Update #29: Fulfillment and the Pros and Cons of Nostalgia and Realism

[Nomine Vacans]

I do see some problems with it however, if not done very carefully it would just be another limitation to your character. E.g. you want to play a mage in full plate, but nope, you need to use leather instead because leather allows you to use the X-enchantment and plate does not.

But if a suitable division of enchantments could be found, it could be a good system.

It's also called "balancing", when you pay for using benefits of plate armor (better protection etc.) by giving up access to some specific benefits given by leather (named enchantment). Otherwise this will be frikkin' twilight vampires - all advantages, no weakness.

 

IMO, if mages to be alowed to use heavy armor, there must be restrictions in place, so heavy armored fighter didn't become "mage without spells" and unarmored mages still be a viable option.

[Elerond]

Some culture specific materials, which other cultures see as inferior like chinese paper armour, in armours could be nice addiyion.

Paper armour actually works quite well as MythBusters season 9 episode 12 tells us

[tehnikpaul]

I also think that the old +1 +12 system was ridiculous. why not learn from historical sources the way armor was separated?

 

For example a tanned Animal Hide is actually an exceptional protection and leather armor is nothing more than processed animal hides, but the difference is that one is socially acceptable and one isn't in the right circumstances.

 

What I'm trying to say is that the difference between pure metal armor can be reduced to social valences. Such as the fact that an etched, golden lions decorated armor (such as the one's displayed at the Royal Armory next door) was a suit fit for a king and unlikely to have been worn on a battleground, but it would have been highly impressive in a march.

 

But a battle hardened party should have armor that looks worn, can be upgraded with newer bits, can be repaired, has blood stains and weapon/burn/acid marks. It all should add to a intimidate out of battle/ fear effect within battle.

 

New armor should look new (give charisma effects), etc, but make the player either look rich or as a total novice on the field of battle.

 

Inscriptions, marks and sigils added to the armor, should be the ones to enhance it. A suit of armor was a dear friend and a costly investment. It had the same importance like suits have nowadays, but on a field of life and death.

 

After sorting the real damage, you can add as much happy magic stuff to it as you want. But I like warriors and I insist on stuff that shows wear, unlike the crap loot I see all the time.

[Hormalakh]

Yup, I surely am. Has the topic been discussed before? If you point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61857-oversexualization-of-females-in-video-games/page__hl__%20female%20%20armor

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60868-the-boob-armor-and-the-whole-issue-of-objectification/page__hl__%2Bfemale+%2Barmor

 

Search "female armor". You'll find more than three threads on this subject. Happy reading!

[Hormalakh]

Yup, I surely am. Has the topic been discussed before? If you point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61857-oversexualization-of-females-in-video-games/page__hl__%20female%20%20armor

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60868-the-boob-armor-and-the-whole-issue-of-objectification/page__hl__%2Bfemale+%2Barmor

 

Search "female armor". You'll find more than three threads on this subject. Happy reading!

 

 

Some culture specific materials, which other cultures see as inferior like chinese paper armour, in armours could be nice addiyion.

Paper armour actually works quite well as MythBusters season 9 episode 12 tells us

 

I want paper armor in this game now! Josh, make it happen. Glanfanthan paper armor FTW!

[Gorik]

It was fun to read all the posts on this update, there's a lot of thinking power in this forum, I don't envy Josh (or whoever at Obsidian doing this work) though for trying to make it all into something useful for the game. Anyhow I would like to start with a question; Are you planning on using some kind of fuzzy logic combat system like in Quest for Glory IV: Shadows of Darkness (described by Corey Cole). I guess this would make sense when using RTWP for combat!?

 

My reason for asking is that i guess it changes how you can implement different combat modifiers.

 

Some of this has already been mentioned in earlier posts in one form or another but i hope you forgive me for repeating. My view of this is that i think you could have a number of different armor modifiers like; "how well does this armor stop cutting blows", "how well does this armor stop magic", "how well does this armor stop projectiles", "how much does this armor hamper my movement" etc. These modifiers would be represented by a gradual slider (0-100% for example) that would (or would not) be directly presented to the player. I also think the way it's presented to the player will determine if it is "just hard work" or "fun" to try different armor. By using a gradual system i think you wouldn't need tiers (from a mechanistic point of view) but tiers could be useful for explaining to the player the pro's and con's of the armor. I guess the amount of modifiers tied to every type of item in the game will be restricted by time and cost, I just think it's great that we can have ideas and hope you guys can make anything useful out of it!

 

 

One thing that I loved about BG was the written lore of certain armor/weapons (or objects of any kind) IMHO thats something that you just can't take away in PE. Like finding Baldurans helm and cloak felt really cool even though it wasn't the best items in the game. Maybe lore could be used to show value of objects instead of Diablo-like coloring systems?

 

Finally, thanks for a great update and thanks for doing them so often

Edited October 31, 2012 by Gorik

[Gambler]

One thing I'm certain of is that I would like to see more meaningful differences between different items, including armor. Even if that means fewer item types.

 

For example, Fallout 1 had only a handful of armor tiers, but getting from one to the other made a real difference. You could do more stuff, go to more dangerous areas. It felt like an achievement. Also, that gave us a reason to actively seek out better armors, save money to buy one, and so on.

 

In a lot of games, this concept is just not there. We get marginally better equipment every 10 minutes, without even noticing it. That's boring.

[Sensuki]

Nostalgia is important, but I don't think it's that important to the Armor System. I think most people will agree.

 

 

Crafting and enchanting in Project Eternity will allow players to use objects and materials they find during exploration to both create consumable items like potions and scrolls as well as give their gear custom upgrades that can't be accomplished by other means. This system is intended to be easy to use and very flexible, allowing players to customize many aspects of what they can create or alter. Whether it's brewing basic potions from herbs and minerals commonly found throughout the world or upgrading a humble broadsword into a custom-named, magically-imbued weapon of distinctive and legendary power, we want to give players the ability to make it. On the development side of things, we also want to make the system as data-driven as possible, allowing us to easily extend our list of recipes in the future.

 

I like the idea that a few people have mentioned of armors being made up of a sum of parts (or at least being able to upgrade "chest armor" etc).

 

 

The KotoR2 crafting system was okay, you could find various parts that upgraded your weapon.

 

3E sort of solved this problem by implementing Maximum Dexterity Bonus, which meant that characters with high Dexterity scores would generally equip whatever armor gave them the maximum bonus to Armor Class without capping the Armor Class bonus they received from Dexterity. There were a few problems with this.

 

To fix this problem, change the Maximum Dexterity bonus to a percentage of the character's Dexterity and make every stat point give bonuses rather than every second point. You could also change the movement impedements to be a percentage of the character's Strength or something as well.

 

Now instead of Full Plate Mail having a maximum dexterity bonus of +1, the Maximum Dexterity bonus is now 60% or something, so a character with 20 dexterity wearing plate is still more dextrous than a character with 16 dexterity wearing plate.

 

Make wearing different types of armor a real choice for the player based on both character build and circumstance. E.g. a swashbuckling lightly-armored fighter will tend to wear one of a variety of light armor types (maybe a gambeson or leather cuirass), but in a circumstance where protection is of utmost importance, the player may still choose to wear heavy armor with a loss in build optimization.

 

Situations where a character that normally wears light armor would suffer pretty badly from not wearing armor due to less protection from damage spring to mind.

 

Such as adventuring in a hard area where he/she is more likely to get hit or donning a breastplate for encounters against gunpowder equipped opponents or really good archers

 

A Wizard for example, might cast "Phantom Blade" which produces a phantom longsword in their hand, they now need to enter melee combat to use the Phantom Blade. So if a Wizard is intending on using such spells, armor will give that extra protection from incoming damage when entering melee.

 

This sort of implies that using Damage Reduction in some manner would be useful.

 

Titan Quest has a Defense Rating and Armor Class. Defense Rating is your chance of being hit, Armor Class is a form of damage reduction. Armor does not add to defense rating (unless it has a magical attribute) but adds to Armor Class. Something similar to this may work.

 

This can also tied into how the Health/Stamina mechanic works, let's say I have 50 Stamina and 40 Health. Let's say I get hit for 8 damage. How is that damage distributed? How does the damage reduction work and how is the spread across health and stamina calculated? Does Armor protect from Stamina Damage or just Health Damage? Does armor determine the percentage of Health Damage recieved from an incoming attack?

 

Disassociate armor value from class type in favor of different build types. E.g. a wizard can wear heavy armor and be a different type of wizard instead of just "a wizard who is bad".

 

Easily accomplished by taking away any type of armor (and weapon) proficiency associated with classes. However if you take away restrictions from classes it interrupts some of the thematic features from some classes such as Druids not being able to wear metals (probably a non-issue).

 

Allow a character to maintain a character concept throughout the game without suffering extreme mechanical penalties. E.g. a character who starts the game in some form of light armor can complete the game in some form of light armor with appropriate gameplay trade-offs compared to wearing heavy armor.

 

Don't make any extreme mechanical penalties for wearing armor types ? Armor Specialization feats also springs to mind. Advance in an armor style of your choice, make it more viable over the course of the game.

 

It does bring to mind some questions though, as some people in the thread have mentioned before. Do you want the Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger or Druid to be able to wear Full Plate as well as a Fighter or Cleric might be able to ?

 

Should something like hide armor be supplanted/made obsolete by leather as an "improved version" or does that effectively kill the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian?

 

Yes it does, but if you change that to should Leather be supplanted by Studded Leather or an improved leather, then yes. But you could make Hide Armor it's own category to save the visual concept of the Barbaric Characters, and just have different types of hides.

 

The Crafting system could also make up the difference in the meantime. If you give an item a bunch of material slots and perhaps an enchantment slot and you have invested crafting materials and item parts into upgrading that item, you then have to pay the resources and time cost to transfer any (if applicable) item parts to your new item, so you may end up using your current armor for a little while longer (until you go back to town/home base etc).

 

If armor types like hide (or scale, or mail) should remain viable on their own, how should that "upgrade" be expressed to the player? Functional descriptors like "fine scale", "superior hide", etc.? Cultural or material descriptors like "Vailian doublet", "iron feather scale"? Olde tyme numerical descriptors like "scale armor +1", "half-plate +2"?

 

I think that the Player should have to open up the Item Page and look at the stats to be able to determine the difference, or at least, put the armor on outside of combat and compare the trade-offs. That's what you did in the Infinity Engine games most of the time anyway, On subsequent playthroughs it won't matter as much. I'm fine with there being a color-coded system that defines item types, but not every magic item should be better than a normal item, unless it was the same item, enchanted. You could have as many tiers as you like (Normal, Exceptional, Epic etc).

You have the capability to make a really deep item system with a lot of choices/consequences (such as how to spend your resources). We funded that stretch goal so go for it.

 

Is it okay for an upgrade from a visual type of armor to maintain its relative position to other armor types even if "realistically" that upgraded armor is now probably superior in protection to other armor types? E.g. an armored jack or brigandine armor is probably more protective than even nice suit of leather armor... but mechanically, we're presenting it as an upgrade of a padded (doublet) armor type.

 

I don't really care. Preferably not, but whatever.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Sensuki

[GeneralAtrox]

I think to provide longevity to armour, maybe allow the player to upgrade it so it's a Chain Mail +1 and make it a cheap way for the player to do it before they upgrade or find new armour.

 

I've always found in games that you will get your Fur hide first, then once you find something better that set of armour is forgotten forever, I think there should be an attempt to make all armour useful in some small way,

 

Apart from that I think this project is going great so far!

[greenmonster]

I enjoyed the discussion of armor. Here are my thoughts on the subject.

 

Getting hit and taking damage are 2 seperate issues. Avoiding the hit is a function of movement (ie strength and dex). I see armor and shields a preventing damage when you are hit. If you do not combine these attributes into a single armor score you get more options for light, medium and heavy.

 

So, light would be better at avoiding but offer less damage reduction.

Heavy would get hit more often but have high damage absorption.

Medium would not be reduced to the murky middle that is useless as soon as you can afford heavy. It would offer a compromise between avoidance and damage reduction and be more utilitarian.

 

The trick here is creating a variety of ememies with different ratios of hit and damage ability.

For example

Standard opponets are reasonably avoidable in light but heavy often takes hits for less damage. So after a few, say 5, combat sequences the likely damage to both would be equivalent. Light = 3 misses and 2 hits averaging 5 damage per hit for 10 damage. Heavy = 5 hits averging 2 damage per hit for 10 damage.

Some specialized opponets are harder or easier for different armors based on damage dealt, number of attacks, precision, type of damage (elements, blunt, sharp, etc). So a precise attacher with low damage would be hard for light but easy for heavy and normal for medium. High damage low precision would be the other way around.

[mcmanusaur]

Well, what about "multi-classing" armor or crossing-over between armor? Say you started with a hide armor but as you went up in tier, you can switch over to a scale class instead. That way you get a partial benefit of the hide class but have now shifted over to the scale class. Perhaps this locks your armor out of the previous hide class and you can now only move down the scale armor tiers.

No, no, a million times no. That's just another mechanic that has no kind of in-character justification; characters should be able to switch armor at will (within reason), and you should only get bonuses for what you're actually wearing. Likewise, I don't support there being random, far-flung class-based bonuses for different types of non-magical armor; once again that's covering up for the fact that the armor statistics don't present an interesting enough portrait, which is the ultimate problem.

 

I should also add my feelings on the loincloth fighter and the plate armor mage. Variety within classes is fine, but there still needs to be some kind of incentive for players to do what is intuitive (i.e. give a tank a lot of armor, or leave their mage in a robe or at least lighter armor). That said, I'm for being able to have some kind of plate mage, but players should have to tailor other aspects of their build to make this viable. It shouldn't be as simple as "I want my character to have the novelty of heavy armor, which hey... happens to be equally viable on my current build". At that point however, we must always consider how different we truly are from something like the paladin class.

[Sensuki]

Shields is a completely different discussion entirely, I'd like to see Shields handled in a much more interesting way than they are in D&D.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Sensuki

[Dashtego]

People taking issue with armor types that did not coincide or appear historically should realize that this is a fantasy world and that such considerations should not necessarily matter. I honestly couldn't care less if two armor types that would never have been seen side-by-side in European history can be seen side-by-side in PE since, thankfully, PE is not set during our history or even in our world. Same deal with armor in PE behaving just as a rough counterpart in the real world would have. Those same people should be taking issue with the existence of magic, mythical creatures, invented worlds, and combat that allows players to take many hits, if they're so hung up on realism. You either accept this is a fantasy realm with its own rules and laws, or you call for realism. Being nitpicky and saying "ooh, but armor type Y was slightly more cumbersome and also was found 75 years before armor type Z in the 16th century so that better be how they work here" simply doesn't make any sense.

 

Make armor cool, have a lot of variety and incentive travel but having new (not simply "better") armor in different parts of the world, make armor choice a matter of strategic consideration, and have a variety of clear statistical information provided to players on the item info screen/box-out that allows those considerations to be made without guesswork. Armor choice should really matter, and "better" and "worse" armors should be more complicated designators than a single AC variable. Those are the big, very general things I will be looking for. "Realism" is more or less irrelevant.

[Hormalakh]

People taking issue with armor types that did not coincide or appear historically should realize that this is a fantasy world and that such considerations should not necessarily matter. I honestly couldn't care less if two armor types that would never have been seen side-by-side in European history can be seen side-by-side in PE since, thankfully, PE is not set during our history or even in our world. Same deal with armor in PE behaving just as a rough counterpart in the real world would have. Those same people should be taking issue with the existence of magic, mythical creatures, invented worlds, and combat that allows players to take many hits, if they're so hung up on realism.

 

Then why stick with a historical time period? Just make it a mish-mash. Put in cowboys and aliens and dinosaurs and everything else that is fantastical. Take your inspirations from Salvador Dali and Picasso. Deal with it.

 

That isn't how you write good fantasy. The closer fantasy is to feasibility, the better. It's better to imagine a world that truly exists with a few interesting ideas, than it is to completely make things up from nothing. The way I see fantasy is that it speaks to our own nature as human beings with a few changes that allow us to make interesting "thought-experiments" about mature, adult topics.

 

This is exactly why I think Josh Sawyer and the rest of Obsidian are the right fit for the job. They care about history and try to integrate the human condition in a world where humans aren't everything. Then they create world where players can think deeply about those characters, and in fact about who they are as people themselves.

 

Edit: This is what makes fantasy and science-fiction even remotely interesting to so many people.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Hormalakh

[quantum_freak]

Great Update, thanks! Anwered a lot of my questions without me even asking them.

[Keyrock]

I think armor can be tied into splitting hit points into health and stamina really well. Heavier armor and armor with greater coverage could not only mitigate more damage, they could be much better at protecting against damage directly to health. This could be done as a percentage of damage or simply a chance to prevent damage directly to health completely. For example, a suit of plate could mitigate 6-8 points of damage and have a 90% chance of preventing health damage (damage that would have otherwise been direct health damage now becomes stamina damage). A leather jerkin on the other hand could mitigate 2-3 points of damage and only have a 30% chance of preventing health damage. On the other hand the suit of plate would have a 4 point dodge penalty, whereas the leather jerkin would have no dodge penalty at all. Now wearing the leather jerkin you're more likely to dodge attacks completely and take no damage at all. However when you do get hit you take a lot more damage and have a much higher chance of suffering a serious wound (damage directly to health). Wearing the plate armor you are likely to get hit a lot more often, but each hit will do much less damage and the chance of you suffering a serious wound would be very small.

[Infiltrator_SF]

I think that all armor types should be viable from start to finish.

 

That said, there should definitely be "normal" variants of armor that are simply weak compared to the magical variants.

 

I think that there wasn't much distinction between armor in IE games when you would compare the same tier, i.e. if your character was a thief, initiatlly, you'd want the leather armor with the lowest AC and eventually you'd want one with the best magical attributes, which typically had the best AC anyway. Same goes for robes for mages and plated stuff for fighters.

 

But I think that some armor types should have a subtle, specific property on their own and not just an AC modifier.

 

For example, mail armor should be resitant to piercing and/or slashing attacks, while padded armor should be resistant to bludgeoning sources of attack. This would all go in addition to the armor benefit that you gain across the board.

 

But it shouldn't stop on that, some variants could also provide benefit to sneaking (low noise) casting (easier to move hands) etc. These bonuses should not be big, but, again, enough to favor a certain style of play.

[ghola]

Please consider:

Armor, and items in general, as pointed out for a modern computer assisted/mediated experience, could be much more 'realistic' in terms of complex advantages and disadvantages. Specifically, instead of a clear, clean 'progression', the statistics could be perhaps percentile bonuses and deficits in a large number of attributes, such as piercing resistance, crushing, slashing, fire, cold, flexibility/freedom-of-movement, weight, electricity, location effectiveness (chest: 50% piercing/10% crushing/60% slashing; arms: 0% p/c/s, etc.) for any piece of 'cultural variant' in a complex web of choices with no obvious winner for 'most' situations. This way, maximum flexibility, flavor/look and realism, IMHO.

[mcmanusaur]

I really do not want to end up with World of Warcraft, where I have to run around with 4 full armor sets in my backpack for specific situations. Please do not go this route -- when you've found the best armor your character has access to and can currently use, let that type be the best for all situations.

I agree that running around with multiple loadouts is tiresome, but simply put some types of armor are advantageous is certain situations, and that's how it should stay. It just shouldn't be as mundane and transparent as having one anti-fire armor set, one anti-ice armor set, one anti-lightning armor set, one anti-poison armor set, etc. that you just switch based off the type of monster the party is facing. It should require more strategic thinking.

 

you shouldn't be punished mechanically just because taking the more optimal choice doesn't fit your idea of the character.

Well then what makes something "optimal" if you're not punished for not using it? Either there's an optimal choice and you are implicitly punished for not using it, or there's no optimal.

 

One other thing I should mention in regard to cultural modifiers is that it shouldn't simply be linear where Elven>Dwarven>Orcish. Certain cultures should excel in certain endeavors, and the hierarchies should vary accordingly. For a generic example, an elven bow is better than a dwarven bow, but a dwarven axe is better than an elven axe, etc. Blah blah blah

Edited October 31, 2012 by mcmanusaur

[wanderon]

Loved the update - the only thing I would suggest re: armor is giving them enough inherent or added attributtes and bonuses to make it a character by character decision as to what might suit you best aiming towards an armor system where there is in fact no definitive optimal armor. (which seems to be what you are shooting for)

 

I think I would like to see companions choosing their own armor as well (by default perhaps) with a possible player over-ride option!

 

( altho I suspect there will be lots of opposition to this in spite of the over-ride option)

[RTWAP]

• I strongly believe that a player should be able to end the game with the same weapon/armor that they started with. Crazy? My reasoning is that we often find ourselves looking for that next legendary item such as a certain dark elf ranger's scimitars, but what makes these weapons special from any other weapon? True magical enhancement - or more likely - the user imbues something into the item. So I like to make means for players to create the legendary items for the next generation.
  

 

I ran a campaign once where items become more magical as the character progressed.

 

In a soul-based system like PE maybe the bad guys souls accumulate a portion of each soul they dispatch kind of like spiritual sludge. And when your valiant hero kills them, the "freed" bits of souls attach in a more useful way to the hero and his equipment. Of course, a bit of the soul of the bad guy attaches too, but in a non-useful way.

[Gyor]

Magic, not just mundane weapons like axes, guns, bows, and swords need to be taken into account.

 

If you get hit by a lightening bolt in plate armour the gods help your sorry arse, you'd be better off in rubber armour.

 

Speaking of which using history as a base line is fine, but you need to take into account of factors that would change how such a society functions.

 

Example would be what if the Dyerwood has rubber trees? extracting rubber and shaping it into say clothes and armour is well within the Midevil capablities had they rubber trees to access. Less technology advanced cultures, various tribes used rubber, the Aztec used rubber, abit not as armour to my knowledge, but still.

 

To get rubber one taps rubber trees for a milky fluid and then do stuff like using smoke to cure it.

 

So rubber armour might not be historic, but had rubber trees evovled in Europe it may well have been.

 

Magical creatures has to be taken into account as well, scale armour from dragon scales, troll hide, solid energy armour made from some kind of beast made from solid fire, hide made from the skin of a giant electric eel. Plate Armour made from the metal like bones of a demon.

 

 

 

 

[Diotisalvi]

Actually, Lightning laughs at two inches of rubber. You may be safer in a full metal armour if it acted like a faraday cage. But that's a little OT.

[RTWAP]

Cultural or material descriptors:

 

I think that adds to the immersiveness. Names should be what the armour is called in the world.

 

Amour attributes:

 

All armours should have attribute values that define how they work in the game system. Some examples could be:

• Damage reduction
  
• Hit reduction
  
• Reduction in movement speed
  
• Reduction in nimbleness
  
• Weight
  
• Impact on spellcasting (perhaps for each type of spellcasting)
  

Armour system:

 

I would suggest a limited number of fundamental armour types (e.g. cloth, leather, chain, banded, plate). And then take the armour attributes and define allowable upper and lower limits for each armour type. To balance the armour types you look at the best possible armour of each type and determine if it is balanced against the other types across the set of character classes, roles, and play styles. The best plate will never leave you as nimble as the best leather, but it could leave you more nimble than an average suit of leather.

 

Comparing armours:

 

A very easy way to compare armours is to have the system determine a price. At a glance a player can get a sense of how good the armour is, and then delve into the details as desired. The algorithm used by the system should inflate the price as an attribute value nears the top of the range for that type, and if multiple attributes have high values then it should be very expensive.

 

Another tweak ...

 

I like quality adjectives for armour like Crude, Flawed, Standard, Fine, Improved, Superior, Exceptional, Heroic, Exquisite, and Legendary. Have each armour have a base value for all attributes (and then vary some of the attributes to get the final values). For example, maybe the system generated a random set of plate that is 50% improved. For all the attributes pick the midpoint for the allowable values for plate. Then vary some of the attributes randomly. This gives you an easy way to set the quality adjective for the armour. Maybe 50% improved is Superior. So it's Superior Plate.

 

And it lets the player know at a glance how good the armour is on most of the attributes. Then the player can delve into the details to see where the armour is better than expected, and where it is worse.

 

In terms of auto-naming of random armours, you could use the highest attribute to generate the name. Armours with high stealth are from Dantos. Armour with high movement modifiers are Telcerian. So from the example above, it might have a stealth value that's 65% of the way to the max stealth value for plate.

 

So it's Superior Dantosian Plate.

Edited October 31, 2012 by RTWAP

[Quid]

I certainly hope you do intend to keep the full plate. It is very iconic for the high medieval era.