The half-races (will there be an inclusion?)

[Shades]

Well sure if we take it to an extreme conclusion, but that is not even relevent here since P:E already has a selection of playable races. I was saying something more like 'give us a limited choice of races but make that choice have a significant impact'.

 

My point is that if you keep saying fewer is okay it may get to such an extreme conclusion with time (after all DA: O had 3 races, a lot less than the D&D games that came before it, and then DA2 had 1). I'm not saying we should have so many choices for races that we have to scroll for hours to get through them all, just that more choice isn't always a bad thing. MotB had quite a number of races and subraces to choose from and it was a great game. And of course I'm pushing for half-breeds because I like playing them myself and we've already got the standard humans, elves, dwarves, gnome-inspired, orc-inspired and even the equivalent of planetouched as a subrace. So why not half-breeds as a subrace too.

 

As I've said, half-breeds wouldn't necessarily count as an entirely different race but could be a subrace. Using half-elves as an example, I think in some settings I've seen it mentioned that to a human a half-elf looks like an elf, whereas to an elf a half-elf looks like a human unless they're quite familiar with the other races features and can recognize that it isn't your typical elf/human. So it doesn't have to mean that every person the player comes across will scream 'Oh no! You're a half-breed!' (you could cut down on specific dialogue for the subrace this way). Only those that can spot what they are.

 

Though of course I would like to see half-breeds implemented with some sort of prejudice (or perhaps the equivalent to a charisma penalty? Since both races that the half-breed is part of may find the mixed appearance unsettling if they don't assume they're the other race. And there's the possibility of them not quite turning out right, I don't imagine all half-breeds would strike a pleasant middle between their two races) as you don't really see this in the IE games when playing as a half-elf. I can't recall if half-orcs had much dialogue specific to them. And maybe half-breeds would get different reactions depending on where they were. As someone mentioned in the region that has a mix of human and elves half-elves probably wouldn't be frowned upon.

[Durinax]

Though of course I would like to see half-breeds implemented with some sort of prejudice (or perhaps the equivalent to a charisma penalty? Since both races that the half-breed is part of may find the mixed appearance unsettling if they don't assume they're the other race. And there's the possibility of them not quite turning out right, I don't imagine all half-breeds would strike a pleasant middle between their two races) as you don't really see this in the IE games when playing as a half-elf. I can't recall if half-orcs had much dialogue specific to them. And maybe half-breeds would get different reactions depending on where they were. As someone mentioned in the region that has a mix of human and elves half-elves probably wouldn't be frowned upon.

In Arcanum as a Elf you wouldn't be particularily welcome in the dwarf mines, and people would be stand offish in the normal cities (due to elven arrogence) and dwarves the same but reversed. Half orc and half ogre where very disliked/distrusted everywhere, although there where backgrounds that could help with that.

 

It made for some really good and interesting dialogue and question

[rjshae]

I don't dislike half breeds, it's just that independently evolved creature should rarely be compatible (at least, that's what I gathered from my high-school days). And even if they could be, the chance that the offspring can reproduce are even smaller.

 

Yes, in a world of arcane rituals, multiple deities, vampires, healing potions, flaming swords, sprites, invisibility spells, and giant spiders, your point is well taken.

Edited October 23, 2012 by rjshae

[Veeno]

Yes, in a world of arcane rituals, multiple deities, vampires, healing potions, flaming swords, sprites, invisibility spells, and giant spiders, your point is well taken.

 

Forsooth.

[eselle28]

Well sure if we take it to an extreme conclusion, but that is not even relevent here since P:E already has a selection of playable races. I was saying something more like 'give us a limited choice of races but make that choice have a significant impact'.

 

My point is that if you keep saying fewer is okay it may get to such an extreme conclusion with time (after all DA: O had 3 races, a lot less than the D&D games that came before it, and then DA2 had 1). I'm not saying we should have so many choices for races that we have to scroll for hours to get through them all, just that more choice isn't always a bad thing. MotB had quite a number of races and subraces to choose from and it was a great game. And of course I'm pushing for half-breeds because I like playing them myself and we've already got the standard humans, elves, dwarves, gnome-inspired, orc-inspired and even the equivalent of planetouched as a subrace. So why not half-breeds as a subrace too.

 

As I've said, half-breeds wouldn't necessarily count as an entirely different race but could be a subrace. Using half-elves as an example, I think in some settings I've seen it mentioned that to a human a half-elf looks like an elf, whereas to an elf a half-elf looks like a human unless they're quite familiar with the other races features and can recognize that it isn't your typical elf/human. So it doesn't have to mean that every person the player comes across will scream 'Oh no! You're a half-breed!' (you could cut down on specific dialogue for the subrace this way). Only those that can spot what they are.

 

Though of course I would like to see half-breeds implemented with some sort of prejudice (or perhaps the equivalent to a charisma penalty? Since both races that the half-breed is part of may find the mixed appearance unsettling if they don't assume they're the other race. And there's the possibility of them not quite turning out right, I don't imagine all half-breeds would strike a pleasant middle between their two races) as you don't really see this in the IE games when playing as a half-elf. I can't recall if half-orcs had much dialogue specific to them. And maybe half-breeds would get different reactions depending on where they were. As someone mentioned in the region that has a mix of human and elves half-elves probably wouldn't be frowned upon.

 

I'm certainly not going to quibble with having variety, and I also don't have any strong objection to half elves in environments where there are already elves. I've played half elves everal times in other games.

 

To the extent I'm glad PE is going in a different direction, it's because the developers have specified that they're only going to be including 6 races. Including half elves means that one of dwarves, orlans, aumaua or godlike would need to be left out. I wouldn't mind losing dwarves (or for that matter, both elves and half elves), but I think it would be a bit of a missed opportunity if the game cut one of the races that had a little less baggage and that left a little more room for the developers to do something completely new.

[Shades]

Though of course I would like to see half-breeds implemented with some sort of prejudice (or perhaps the equivalent to a charisma penalty? Since both races that the half-breed is part of may find the mixed appearance unsettling if they don't assume they're the other race. And there's the possibility of them not quite turning out right, I don't imagine all half-breeds would strike a pleasant middle between their two races) as you don't really see this in the IE games when playing as a half-elf. I can't recall if half-orcs had much dialogue specific to them. And maybe half-breeds would get different reactions depending on where they were. As someone mentioned in the region that has a mix of human and elves half-elves probably wouldn't be frowned upon.

In Arcanum as a Elf you wouldn't be particularily welcome in the dwarf mines, and people would be stand offish in the normal cities (due to elven arrogence) and dwarves the same but reversed. Half orc and half ogre where very disliked/distrusted everywhere, although there where backgrounds that could help with that.

 

It made for some really good and interesting dialogue and question

 

That does sound interesting. I'll have to dig out my Arcanum manual and take a look at trying to play it.

 

 

I'm certainly not going to quibble with having variety, and I also don't have any strong objection to half elves in environments where there are already elves. I've played half elves everal times in other games.

 

To the extent I'm glad PE is going in a different direction, it's because the developers have specified that they're only going to be including 6 races. Including half elves means that one of dwarves, orlans, aumaua or godlike would need to be left out. I wouldn't mind losing dwarves (or for that matter, both elves and half elves), but I think it would be a bit of a missed opportunity if the game cut one of the races that had a little less baggage and that left a little more room for the developers to do something completely new.

 

It only means one race would have to be left out if half-breeds counted as a different race (and if they're really restricted by that number of races). I'm not sure why they would count as a different race. I'm unsure if the godlike even count as a separate race or if they're just subraces within the other races, I'd be happy to see half-breeds treated the same way (as subraces). As I've said they could even use the existing models with the player being able to choose one of the two parent races that they most resemble.

[HereticSaint]

From a logical stand point of if it would be possible, the answer is in some cases it very likely would, examples follow:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid_hybrid

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglon

 

"Looking back millions of years into early human history, current research into human evolution tends to confirm that in some cases, interspecies sexual activity may have been a key part of human evolution. Analysis of the species' genes in 2006 provides evidence that after humans had started to diverge from chimps, interspecies mating between "proto-human" and "proto-chimps" nonetheless occurred regularly enough to change certain genes in the new gene pool:

 

A new comparison of the human and chimp genomes suggests that after the two lineages separated, they may have begun interbreeding... A principal finding is that the X chromosomes of humans and chimps appear to have diverged about 1.2 million years more recently than the other chromosomes. "

 

I'm sure there are more, but I figure that is enough to say, "It could potentially happen". Important part to pay attention to here is this, "Ligers enjoy swimming, which is a characteristic of tigers, and are very sociable like lions. Ligers exist only in captivity because the habitats of the parental species do not overlap in the wild", meaning despite them being completely cut off from one another they still have the capacity to procreate. It's also fallacious to act as if half-races would eventually lead to there only being one race, all you have to do is look at races in today's world. Sure, there are communities where intermingling is blurring the line between racial differences, but there are other areas where racial diversity is as strong as ever.

 

It does pretty much boil down to what Obsidian wants then. As for my personal preference, I would definitely enjoy having half-races.

[NOK222]

So natural contraceptives! LOOOOL.

 

But seriously, this is pretty cool.

[Shades]

From a logical stand point of if it would be possible, the answer is in some cases it very likely would, examples follow:

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Canid_hybrid

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglon

 

"Looking back millions of years into early human history, current research into human evolution tends to confirm that in some cases, interspecies sexual activity may have been a key part of human evolution. Analysis of the species' genes in 2006 provides evidence that after humans had started to diverge from chimps, interspecies mating between "proto-human" and "proto-chimps" nonetheless occurred regularly enough to change certain genes in the new gene pool:

 

A new comparison of the human and chimp genomes suggests that after the two lineages separated, they may have begun interbreeding... A principal finding is that the X chromosomes of humans and chimps appear to have diverged about 1.2 million years more recently than the other chromosomes. "

 

I'm sure there are more, but I figure that is enough to say, "It could potentially happen". Important part to pay attention to here is this, "Ligers enjoy swimming, which is a characteristic of tigers, and are very sociable like lions. Ligers exist only in captivity because the habitats of the parental species do not overlap in the wild", meaning despite them being completely cut off from one another they still have the capacity to procreate. It's also fallacious to act as if half-races would eventually lead to there only being one race, all you have to do is look at races in today's world. Sure, there are communities where intermingling is blurring the line between racial differences, but there are other areas where racial diversity is as strong as ever.

 

It does pretty much boil down to what Obsidian wants then. As for my personal preference, I would definitely enjoy having half-races.

 

This is the type of thing I was thinking of regarding animal half-breeds. And for a pretty well known one you also have the mule (horse-donkey). It's also interesting to note that they don't always seem to be infertile, sometimes the females can produce offspring.

 

I'd really like it if that quote/what someone mentioned Josh Sawyer said on the issue (about there being no half-breeds) isn't something set in stone and that they'll change their minds about it. But I wouldn't be surprised if they don't either. I just think that they could do something interesting with half-breeds if they wanted, rather than simply... not having them.

[Shades]

Heh, I just thought, perhaps we could have an Order of the Chimera (IWD2 reference) requesting half-breeds in the PE setting

[Sedrefilos]

I'd like to see half-dwarves or half-aumaua and stuff.

[rjshae]

So natural contraceptives! LOOOOL.

 

But seriously, this is pretty cool.

That does have a certain cultural connotation, particularly if STDs don't communicate well between the different races. It may lead to some decadent cultures where the most desirable prostitutes are non-human. Long-lived elven consorts could develop their expertise into a political tool for manipulating short-lived and weak-willed humans. After 500 years, an elven Cipher consort may be a beautiful but very dangerous individual with a lot of influence.

[Radwulf]

I'd like to add my view that species are definitely not interbreed-able. Many of these races would have been living in proximity with each other for millennia and if they could breed it would lead to mixed races distinct in themselves which would have to be represented in the world lore. You could have them as being sterile but if you are going to do that when the only reason they are in the world is as flavour so there isn't a great deal of point. They are different species and 'romantic relations' between them should be considered closer to bestiality, physically possible but unproductive and frowned upon.

 

Rather than using half races as a point of contention when it comes to racism and other themes what they could implement instead is that although the different races are distinct from each other physically, reincarnated souls can transfer between the playable species easily (or not so easily; certain species can be suspected of breaking souls through trying to fit them into the wrong container. If a great elvish whole soul was found fractured reincarnated in a dwarf this could be part of the world's racism).

[jezz555]

Well if we assume elves/orcs and humans are roughly as biologically similar as a donkey and a horse, or lion and tiger it's not that unrealistic. But yeah I think I prefer it this way.

Edited November 23, 2012 by jezz555

[Jojobobo]

I actually asked Josh Sawyer about this a while back. Interbreeding between races in Project Eternity is impossible (which actually makes them separate species in modern terms).

Bet that won't stop them getting nasty with one another.

 

Honestly, I'd have liked to see half-breeds - and more than just half-human half-whatever; a half-dwarf half-orlan for example. I've never seen a game where a half-breed had one half that wasn't human, and it would have made an interesting addition. But if it's not in the game then no big.

 

Also this only rules out racial mixing through sexual reproduction, it doesn't mean to say a half-breed couldn't be made as some sort of Frankenstein's monster or through a strange occult blood mixing ritual - still that I would imagine would very much limit such an individual to being an NPC.

[Valci]

This is from a PCgamer Q&A a while back so i don't know if it is still relevant but here it is:

 

T.J. Hafer:

How many cultures/subraces can we expect each race to choose from? Will some have more than others?

 

Josh Sawyer:

we haven't decided on the number of subraces per race, and cultures are separate from races/subraces, so that's even more up in the air. if we do have more subraces for certain races than other, it will not be by a large margin. we want to make the field of choices relatively even.

 

food for thought i guess.

[Cryticus]

When I think about it I would really prefer if Obsidian would not include half-race, but give instead another sub race , or race I mean in the end all halves are always includead because if there are to races then obviously this race will boink each other and have babes, I would prefer if they would said that diffrent races can't inpregnent each other

[Reventine]

It's a shame since there could have been a twist to it in that Elves and humans have difficulty in conceiving a child and very few are brought to term making it generally taboo so to avoid heart break. But those who are born are either looked upon with distain by the old guard elven elite while other younger elves (and some humans)see them as the possible future of their race. But alas.

[Agelastos]

It's a shame since there could have been a twist to it in that Elves and humans have difficulty in conceiving a child and very few are brought to term making it generally taboo so to avoid heart break. But those who are born are either looked upon with distain by the old guard elven elite while other younger elves (and some humans)see them as the possible future of their race. But alas.

 

It would be nice if humans and elves had different numbers of chromosomes, making half-elves semi-infertile. Maybe all half-elven males could be sterile, while some females could still produce offspring when mated with a purebred human or elf. Like mules.

Of course, this isn't how it would be explained in-game.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Agelastos

[GhoulishVisage]

I think it'd be better if the races were genetically incompatible.

Might make for even more racial tension, as well as it being more plausible.

 

Or it could be an interesting situation if half-whatevers were sterile, like mules and other instances where two species mix.

Although I don't think that ALL of the races should be genetically compatible, just humans and one of the other races.

Edited November 23, 2012 by GhoulishVisage

[Tauron]

hmmm, if there will be half elves, and elves are generally these ancient human like beings and they can breed with humans, could PE have it's own classification of species and races. Would that mean that humans are devolved (evolved) elfs? Would dwarfs just be another type of short elfs, just like some humans have "pygme" gene. It is interesting.