Torches!

[jezz555]

I think lighting would actually add a cool survival horror-esque sort of element to the game. Very good idea if you ask me. Also yeah, gives mages a reason to cast light

[Osvir]

Interesting point PrimeJunta.

 

It wouldn't be pitch black. Even in Baldur's Gate at night your vision is less, and there's no torches in that. Same thing in popular games like Dota. We aren't talking about the screen being black (I think, at least?) but simply having less vision at night. Your ring around you on how far you can see.

 

Also, you will be able to mark your own map on the map screen to put out important characters. Possibly being able to edit your own journal. A torch would extend that vision, it wouldn't make your game less playable to not have a torch, you just won't benefit from how far your character can see.

 

How important is Vision going to be, from a tactical viewpoint? Could a torch heighten my chance to see someone "Hiding in Shadows"? Kind of like an Observer with a torch and completely invisible without. Perhaps vision could allow you to see an enemy before they ambush you? A group with a good vision could see the mob of enemies hiding being crates (Perception) whilst a party with lesser vision only sees the mockup guard. A Cipher could sense (through the fog of war, by some indicator~red-ring pulsating "Alert") even in a party with poor vision with a "Detect Evil" type spell.

 

Want to link some thoughts about having different types of scouts and exploring that I had from another thread. Scout Modes. Different classes having different scout modes. And I also wonder, in blunder, how important are torches going to be when there are several other methods?

 

I'd personally prefer if Torches were a "Low Level" item rather than something consistent, as Vision could grow with level. So after a while a Torch would be pretty much useless.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

It's more likely that torches will be "obsoleted" at higher levels as more convenient magic becomes available, methinks. But yeah, lots of mechanics you could play with once lighting is involved. I for one would enjoy that sort of thing.

[Dream]

As long as it isn't pitch black then whatever; probably just going to crank the gamma up anyway if it's obnoxious.

[jezz555]

As long as it isn't pitch black then whatever; probably just going to crank the gamma up anyway if it's obnoxious.

 

I remember back a couple years ago playing Condemned 2 and playing through the entire game scared ****less because there were constantly monsters and serial killers and stuff moving around in the shadows and my flash-light was a piece of crap. Until I realised I could just turn the brightness up to the point were I could see everything. it totally ruined the games scariness of course, but the game was a lot more playable. So I guess there's something to be said there.

[PrimeJunta]

As long as it isn't pitch black then whatever; probably just going to crank the gamma up anyway if it's obnoxious.

 

I'll be saving manically instead. Unless playing on Trial of Iron.

[Hormalakh]

You know what, this game is supposed to have field of vision right? Could you imagine how awesome it be if they could effectively utilize Fog of War to make a truly terrifying experience? Imagine you're in a dungeon and the torches only give you a limited field of vision (less than you'd find in the sun. Then you have things that show up in the shadows and you can barely make them out. Is that a chest or a pack of vampires? Perhaps you can only see the reflection from their eyes. Have any of you played the old XCOM? Try doing a mission at night. That WAS SCARY!

 

This was an isometric game that did justice to light. Look I want a good reason for not going out at night. Lack of vision is a good reason. In BG it didn't much matter if you went out at night or not: you could still see everything. In XCOM, I would be terrified of going out at night, because I never could be sure what would jump out at me at night. Throw in a few ranged enemies with amazing (or at least better than your party's) low-light vision and you've got yourself a horrific experience.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czVlgeOAJWg

 

Compare to day.

 

 

This was a great idea Osvir, can't believe nobody else talked about it. Obsidian READ THIS THREAD.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Osvir]

Let's take our torches down this thread.

 

What if in some areas the Fog of War actually is going all Cthulhu on you, maybe even attacking you. An infernal cave that spouts lava around you, and you have to escape NAOW. How nasty are some of the Gods going to be? Impossible encounters, where you have to run, a sense of urgency through an instance in a cave. A God which chambers you reach and he is neutral/"has a city" (City in the Heavens?) and you can talk to him (Think Tyrael in Diablo 2) imagine attacking him (as a roleplayer and not as a buffed out Windforce and the Grandfather, would you stand a chance? A plate falling in the dungeon if I stand on it and I'll loose a character to that, doesn't matter if it is mortality mode or not (otherwise some rare, once or twice one game resurrection). Of course we would have enough time to escape easier modes and more reaction thoughts and movements on difficult modes (space, I got so good with that space, that's all. Loving the shift+click movements in BGEE, but mostly the reaction of it. No stutter when changing direction, more fluid).

 

"Why are they called the Hallelujah Mountains?"

 

Also gamma, of course. Can gamma be directly linked to and with Fog of War? Or is that exactly what it is? (No knowledge) That would solve a lot of issues. EDIT: Could gamma be part of Difficulty scaling? The sense of urgency, the world is closing in on you, why? How?

 

I have no bloody idea.

 

What I'm talking about is that the Fog of War could constantly be coming after you, it could even be a part of the Event or really some Event. You find a device or an enemy that you need to "shut off". You're now in the mid-game and you've stopped the world from closing in on you and that in itself creates more resolutions for a greater purpose. Gamma controlled early game difficulty?

Edited December 1, 2012 by Osvir

[mstark]

The gamma mentioned earlier would refer to Gamma Correction: http://en.wikipedia....amma_correction

 

In short, neutral gamma should give you accurate colors and shadows, unfortunately not many screens have accurate color/contrast reproduction, and as such raising gamma above default will make the screen appear brighter and may reveal more details on a screen with bad contrast. On high-end screens, with accurate image reproduction, raising gamma in game will do nothing more than make it appear whiter, with no actual improved visibility.

Edited December 1, 2012 by mstark

[Pipyui]

It's not like the whole world would be pitch black, and even at night darkness shouldn't be complete. In forgotten caves and dungeons though a light source should be necessary to navigate (unless you have a rogue with nightvision or something. Speaking of, a lone torch in the night should make me stand out like nobody's business). I think implementing light sources like torches and such could really enhance the atmosphere of such places. You should probably feel isolated and alone in such places, and what better way to help facilitate this than by sticking your party in a lone circle of light surrounded by unknown dark? Darkness can be as much narrative as gameplay mechanic.

 

Speaking of gameplay mechanics, I'm ambivilent on the idea of granting torches auxilary bonuses. I wouldn't want it to act as a weapon or shield. If anything, it should just provide the party a buff representing improved vision in combat (enemies might get it too, but I would presume any found in an unlit cave would have an aversion to it and might even recieve a penalty). So you'd either have a wizard provide magic light, or hand a torch to a member of the party who wouldn't be hindered so much by the loss of one free hand.

 

And speaking of narrative and gameplay, maybe you could do cool stuff with the lighting for one quest. Like, a maze that could only be traversed when lit, and stepping outside of the light would kill your character. Or, a fortress long lost, not so dark as to make a torch necessary, but where your light flickers ghostly visages of the dead inhabitants and their furnishings present themselves, reliving the last day of their existance before the fortress fell. In the realm outside of your torch's light, you'd see decayed furniture and bones, and at your approach the past would come to life. Maybe you'd pick up bits of history from the visages, and could use this knowledge to reveal secrets in the present fortress or solve an ancient mystery or something.

 

Maybe those are both aweful ideas, but hopefully they help convey the potential I feel that light elements can play in PE.

[Osvir]

Torches could make enemies further down the tunnel or hallway notice you and creep up on you. Rogues could definitely have a nightvision ability. If "Hide in Shadows" was really "Hide in Shadows" it would be awesome. Perhaps even being able to draw on the soul of the shadows to camouflage himself for short distances/duration (making you able to go from shadow to shadow unseen/invisible).

Edited December 1, 2012 by Osvir

[Hormalakh]

Man I really love this idea. There is so much that can be done to enhance the atmosphere just with this. The whole unease that so many of you feel with darkness in a dungeon is the whole point. Imagine how freaking cool it would be! You stumble into a cave. You see the flickering of a light. You get a bit closer and the light has eyes. You get closer and you see a big huge ass dragon. Imagine Fiirkaag and how crazy it would be if you stumbled into his cave and suddenly you see this huge dragon as you get closer. That's epic.

[Osvir]

If the Fog of War is an "enemy" (Or a Nasty Darkness God playing tricks) early game, could the shadows themselves spawn some sort of enemy or damage during this period? This could be a resource to get better at "Hiding in Shadows" in more ways than just physical, magically as well. As if Siphoning the darkness semi-off topic I know that Cipher and Siphon are two different things, but with something similar (a Cipher capable of drawing the "Soul of the Shadow") this also makes the Cipher even more of an Assassin type (Leaving the Rogue for the Thief type).

 

How nasty are Dungeons going to be and what adversaries will we face other than the enemies? Traps? How visible should they be? And could their locations be slightly more pronounced with more light in hand? Maybe your Rogue gets +1 to Trap Finding because of a Torch.

 

You could always throw the Torch on the ground somewhere as well, and if it'd be a physical object that can get kicked around (when walking over it) you'd be in for some pretty hectic epic battles in the dark with only a torch on the ground lighting it up. Not recommended in swamps. You could throw a torch down a hallway just to get vision of all of those creepers from the other post and this way, as a Rogue or Cipher, you could now be "Hiding in Shadows" which would be a strategy for a scout as well. If the Rogue will have a Support/Utility role, could the Torch be a tool to shoot faster Fire Arrows? It gets easier if you have someone holding up the torch for you (Party based game).

 

Scenario:

I go down a hallway, solo, with my Rogue. He's holding a torch to see around him better, specially traps. I enter a fork, but I also notice something reacting in the shadows up north (think modern/classic X-Com, where vision is super important), I throw the torch in that direction and I catch a glimpse of the horde of Goblins advancing on my position. The Rogue will be hiding in shadows automatically and can quickly escape the first wave and I'll have time to prepare the fight, switch some spells around real quick, weapons, positioning(!).

 

Of course there could have been just 1 or 2 Goblins, but that torch should have alerted them to attack (as in rushing forward), dumb as they are they'd forget to call reinforcements. If there are patrols of enemies in dungeons they'd be alerted when finding the torch and the dungeon/fortress/cave might go high alert (or dumb goblins would hold on to it as a weapon before attacking). Perhaps give a quick "stutter" if it hits a moving target but no damage.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Osvir

[AGX-17]

There's nothing scary about an isometric overhead view and combat results determined by random number generators.

I'm going to assume you never played Diablo 1 as a kid. I'm also going to assume you never played Tibia in it's early days of extreme darkness. Even Diablo 2 used light radius to great effect, but was never as scary as Diablo 1 due to more exterior areas and less reliance on it for survival.

 

Actually, I did. Whenever my friends and I had LAN parties they usually wanted to just play Diablo-type games (Diablo, Diablo II, Dungeon Siege, etc.) I could humor them for about an hour tops but the whole thing was just mind-numbingly boring.

 

And when you said tibia, I thought "what does a human leg bone have to do with this" so I looked up "Tibia not the bone," and have this to say: I don't play muhmorpuhguhs, never have, and I cannot control my laughter at the idea of someone being afraid of one, no offense.

 

Not being able to see a long distance in Diablo is not scary, it's just irritating at worst because of the nature of the game and the perspective. I was a big player of Warcraft II and Starcraft in the heady days of my youth in the mid-to-late 90s (it's going to take a game like Silent Hill to scare me,) so it was no different from Fog of War to me. Your apparently very low threshold for terror doesn't automatically apply to everyone else. The most terrifying thing about Diablo is the fear of getting carpal tunnel syndrome from rapidly clicking M1 for 12 hours straight.

Edited December 2, 2012 by AGX-17

[Osvir]

What is that veil of light that seems to surround and light up the party in the 2nd picture? (Apart from Aloth obviously doing something)

 

Whatever it is, I like it. There is also an ominous dark tentacle beast in the darkness~Fog of War.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Osvir

[AGX-17]

What is that veil of light that seems to surround and light up the party in the 2nd picture?

 

Whatever it is, I like it. There is also an ominous dark tentacle beast in the darkness~Fog of War.

 

Well, it's obviously not a torch.

 

Aside from the elf mage's hand glowing rather obviously with magical power, It's highly likely just an artistic element meant to emphasize "these guys are who you should focus on." The orange end of the color wheel for the bad guys' blue (lazy work, Obsidian artist, btw.)

[Tamerlane]

I'm down for heavy torch (or light spell or glass bottle full of glowing worms or whatever) use at night/in dungeons. Always loved how terrible your vision range is in some of the dungeons in Diablo 2, and of course, those evil god damn night missions in Xcom.

 

The important bit for me, though, is that torches be super simple to swap in and out. The more I have to fumble around with my inventory, the less likely I am to bother with that stuff.

[rjshae]

The orange end of the color wheel for the bad guys' blue (lazy work, Obsidian artist, btw.)

Lazy work for hastily assembled concept art? The very nerve! They should have spent weeks and a big chunk of the budget getting the image just so.

 

You should be an art critical; you at least know what a color wheel is. LOL.

[Hormalakh]

...Not being able to see a long distance in Diablo is not scary, it's just irritating at worst because of the nature of the game and the perspective. I was a big player of Warcraft II and Starcraft in the heady days of my youth in the mid-to-late 90s (it's going to take a game like Silent Hill to scare me,) so it was no different from Fog of War to me. Your apparently very low threshold for terror doesn't automatically apply to everyone else...

 

It isn't the darkness that one is afraid of in games like X-Com, it's the feeling of not knowing what lies behind the shadows that could completely destroy your party. It's the trepidation that if you venture too deep into the darkness, you'll be faced with an enemy that would be too tough for your party to handle and that you would be too deep in to merely run away. If you know what you're facing much earlier than before you have to face it, preparing yourself and making tactical choices becomes easier and less immediate - your fear of loss of party members decreases.

 

This isn't just a matter of "mommy, I'm scared of the dark"

[jezz555]

...Not being able to see a long distance in Diablo is not scary, it's just irritating at worst because of the nature of the game and the perspective. I was a big player of Warcraft II and Starcraft in the heady days of my youth in the mid-to-late 90s (it's going to take a game like Silent Hill to scare me,) so it was no different from Fog of War to me. Your apparently very low threshold for terror doesn't automatically apply to everyone else...

 

It isn't the darkness that one is afraid of in games like X-Com, it's the feeling of not knowing what lies behind the shadows that could completely destroy your party. It's the trepidation that if you venture too deep into the darkness, you'll be faced with an enemy that would be too tough for your party to handle and that you would be too deep in to merely run away. If you know what you're facing much earlier than before you have to face it, preparing yourself and making tactical choices becomes easier and less immediate - your fear of loss of party members decreases.

 

This isn't just a matter of "mommy, I'm scared of the dark"

 

right, fear of the dark=fear of the unknown

Edited December 2, 2012 by jezz555

[Frenetic Pony]

I'd always been annoyed that the D&D low light vision stuff never worked in the IE games.

 

So... now they could! Better vision in the dark... A normal vision distance in the dark while others get reduced, or non low light vision gets a reduced chance to spot hidden stuff? Both?

 

Obviously a torch negates that for the distance of the light, and may be perfectly doable... in a variety of ways. And it could be rather interesting to boot. A dungeon where light attracts baddies you definitely don't want to attract? Another dungeon, a long one, where light keeps away enemies that would otherwise just kill you eventually, and your torches keep going out.

 

A lot of possibilities for such. Or they could just not be done at all.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Frenetic Pony

[AwesomeOcelot]

This **** sounds awful. The need for torches would imply the environments would be too dark to see in without them.

 

Can you imagine scrolling around the map to see if you missed anything when everything except a tiny circle around your character is pitch black?

 

That's the point it's a challenge. In a areas, used sparingly, it's something in the environment you have to take into account or use to your advantage. Plus you could be able to wall mount some torches, or light some already there. There could be creatures that prefer the darkness that come along and put them out.

[Brother Pain]

Having to bring torches could work well with the same game mode that forces you to keep track of food, sleeping arrangements and whatever else was announced.

It wouldn't be a good idea in the non-hardcore mode (going with the name for it in Fallout New Vegas).

[AwesomeOcelot]

Having to bring torches could work well with the same game mode that forces you to keep track of food, sleeping arrangements and whatever else was announced.

It wouldn't be a good idea in the non-hardcore mode (going with the name for it in Fallout New Vegas).

 

I'd hope they'd just make torches more available and last longer in the easier modes, perhaps have more of them in chests.

[ogrezilla]

Having to bring torches could work well with the same game mode that forces you to keep track of food, sleeping arrangements and whatever else was announced.

It wouldn't be a good idea in the non-hardcore mode (going with the name for it in Fallout New Vegas).

torches seem much different than those other things. they fundamentally change how you need to go about certain dungeons. They change the actual strategy and tactics of the combat and everything. The others are simply more micromanagement. I think a game would need to be designed to take advantage of dynamic lighting from the ground up for it to be a worthwhile addition to the game. That is to say, probably not this game. I love the idea though.

Edited December 2, 2012 by ogrezilla