I should be able to bring some oil with me. Like, lamp oil. Kerosene. What-have-you. Those old wall sconces and braziers and the like? I should be able to start fires in them, in the dungeons. It would be an awesome way to leave a 'trail of breadcrumbs', so to speak (so long as the lights don't start going out; or being put out).

[Osvir]

Torches aren't just Torches but a limited amount of wood that you can carry with you for camping resting as well? Weighing tons. Either you've got 12 torches in your backpack (as you wouldn't be able to carry more on 1 character) or 1 camp for 3 torches. This way you'd be both conservative with using torches and, more importantly, abusing the "Camp" function.

 

Could "Camping" cost resources?

[Dream]

Torches aren't just Torches but a limited amount of wood that you can carry with you for camping resting as well? Weighing tons. Either you've got 12 torches in your backpack (as you wouldn't be able to carry more on 1 character) or 1 camp for 3 torches. This way you'd be both conservative with using torches and, more importantly, abusing the "Camp" function.

 

Could "Camping" cost resources?

 

Yea, that sounds real fun.

[jezz555]

Now, I wouldn't want P:E to be taken down that path to the same extent, but the sense morality of it "The world is a dark cruel place". Something that neither Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale touches, in my opinion, Planescape: Torment would probably touch it if it was a big world like Baldur's Gate. It only takes place in and around Sigil right? ~and from what I understand, some obscure abstract surreal realms~ (haven't finished it)

 

Now you and me are probably the only two people in the world who actually liked that movie, but I agree with what your saying. A similar feeling to the world would be kind of interesting, perhaps they could relegate it to a certain area though to keep things from being too post-apocalyptic, as I doubt that's what they are going for.

Edited December 5, 2012 by jezz555

[Osvir]

^People were expecting "Advent Children" and got "Hollywood". Of course they were disappointed. I've been amazed at the level of detail in that movie ever since (even today, this movie was made before its time and a revolution in 3D graphics at the time for the public). 11 years later and it still looks really good. I watched it as its own story, and not something that should fulfill my desires. Square did a good job

 

I'm not talking about post-apocalyptic setting, but that the world is dangerous. You don't want to walk in the alleyways at night (PST, that was epic), you don't go into the haunted forest in either Day/Night (well, we do, but people warn about it). Our character is the "catalyst" in the world, we interact with the world and we find the mysteries of the world whilst the rest of the world could see it as odd or dangerous.

 

I think that a good inspiration to look at (real world) is hitchhikers and real life adventurers. They are doing stuff we aren't doing because we think we aren't capable of it, lots of it we probably view as dangerous. Climbing Mount Everest? Yep, dangerous, an adventure. Hitchhiking? Feeling any fear and/or prejudice towards it? If you've seen "Into the Wild" I would like to say that it is pretty much like that: Magical. Traveling up mountains where there are Bears and Mountain Lions and camping out at night? Yep, that was pretty scary but still an interesting adventure. Bears and Mountain Lions are shy of people regardless and won't attack out of the blue.

 

In Planescape: Torment I feel that the world is threatening.

In Baldur's Gate I don't, except Sarevok is a threat for the world, but the world isn't very "threatening" by itself.

 

I wouldn't like "Spirits Within" style, where the world is completely "off-limits" and people are hurdling up in a Big City for shelter and protection (Though, in Mass Effect 3, I do enjoy the portion of everyone gathering up at the Citadel because of Reaper attack on various worlds). I guess what I'm trying to say is just "I'd like to see a threatening world, but others travel it too". Hardships and struggles in the actual act of traveling, and an abstract personal reward for it.

 

Thought: A God going chaotic might cause villagers to evacuate a village or whatnot, until you deal with it.

 

EDIT: I want to challenge the world of P:E, not just the enemy AI.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

No Health Potions, what about Torches for those minor cuts and bleeding? Can Torches also be used as a "closing wounds" type of thing? Not putting too much weight on how much you can use the "Torch" though, as it should really be a low level item before getting the ultimate "light" spell.

 

If Torches could be a Camping Resource cost, then all of the Light spells would have to be as well (which pretty much pours my "Torch = Camping Resource" idea down the drain in my own opinion). One of the things about Resting in Baldur's Gate was that there was no real threat about it. We've been discussing "Food" in another thread (and several threads) and following this paragraph:

 

Making Resting better: Costing resources, must have a light source and some food in your backpack, apart from the threat of being ambushed by monsters/bandits or whatnot. Maybe you could even loose some gold because some petty "guided-by-a-God" thief came and robbed you during the night (and your guard dozed off). These are some ways to mitigate Rest abusing. Making it less accessible, and "Should I keep these torches to close wounds, light up dungeons or for resting?" also plays a big tactical role (Decisions, decisions).

 

Like I said in another post, torches capping at "12" or something like that in an inventory for 1 character (or they'd weigh too much~can't carry more). They wouldn't heal Stamina, but specifically Health, though then it is excluding some designs for those who don't play Mortality Mode. So I don't know if that's good or bad.

 

I feel that the inventory, or what your character can carry, is going to be fairly limited. Reading on the Wizards descriptions (wikia) they speak about "anvil heavy tomes". Now, a Grimoire or a Tome doesn't weigh as much as an anvil (that's just vivid/creative writing). But it implies that the Wizard can't carry 2 Tomes because carrying 1 under your arm is heavy as it is, e.g., limited inventory space/capacity/weight.

 

The Torch idea I have, regarding a "limited" amount that you can carry on one member (or because they weigh too much stacked) would only work for all of its intended purposes if the inventory management is "realistic". Having 12 torches sticking out of your backpack is imo realistic, and you'd still have room for 2-3 books, some potions, herbs and similar. Of course, there's probably other solutions to it as well.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

I want to be able to shave with a torch. That would be manly.

[HansKrSG]

Actual darkness in dungeons without a lightsource? Yes please. A game where torches actually means something would be awesome.

 

Torches aren't just Torches but a limited amount of wood that you can carry with you for camping resting as well? Weighing tons. Either you've got 12 torches in your backpack (as you wouldn't be able to carry more on 1 character) or 1 camp for 3 torches. This way you'd be both conservative with using torches and, more importantly, abusing the "Camp" function.

 

Could "Camping" cost resources?

 

Yea, that sounds real fun.

 

I can't gauge if you are being sarcastic or not.

Edited December 6, 2012 by HansKrSG