After replaying BG2 with "fresh eyes".

[Jarmo]

Hoping to discuss the plot and events as examples of what would and would not work in Eternity.

Will contain spoilers.

 

On a scale of 1-10 I'd give it 7+

 

It's been a long while since my first playthrough and I'd forgotten nearly all events, even the major ones.

And I took different companions, I think.

 

The beginning dungeon is a bit annoying, but sets the story up nicely. There's good characterization, Jaheira is suitably motivated, Irenicus is made to feel like a complex characters with the dryads and all (this ties down nicely with the ending at elven woods, but isn't spelled out in any annoying fashion). Considering the later story, Yoshimo is dumped into you nicely.

 

The next part is the best the game has to offer.

 

You have a strong motivation to gather money and move forward, but you're not railroaded anywhere. The companion candidates you meet are all individuals, have their own stories and agendas. Companion interaction is on par with anything in any later game. In many ways the companions are better than in any later game as well, but the amount of interaction isn't. There's just not terribly much of anything, the few dozen lines everyone has though, do chisel them out well enough. The mini quests are great as well. Skinner quest, unseeing eye, wipe out trolls from stronghold. All good stuff.

 

Eventually though, you'd pick up the plot again. And then things take a turn to the worse.

 

From the asylum to the end, it's a pretty straight road of hacking opponents to bits.

Asylum would have been pretty good, if there hadn't been the lower basement levels. Doesn't make sense to me to have the place filled up with deathtraps, kobolds, mummies and lichs. With the cowled wizards such a pushovers for Irenicus, I can't see how they'd survive their own house. Basically the basement is just minipuzzles and combat and I don't like either very much in BG.

 

Then it's off to slash your way through the fishpeoples place, pretty much straight combat. Then off to underdark for some more combat. Underdark has a few good bits in it, but you're stuck with the companions you had when going in and just have to go along the one path. Exit from the underdark is some more straight combat. Viconia deciding she didn't want to continue as my lover was a surprising but a nice twist.

 

Then.. well.. basically you have your freedom back, but the plot leads to bodhi and the endgame with the elves.

I had thought I'd visit trademeet or watchers something or a bunch of other locations that had popped up the map, but didn't feel any pull to do it. Also, being around 20th level already I wasn't really getting any better at anything either.

 

I did visit to put a stop to Firkraag, because I had to pull out before when the vampires in the dungeon were just too tough opponents, easily wiping out summoned demons and casting domination or something. This time they were easy pickings (for Viconias fallen deva). Firkraag itself fell as well, but getting a supersword nobody could use was a bit anticlimatic. (Keldorn and Viconia didn't get along and the former ended up dead).

 

But other than that, I probably skipped half of the content because the plot pointed one way (in urgent manner) and random wandering didn't seem like the right or sensible course of action. I think I got the Sphere as my headquarters or something, but never visited it after the first time. Didn't see any reason to.

 

With companions draining the experience you get and not leveling up on their own, there was a strong pull to just pick a few and not play the field. I used Anomen in the early part but dumped him for Keldorn later. Keldorn ended up dead and it was no good picking Anomen back at that point, he was 6 levels behind and with straight leveling wasn't going to catch up or be useful. Viconia was dead effective all the way through, actually being 2 levels above my swashbuckler/mage with the clerics faster leveling. Yoshimo was around while I didn't yet have my thief levels activated and him just dying later without any explanation and without anyone at the bar paying any attention to it was pretty surprising. Took Minsc back later as a pack mule & damage sponge, but being 10 levels behind (and not catching up) made him pretty useless, he had hard time hitting even goblins.

 

 

 

Summing up, without spoilers:

 

the characters, both companions and opponents, were great.

Main story was pretty good, but had too much combat padding and pointless puzzles.

Sidequests were great, being combat heavy and having puzzles wasn't annoying there.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Jarmo

[Osvir]

Didn't read because of spoilers (playing Baldur's Gate II currently after finishing Baldur's Gate: TotSC).

 

My own input: Stats don't matter, but gear. Level up makes you stronger (more resistant, better saving rolls, better hit chance and better armor class, more spells). The only resource you get to spend is the "Every now and then" proficiency in a weapon or weapon style.

 

Great summary at the end for those who don't want to get spoiled

Edited November 2, 2012 by Osvir

[Sacred_Path]

A starting dungeon is a good idea, if it's done right.

 

Bad example: BG2

 

Good example: Wizardry 8

 

Since the characters in PE will start battle-ready and more able-bodied/minded than your lvl1 DnD clowns, the first dungeon (or other starting location) should be a real testing ground for your party setup and player skills.

[JFSOCC]

I'll make a shameful admittance. I never played BG2 after I went into the underdark. I liked the lot before it, but after a while it just felt like it was combat all the way, and like you mentioned I felt urged onwards. And after a while I just noticed that I hadn't decided to play for a few days, for a week, for two weeks...

[NerdBoner]

I think a "starting" level or dungeon is good to set the tone, mood and pace of the story...but it can get old if the game has a lot of replay value.

 

therefore I think a starting dungeon should have a character development component, something that maybe defines your characters class/stats and his/her starting personality and skills.

[Grand_Commander13]

I don't understand the problem with starting dungeons. Sure the Temple of Trials was a little tiresome doing it more than a couple of times in Fallout 2, but Chateau Irenicus was nice (and I only liked BG2 up until you found Imoen) and I loved Peragus in KOTOR 2 even after several playthroughs.

 

BG2, I think, suffered terribly from the D&D ruleset. Then again, what I most dislike about that ruleset is a huge draw for some of its fans: battles are so much wizard versus wizard, and you need to spend an inordinate amount of time preparing spells to be able to terminate enemy wizards.

[Monte Carlo]

Funnily enough I'm deliberately playing BG1 all over again but with TuTu for this very reason.

 

Am using a completely home-grown party as opposed to NPCs though (it's a fairly gonzo party of evil mercenaries led by a Half-Orc Ftr/Cleric).

 

I will post my thoughts anon, mebbe when we hit Gurlag's tower (only level 4 at the moment so it might be a while!

[Osvir]

I think a "starting" level or dungeon is good to set the tone, mood and pace of the story...but it can get old if the game has a lot of replay value.

 

therefore I think a starting dungeon should have a character development component, something that maybe defines your characters class/stats and his/her starting personality and skills.

 

Some kids made a pre-prologue Candlekeep mod where your character is a kid and you run around Candlekeep doing chores. It was tedious and slow and I didn't realize I could've finished it 2-3 chores after (so I accidentally made the mod prolonged and lasted longer than was required). When I finished it I was thrown a summary of the entire Baldur's Gate 1 game and started Baldur's Gate 2 and I was just sitting here thinking "Wtf I wanted to play Baldur's Gate??".

 

What if I could go up to Jondalar or Eric, Jondalar could teach me the sword (making me into a Fighter) or Eric could teach me the Ranger basics.

[Jarmo]

Yea, for me the battles with wizard opponent were real tedious.

"Oh look, he's casting time stop and buffing himself with invulnerability to everything."

Then it was either having half a dozen of pierce magics prepared, or more likely running back

and starting to summon pit fiends until the wizard inevitably would run out of spells and protections.

 

Actually that's the one part about combat I liked, it was kind of fun to just stand back and watch the demons

tearing irenicus or dragons to bits. Deva and Planetar were a lot more effective but didn't look any good.

[Sensuki]

BG2 has the best mage battles of any game.

[NerdBoner]

you guys need to learn that a good rogue massacres 95% of all mages in the game before they can even get their buffs up...

 

 

whether it's through poison, traps or hide in shadows/backstab - mages are toast.

 

Hell, you can even one shot Irenicus at Suldanessellar by laying traps all around him before killing the tree parasites.

 

 

people that say mages are OP in the game probably are the same ones that try to fight all mages head on with their fighter class characters.

[mstark]

Some spoilers ahead.

 

The first time I played BG2 I was a noob. I found it extremely exciting, and did my best to immediately collect the 20,000 gold required to continue the main quest (I had no concept of open world games, and barely understood that I was free to go do as I wanted, and wait with the main quest).

 

I played it all the way through, I had to avoid most alternative dungeons/encounters because I was severely underlevelled/equipped for them, as I jumped right into the main quest without doing anything before it. I ended up in the final fight with Irenicus around level 14. I found it the best, most immersive, and exciting game I'd ever played (having played mostly strategy games and ARPGs before it (Civilization, Settlers, Heroes of Might & Magic, Diablo, Dink Smallwood)). Since then, I've enjoyed many games from different genres, but nothing quite like it.

 

After the final fight in my first play through, I was devastated to find out that was it. I couldn't continue. All the rest of the games content that I hadn't explored was locked once you got to the last chapter. Compare this to finishing most open world games, where you can simply continue once you finished the main quest.

 

I immediately set out to play the game all the way through again. I decided I didn't want to be betrayed by Yoshimo, so I didn't bring him with me. I explored everything, and did every single quest/encounter available before I embarked on the main quest. I was very high level when I started it, and most mandatory encounters were easy. But there were other challenges, all the optional dungeons were suddenly possible for me to take on - I had an amazing time playing the game through a second time, with new companions, and new places to explore. I flat out blindly loved it.

 

I've tried to pick the game up at several occasions during the past decade, but I never got through Irenicus' dungeon. I hate it. I've started another playthrough of it now, and I'm well on my way on exploring every single area and quest once again. I've forgotten almost everything about the game, aside from the main plot line and Irenicus' dungeon. I'm loving it, but some of the controls, while exceptionally good for its time, aren't up to par with modern games. Game needs more context sensitive hotkeys, better party selection management, path finding, and inventory management mechanics like easily moving items between party members.

 

I'd like to compare BG2's open world aspect to that of Morrowind. In BG2 you first have to play through a mandatory opening dungeon, whereas in Morrowind you're dumped on a dock in a ****hole, in an open world, with no other objective than to find a particular person in another city. I can see how BG2's dungeon is necessary for the main plot line, but I hate open world games where you have to get through an initial dungeon before being able to go do what you want. Going back to TeS, Oblivion and Skyrim introduced their own versions of this initial dungeon, and I hated both games for it. The world is open for god's sake, let me explore it as I wish. And please punish me for running into a random forest without any clue about what might be hiding there, or how to get out of it - just like it's a stupid idea in real life, unless you're informed, prepared & equipped.

 

I especially hate when the initial dungeon is a tutorial dungeon, or a long, unavoidable cut scene. I much prefer the BG style tutorials that are separate from the main game, sandboxes that allow you to explore the mechanics of the game.

 

I agree it sucks that once you've levelled a bit, taking on new companions becomes useless. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, but I don't think companions should automagically stay at your level while being outside of the party. It kind of makes sense to stick with the companions you've been through so much with, though. Abandoning them just because you need an extra mage for an encounter doesn't make sense, realistically. I much rather be forced to play the game through from the start, if I want to experience it with new companions.

Edited November 2, 2012 by mstark

[Osvir]

people that say mages are OP in the game probably are the same ones that try to fight all mages head on with their fighter class characters.

 

The plot thickens... close-ranged firearms that pierce the magical veil

[Sensuki]

While I can understand why some people find the BG2 dungeon annoying, that's about the length a proper game prologue should be. The Icewind Dale 2 prologue was also alright.

 

Other games just cheapen out on it hard.

[HansKrSG]

I think Irenicus' dungeon is too small to be of any annoyance. I have played through Bg1+2 (With the BG trilogy mod), more times than I care to admit.

[mstark]

While I can understand why some people find the BG2 dungeon annoying, that's about the length a proper game prologue should be. The Icewind Dale 2 prologue was also alright.

 

Other games just cheapen out on it hard.

It's a great prologue! It just made me... never really replay the game, because it's a linear obstacle in the way of exploring the game's best, open, content. It's great for the first playthrough, not so much after that.

 

It's probably just me, but I have an issue with such things in a game.

Edited November 2, 2012 by mstark

[Sacred_Path]

The problem with Irenicus' dungeon is not that it's too long, it's that it doesn't offer anything to either novice nor experienced players apart from feeding you some backstory. OTOH, I've played through Wiz8's Monastery more often than I can remember, and it never got boring because it is a very solid testing ground for different party setups (I admit it also has to do with the fact that combat is much more satisfying than in an IE game).

[mstark]

^ This about sums it up better than I ever could

[Monte Carlo]

Wow i got Dungeon-be-Gone *years* ago and just teleport out of Chateau Irenicus with all the necessary loot and XP.

 

Although I had fun with Improved Ilyich too.

[Jasede]

Yea, for me the battles with wizard opponent were real tedious.

"Oh look, he's casting time stop and buffing himself with invulnerability to everything."

Then it was either having half a dozen of pierce magics prepared, or more likely running back

and starting to summon pit fiends until the wizard inevitably would run out of spells and protections.

 

Actually that's the one part about combat I liked, it was kind of fun to just stand back and watch the demons

tearing irenicus or dragons to bits. Deva and Planetar were a lot more effective but didn't look any good.

 

The best part of the game was tedious to you?

[Karkarov]

A starting dungeon is a good idea, if it's done right.

 

Bad example: BG2

 

Good example: Wizardry 8

 

Since the characters in PE will start battle-ready and more able-bodied/minded than your lvl1 DnD clowns, the first dungeon (or other starting location) should be a real testing ground for your party setup and player skills.

Are you sure you played the same two games you name cause the Wizardry 8 starting dungeon was pretty meh on all levels and the BG2 one got you some nice items to start you off, introduced the antagonist, and formed a solid foundation for the games plot.

 

 

people that say mages are OP in the game probably are the same ones that try to fight all mages head on with their fighter class characters.

Nah not really, they are just bad players. My fighter in BG2 was more than capable of killing a mage in a single attack round, the minute his defenses failed the mage was a dead man walking. I think in the climactic encounter at the end game Irenicus lasted .... 3 maybe 4 rounds. That is only cause all his immunity crap got pre cast then recast once with time stop.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Karkarov

[Jarmo]

Yea, for me the battles with wizard opponent were real tedious.

"Oh look, he's casting time stop and buffing himself with invulnerability to everything."

Then it was either having half a dozen of pierce magics prepared, or more likely running back

and starting to summon pit fiends until the wizard inevitably would run out of spells and protections.

 

Actually that's the one part about combat I liked, it was kind of fun to just stand back and watch the demons

tearing irenicus or dragons to bits. Deva and Planetar were a lot more effective but didn't look any good.

 

The best part of the game was tedious to you?

 

No big surprise, but it wasn't the best part of the game for me.

 

Much the same, I liked the Unseeing eye quest... except for the beholder lair which was all too much combat and summoning.

It would have been better for me if I could have just walked past some easy corpse eaters, found the item,

zapped the baddie and be done with the whole thing. I just don't like the challenge padding through combat in quests.

 

All of puzzle fights where you have to figure out what to do is much like having to solve a math problem before getting to move forward,

and saying "you need to get better at math", or "use more lube and learn to like it" just doesn't help at all.

 

If I had actually liked the combat I'd probably have given the game 8+.

[Sacred_Path]

A starting dungeon is a good idea, if it's done right.

 

Bad example: BG2

 

Good example: Wizardry 8

 

Since the characters in PE will start battle-ready and more able-bodied/minded than your lvl1 DnD clowns, the first dungeon (or other starting location) should be a real testing ground for your party setup and player skills.

Are you sure you played the same two games you name cause the Wizardry 8 starting dungeon was pretty meh on all levels and the BG2 one got you some nice items to start you off, introduced the antagonist, and formed a solid foundation for the games plot.

 

It's begging the question what was so 'meh' about Wizardry's starting dungeon?

 

Nice items - in Wiz you actually have starting gear and find more items in the dungeon, items that are basic but appropriate for your level. No difference to BG2 in that regard. You then had to manage these items (ammo, potion) responsibly, because you'd spend some time in the monastery to prepare yourself for the road to Arnika. In Irenicus' dungeon, you're just being flooded with healing items, so much so that you'll thrive on those for quite some time into the game.

 

Do you think it was an advantage to the gameplay to meet the antagonist right away? Whether yes or no, you don't learn much about him except he's deranged and wants to 'unlock' something about you. I could live without that information tbh.

 

Solid foundation to the plot - that you were ambushed and, as per usual, stripped of your old gear? That's pretty meh I'd say.

[rjshae]

My own input: Stats don't matter, but gear. Level up makes you stronger (more resistant, better saving rolls, better hit chance and better armor class, more spells). The only resource you get to spend is the "Every now and then" proficiency in a weapon or weapon style.

The old AD&D game rules didn't allow much in the way of customization. I haven't seen that be much of a problem in more recent RPGs.

[Hormalakh]

Any of you play Irenicus's dungeon with the SCSII mod? You're not allowed to rest (only once to get your mage spells), the monsters are tougher and the healing potions are just right. I loved playign that dungeon 3 times in a row because I kept dying.

 

That made the dungeon much more fun.