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Don't make NPC's more awesome than my Player Character

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I'd like to add, that I really liked it in KOTOR 1-2 how you could turn your party members to the other side... I guess I'm the guy who wants to see that douchebag paladin fallen, blackguard ftw xD Would be great to see something similar in PE, altough I would not like every companion to be easily manipulated. I mean the paladin should douche about the usual righteousness and stop me from evil deeds, but after seeing his adopted thiefling son murdered by his own temple's bigotted idiots, I expect him to at least go on a killing spree. ( "Well, looks like I'm gonna have to go on a killing spree." hehe :D )

The only companion I can think of that you could do that to in Infinity Engine games was turning Viconia from Evil to Neutral in Baldur's Gate 2. I don't remember whether this was in the base game or the ToB expansion.

 

/scratches head

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If you want pretty good ego stroking game, play Persona 4. You're like one hell of an idol to the characters there.

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The only companion I can think of that you could do that to in Infinity Engine games was turning Viconia from Evil to Neutral in Baldur's Gate 2. I don't remember whether this was in the base game or the ToB expansion.

 

/scratches head

 

Sorry, did not know that, the only IE game a played till the end was Icewind Dale 1, got halfway trough with BG 2 a long time ago, but my HDD decided to move to a better place (if you can call a junkyard that xd), reinstall, blue death, reinstall, run into a bug on the very first map (maybe couse vista?)... it's like someone cursed me so I could never finish the game xD That's why I started playing BG1 enhanced edition,this time i want to actually play it till the end from the very beginning xD

I played Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 a lot though.

 

Sorry for offtopic.


"The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves: You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin (RIP!)

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The only companion I can think of that you could do that to in Infinity Engine games was turning Viconia from Evil to Neutral in Baldur's Gate 2. I don't remember whether this was in the base game or the ToB expansion.

 

/scratches head

 

Sorry, did not know that, the only IE game a played till the end was Icewind Dale 1, got halfway trough with BG 2 a long time ago, but my HDD decided to move to a better place (if you can call a junkyard that xd), reinstall, blue death, reinstall, run into a bug on the very first map (maybe couse vista?)... it's like someone cursed me so I could never finish the game xD That's why I started playing BG1 enhanced edition,this time i want to actually play it till the end from the very beginning xD

I played Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 a lot though.

 

Sorry for offtopic.

 

You could also turn Sarevok in ToB through a series of 4-5 conversations.


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I would just like to see some smart AI, where you can't kite, and your own allies will attack the closest enemy. Just doing a replay through Arcanum and found this to be quite annoying.

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I can honestly say that I have never run across this problem before. Must come from my habit of putting ALL the good gear on MY character and only stingily handing out what the NPC's need to survive.

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If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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I don't mind competent NPCs, but I would dislike an extreme power between PC and party-member NPCs.

 

I don't think this is too much of a problem if there are points instead of rolls though. IIRC, someone said that PE is more likely to use points instead if rolls to determine attributes, as well as no rolling for HP per level.


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I can honestly say that I have never run across this problem before. Must come from my habit of putting ALL the good gear on MY character and only stingily handing out what the NPC's need to survive.

I used to do this too. These days I try to be pretty "fair" when handing out gear, plus often gear is more suited to certain classes thus the choice is clear and easy. I try to keep my party as equal in power as possible, I feel they function better that way. With that said, if a piece of gear is equally beneficial to my PC and a companion, my PC is getting that gear.

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If you want pretty good ego stroking game, play Persona 4. You're like one hell of an idol to the characters there.

 

But that's another one of those "chosen one" type situations. Yu (now his canon name,) is the only character able to use persona powers "naturally,"as his chance encounter with Izanami necessarily places him in the center of events.

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The only companion I can think of that you could do that to in Infinity Engine games was turning Viconia from Evil to Neutral in Baldur's Gate 2. I don't remember whether this was in the base game or the ToB expansion.

 

/scratches head

 

Sorry, did not know that, the only IE game a played till the end was Icewind Dale 1, got halfway trough with BG 2 a long time ago, but my HDD decided to move to a better place (if you can call a junkyard that xd), reinstall, blue death, reinstall, run into a bug on the very first map (maybe couse vista?)... it's like someone cursed me so I could never finish the game xD That's why I started playing BG1 enhanced edition,this time i want to actually play it till the end from the very beginning xD

I played Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 a lot though.

 

Sorry for offtopic.

 

You could also turn Sarevok in ToB through a series of 4-5 conversations.

 

I must be really cursed xD Installed BG1 yesterday, had no problem with my computer, today I start it up, stucks at loading the windows xD had to restore it to an earlier point xD game still works though


"The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves: You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin (RIP!)

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Honestly I wan't party members cooler than me. I wan't them to be monster races and legendary warriors and stuff, that way theirs an excuse for me to use them instead of just making entirely my own party. One of the coolest things about Arcanum for me was the legendary party members you got at the end and I would love if PE did something similar

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I don't enjoy the idea of being overshadowed by my party members. That's mildly discouraging when they're another class, but when they're the same class it gives you the feeling of "why bother".

 

I do enjoy some ego flattery, after all.

I absolutely hate this suggestion.

 

There's nothing that irks me more then the game trying to make out that my PC is the greatest, most powerful, most handsome, most sexually competent (wo)man in the world. Others may play these games with a hyper idealized, self-insert PC for the sole purpose of gratifying their clearly fragile ego; I on the other hand like to craft a variety of characters with varying degrees of skills, weaknesses and human faults who ultimately are nothing more than reasonably 'normal' people in exceptional circumstances.

 

The moment the cast of characters starts trying to beat me off by saying how wonderfully amazing my big-eared little orlan is at everything is the moment I snap the disc.

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I can honestly say that I have never run across this problem before.

 

I can't think of any either, myself, at least that weren't supposed to be better for some reason (usualy because they were temporary/going to leave/going to die/going come back to kick your butt later).

 

Must come from my habit of putting ALL the good gear on MY character and only stingily handing out what the NPC's need to survive.

 

Reminds me of the thread asking for companions to insist on an equal share/just taking things and not wanting to give them to you, depending on their personalities.

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You will not harm her, you will not harm her ever again!"

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I tend to think that when the same rules apply to the PC and the companions (same stats range, same access to power/skills and gear), it's fair game. If you can build your companions' template using the same mechanics you're using for your PC then there's room for balancing the group to your likings. If your fighter companion is better than your fighter PC, then that means you built you companion better (intentionnally or not).

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While I don't particularly want my companions to overshadow me, I wouldn't want my PC to be way more powerful than my companions either. I don't want my PC to be a god while the others just tag along. Plus, I would very much like some NPCs to be more powerful, either in level, equipment, influence, wealth, etc., than my character, especially early on. I'd be completely fine with there being parts of the story where I must simply run away from enemies and escape overwhelming forces.

 

But why would they follow the player character, then, aside from "Oh you are the CHOSEN ONE! I must follow you in your quest to fulfill the prophecy!"?

 

Maybe they just like you? Maybe you smell nice? Maybe you pulled a thorn out of your paw? If all your social relationships are based on raw power dynamics, then you must have an interesting circle of friends.

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The only really irritating example of this I can think of was Aveline in Dragon Age 2. You can make a blood mage that can blood mage it up right alongside Merril or an archer that does just fine relative to Sebastian, but God help you if you try to tank as well as Aveline.

Edited by Tamerlane

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First of all, this isn't something Obsidian has any control over. If P:E is going to be anything like Baldur's Gate wherein your character is pretty much the "Unknown" with little backstory and personality, so then there is a question of how awesome you manage to make your character. By the way! I have yet to come up with a character concept that overshadows Jaheira or Minsc. Though Jaheira to me is awesome because she is a Fighter/Druid which I had never realized, making her (in my imagination) during combat a fierce warrior.

 

Minsc... nuff said.

 

I reiterate this and I might add, "don't make companions more awesome than characters from the Adventurer's Hall".

 

Again, like I first said, this is all dependent on how awesome you make them. Obsidian has no control over this.

 

DA2...shouldn't have even had a party system....

It was a freakin action RPG, nothing tactical about it whatsoever.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest...

 

Anyways, I hope the companions have their strengths and weaknesses, and that they are ultra powerful.

I don't want to be ultra powerful either though, my pc damn well better have weaknesses.

 

Whilst I agree, I am curious to which difficulty level you played at. I got pretty far on Nightmare but I would've never been able to do it without Pause and a good team. I thought that DA2 was super fun and I was very very engaged, I don't really know why I stopped in the middle of it, something about the skill trees not accommodating to how I wanted to build my party (It felt cluttered and messy somehow). I couldn't make my party feel like how I wanted them to feel (like one unit, they were more like 1 unit each).

 

I can honestly say that I have never run across this problem before. Must come from my habit of putting ALL the good gear on MY character and only stingily handing out what the NPC's need to survive.

 

I usually do this in anything but the IE games, in the IE games I try out the first Full Plate I find on my main character, if that doesn't work out too well I put it on someone else. If I find a whooping master sword and my character only has a regular long sword, I see if someone else can benefit from it first (because I want a party composition, rather than 1 strong character and 5 fodder characters).

 

I never use scripts.

 

Finally I had a point but I lose it in the paragraphs... right! I can only speak for myself, but I don't want anyone feel like an individual power by themselves, I want a full party that functions like a full party. The composition of my character and the companions become awesome, and not one character is awesome by himself. Except for the Solo Play with 1 character, and something should make up for that (1 solo character can get enough experience by him-/herself to be able to fill out several roles... becomes a slight Jack-of-All-Trades type character that can be a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Ranger/Cipher "Multi-Class").

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I reiterate this and I might add, "don't make companions more awesome than characters from the Adventurer's Hall".

 

Again, like I first said, this is all dependent on how awesome you make them. Obsidian has no control over this.

 

That wasn't really my concern (if I mess up my chars I'd accept that). What I'm getting at is that companions should play by the same rules as your created chars, they shouldn't have more skills/ feats than a self-made character of their level, and no unique magical equipment.

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If I want to have my ego stroked I'll go play Dragon Age or Mass Effect. I prefer playing underdogs who aren't as powerful as their opposition, and then succeed by being clever. It's difficult to do this when you're heralded as an exemplar of hero-dom. At least in the Baldur's Gate saga, they only started referring to you as the most powerful Bhaalspawn ever in Throne of Bhaal when you'd had plenty of opportunity to earn that in-game.

 

That said, I do remember that Edwin was a pretty cheesy mage, and Sarevok had the kind of stats you usually had to roll an hour or so for. What I felt more jealous of was the characters who got more narrative mileage out of their class than me; Haer'Dalis makes a PC bard seem pretty flat; The NWN2 sorceress got the majority of the wizard vs sorcerer conflict in that game, etc. The class-specific strongholds in BG2 went a good way towards ameliorating that, though, simply because they let you act your class in an environment that wasn't specifically connected to the main plot.

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If I want to have my ego stroked I'll go play Dragon Age or Mass Effect. I prefer playing underdogs who aren't as powerful as their opposition, and then succeed by being clever. It's difficult to do this when you're heralded as an exemplar of hero-dom. At least in the Baldur's Gate saga, they only started referring to you as the most powerful Bhaalspawn ever in Throne of Bhaal when you'd had plenty of opportunity to earn that in-game.

 

 

I think Bioware only started to make the protagonists of their later games heroes (or at least very accomplished) from the very start because a lot of people, myself included, were sick of the whole "regular farm boy (who may or may not be the rightful heir to the throne, or a demi-god raised by human foster parents) chosen by fate/circumstance to become the savior of the world" routine. Prophecy This, extra-planar sword shard stuck in belly That. "The Hero's Journey", as described by Joseph Campbell in The Hero With a Thousand Faces, is a classic but it's also the most over-used fantasy trope there is, and I'd rather see something different in P.E.

 

At least Shepard and the (various) protagonist/s in DA:O were chosen because of their skill and/or strength. They were perfectly suited for the missions they were assigned.

Edited by Agelastos
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Personally I'm a little bit tired of being the most Awesome person in the room.

 

Never gets old for me, but hey, if you want to play Captain Average III then horses for courses.

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I don't need to be godlike awesome, but I do want the protagonist to matter more than his help. And I want to see that in the gameplay.


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Maybe they just like you? Maybe you smell nice? Maybe you pulled a thorn out of your paw? If all your social relationships are based on raw power dynamics, then you must have an interesting circle of friends.

People won't follow your orders because they like you. PC may be ugly dumb creature and still some paladin will follow his orders, not vice versa. There's something strange about this for me.

If I want to have my ego stroked I'll go play Dragon Age or Mass Effect.

Mass Effect was about group of exceptional individuals leaded by generic soldier (no matter the class) with bellow average intelligence. What stroked your ego exactly?

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I hope that the PC is not uber powerful, I want to feel some danger when I do stuff in town like steal, murder, etc. it makes it boring if there are no consequences.

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