[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[Wench]

Those torment pictures bring back memories... of being embarrassed about how terrible they were. Maybe the planes do something to warp perspective and enhance various parts of womens anatomy *shakes head*

 

As far as this game goes, things may end up being a little exaggerated purely because using an overhead cam perspective will dimish the difference between male and female characters. So in order to make female characters look obviously female its possible that they will need to make them *really* female. Hope it doesnt turn out that way though. Would be nice to see a game that does it right. Historically male female equivilance is nonsense of course so whatever they do will be the way they want to do it

[TCJ]

I think men are discriminated against! If a woman isn't in a high position, everyone cries foul, but if a man isn't in a high position nobody cares! Either that or they just don't speak up for fear of the rolling pins.

Edited October 19, 2012 by TCJ

[Jasede]

This thread is hilarious; carry on!

[NerdBoner]

lol threads like these...so pointless.

 

anybody remember BG? bask in the perversion of horny teenage sexual fantasies!!!!

 

 

*gasp* I SEE BOOB PLATE, I SEE CLEAVAGE! OH GOD THE OUTRAGE!!!

[HereticSaint]

Also, for those of you confused about the problem of "realism" and why it matters in games (as in all media), I suggest Nathaniel Chapman's blog post on realism and verisimilitude:

 

http://forums.obsidi...f-expectations/

 

 

If someone chooses to have the men in full armour but the women in bikinimail and stilettos, as many games do, they're contradicting the rules of the world they've created, where it makes no sense why all of the men need to wear full armour but the women somehow don't.

 

Also, big, muscular men are not the equivalent of massively-breasted women in sexual poses and fetish gear. That's an example of false equivalence. The equivalent of big muscular men would be big muscular women.

 

 

http://www.shortpack...lseequivalence/

 

Except, you are literally as wrong as you possibly could be regarding physique. Just because you deem something to be a certain way, feminist, doesn't make it a certain way. The hulking, over exaggerated physique of males -does- bother me, and pretty much everyone I know who plays traditional fantasy/RPG type games. It's even worse when I'm playing a mage/wizard/etc who carries around 20-25 pounds maximum, but when he takes off his robes he has a Conan the Barbarian type physique. Now, before you try to refute that, let me just point out you can't, because that's how -I- feel. All that being said I would rather development time be spent on other things than trying to make ridiculous varieties of body types in an isometric RPG.

Edited October 19, 2012 by HereticSaint

[HeedlessHorseman]

I think the form of gender equality at the end of this video should be in the game:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1wREUcgYgQ

[Grimlorn]

Personally, I'd like some realism when it comes to differences between males and females. For instance, if there is a Strength stat it should be like it is in real life. Say 18 str is the max a male can have then 9 should be the max a female can have since they are only about half as strong as men on average. It ruins my immersion when I see men and women being physically equal with no realistic differences between the genders like in real life.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Elerond]

All that being said I would rather development time be spent on other things than trying to make ridiculous varieties of body types in an isometric RPG.

 

Where would you instead uses 3d artists and animators time? Gear, monsters, enviroment animations or something else?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Elerond

[HereticSaint]

All that being said I would rather development time be spent on other things than trying to make ridiculous varieties of body types in an isometric RPG.

 

Where would you instead uses 3d artist and animators time? Gear, monsters, enviroment animations or something else?

 

Literally all of those instead, including gear, because if you make a ton of different physique types you have to make sure the armor fits on those physique types as well. If I had to choose something above all those others, probably monsters would be my first pick though.

Edited October 19, 2012 by HereticSaint

[Gulliver]

Everyone always forgets the Minoans.

 

I didn't forget them^^. It's pretty much exactly what I meant by "certain administrative roles", in this case priesthood being (almost) exclusively female, with society as a whole being more or less egalitarian.

 

I was making a joke but fine:

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

...did you read the "Archaeology" part?

 

@Joukehainen: I am certain you're aware that your interpretation is neither the only one out there nor the only one who can field some data. I, for one, don't really care.

 

@Grimlorn: 4/10

[LeetMiniWheat]

there's a fine line between looking sexy and slutty, personally i prefer inbetween there. not a fan of the muscular manlike women or full blown armor, some skin is good

 

and ROFL @ that video posted a few above me

[Jasede]

lol threads like these...so pointless.

 

anybody remember BG? bask in the perversion of horny teenage sexual fantasies!!!!

 

 

*gasp* I SEE BOOB PLATE, I SEE CLEAVAGE! OH GOD THE OUTRAGE!!!

It's okay, the fair maiden defense force is here to defend the honor of imaginary women as we speak.

[Grimlorn]

But if there's no cleavage, how will I be emotionally engaged?

[Joukehainen]

Except, you are literally as wrong as you possibly could be regarding physique. Just because you deem something to be a certain way, feminist, doesn't make it a certain way. The hulking, over exaggerated physique of males -does- bother me, and pretty much everyone I know who plays traditional fantasy/RPG type games. It's even worse when I'm playing a mage/wizard/etc who carries around 20-25 pounds maximum, but when he takes off his robes he has a Conan the Barbarian type physique. Now, before you try to refute that, let me just point out you can't, because that's how -I- feel. All that being said I would rather development time be spent on other things than trying to make ridiculous varieties of body types in an isometric RPG.

 

I didn't draw the comic, I referred to it as an explication of making the false equivalence of buff man = scantily clad thin tall blonde in stilettos and DDDs in sexual poses.

 

Neither did I advocate making a ridiculous variety of body types in an isometric RPG. You're very clearly making assumptions on what I've said without actually reading it, so let me quote my first post:

 

I LOVED both the choice of making a dwarven ranger female (not a combo you see often, female dwarf you know - "it's the beards!"); and the look of Cadegund. Both would certainly be attractive by offline human standards, but both look like they could indeed be warriors, and while Sagani is showing skin, it's clearly not done in a gratuitous or objectifying way.

 

I feel, OP, that Obsidian is on the ball with this and we need not worry too much.

 

 

@Joukehainen: I am certain you're aware that your interpretation is neither the only one out there nor the only one who can field some data. I, for one, don't really care.

 

Except those aren't my opinions, those are the conclusions that dozens upon dozens of academics and scholars have come to after decades of research and are generally accepted truths in society.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Joukehainen

[harpoon]

The Drow society has always been considered evil and abhorrent. Wasn't it Buck Rodgers that proposed the preposterous idea of a matriarchy in the 70's? Only about 40 years ago.

 

Actually much earlier. First fiction attempt I know of was in the 1800s, but I don't remember the exact details despite having written a paper on it...

 

"Herland", perhaps?

[rjshae]

Personally, I'd like some realism when it comes to differences between males and females. For instance, if there is a Strength stat it should be like it is in real life. Say 18 str is the max a male can have then 9 should be the max a female can have since they are only about half as strong as men on average. It ruins my immersion when I see men and women being physically equal with no realistic differences between the genders like in real life.

This may be so for the general population, but the party members are expected to be unique. Yes, 18 Str is very high for a male and extraordinarily so for a female, but so what? The player should be free to choose exceptional examples out of the population. If you don't like it, go to the adventurer's hall and apply your own limits. Problem solved.

Edited October 19, 2012 by rjshae

[Gyor]

Maybe PE will become an example for other games in this regard. One can only hope.

 

I really hope effing not, was Planescape considered one of the worst games ever?

Wasn't its plot amazing, isn't it being lauded everywhere as Black Isles/"Obsidians" best game, possibly the best storytelling in a CRPG whatsoever and doesn't even the OP even have a character portrait stemming from there as an avatar?

 

Quoting from that games vision document:

“I don‟t wear pants! Now, that’s entertainment.”

“babes,” as in, “TRUCKLOADS OF.”

Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that make the player go “wow.” There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes. These babes will be present without nipple-age and will all regrettably behave within the TSR Code of Ethics.

and more babes

Babes: Think babes. Then think more babes.

 

How the hell does "feminism" or breast size come in to play as to how well written some characters are (or on a larger scale a game) or how good their characterization is, is it somehow "in" now to discriminate against women with big breasts?

 

And am I the only one to find it absolutely hilarious that people came out in droves to complain about how "unrealistic" this is, despite the armor being perfectly fine in the function it is supposed to accomplish:

 

But nobody seems to be complaining about a geriartric lacking any sort of body armor and apparently only fighting with his fists being "unrealistic" at all?

 

Were all the complaints about "realism" even only a ruse to push through feminist agenda yet again, mayhaps and why should that now be relevant to game design?

 

This is the best post on this subject I've ever read and exposes the lie that this about realism.

 

Planescape had the best art of any game and yes I enjoyed the sex appeal, loved it truely I did.

 

Theirs a minority demographic that tries this kind of stuff, with complaints approate armour and other body times and too much sexual objectification.

 

What it ends up being is your only allowed to have the sexuality we allow or agree with.

 

What it amounts to is censorship and that is something I oppose.

 

Also note in practice its a sales killer. Example when Igles put those ugly shorts on Supergirl sales dropped. During the Kelly era sales were 44,000 to 85,000 and in the Gates/Igles era they dropped 34,000 thousand sales.

 

It also reminds me of the Spellplague as strange as that sound. A minority bitched loudly about the realms, Wotc listen tried to appease these people and watched sales and interest dry up. Now we have the Sundering to fix it.

 

Look having some people we various body types is fine where it makes sense, I'm not unreasonable, but there room for girls that resemble the ones in planescape as well.

 

I sorry, but this kind of stuff gets on my nerves. I'm a heavy guy, not skinny, but I don't let it get to me everything I see a buff guy. I don't accuse him of having peck implants ;D

 

I remember this girl in highschool she was very heavy, but she always dated really good looking guys, many of whom could cook too, but not once did she complain about realistic body armour or boob plate She just had a good attidude and good humour.

 

Cade looks way better in "Boob Plate" then the other, sorry but its true. Some of us don't hyper anaylze the armour for flaws in the realism.

 

In history the only reason boob plate didn't exist is because women were not allowed to be soldiers at that time, so women who were had to conceal there gender, or they'd be murdered (No armour invovled, but an example would be the female pope, when they found out she was a women she was stoned to death sadly).

 

If this society has equality of gender then some women warriors might wish to express that instead of hiding it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gyor]

Also, for those of you confused about the problem of "realism" and why it matters in games (as in all media), I suggest Nathaniel Chapman's blog post on realism and verisimilitude:

 

http://forums.obsidi...f-expectations/

 

 

If someone chooses to have the men in full armour but the women in bikinimail and stilettos, as many games do, they're contradicting the rules of the world they've created, where it makes no sense why all of the men need to wear full armour but the women somehow don't.

 

Also, big, muscular men are not the equivalent of massively-breasted women in sexual poses and fetish gear. That's an example of false equivalence. The equivalent of big muscular men would be big muscular women.

 

 

http://www.shortpack...lseequivalence/

 

Except, you are literally as wrong as you possibly could be regarding physique. Just because you deem something to be a certain way, feminist, doesn't make it a certain way. The hulking, over exaggerated physique of males -does- bother me, and pretty much everyone I know who plays traditional fantasy/RPG type games. It's even worse when I'm playing a mage/wizard/etc who carries around 20-25 pounds maximum, but when he takes off his robes he has a Conan the Barbarian type physique. Now, before you try to refute that, let me just point out you can't, because that's how -I- feel. All that being said I would rather development time be spent on other things than trying to make ridiculous varieties of body types in an isometric RPG.

 

So a guy with man boobs is the equivlant of a women with big breasts? Yeah as a guy who could sport some cleavage I can tell you it really isn't :D

[RaccoonTOF]

While this might be an interesting idea, it is not reasonably possible without changing human biology or introducing some other factor (i.e. only females being able to use magic) that makes it possible for such a society to exist. So for the most part, truly matriarchal societies are probably limited to non-humans.

 

The Berbers, the Sardinians, in many ways the Iroquois, much of the Celtic political and economic system(s), and others are all examples from our own history. It also depends on exactly how you define "truly matriarchal" - true, due to "human nature" as it has been expressed through our own history, most of the matriarchal societies are not in fact "female dominated, male subservient" societies in a direct reversal of traditional patriarchy...instead they tend to be much more egalitarian societies, in most cases doing away with much of the hierarchy and "dominance" reflected in patriarchal societies, with the women tending to be the focal point of political, economic, and social issues without "lording it over" the men. One of the key factors which has seemed to lead to a stronger chance of matriarchal society is less physical conflict with "outsiders" (though some matriarchal societies are still strongly aggressive within their own society) and abundance of "expansion space" reducing territorial conflicts. The strong presence of both of the latter in the "focal points" of "civilized humanity" over our history has indeed contributed greatly to the dominance of patriarchal societies, but they are most definitely cultural aspects, and not biological ones (though generally the bias-shift does come about due to the biological factors such as greater average male strength, the ability of a man to father children among many women simultaneously, etc, the core cause which makes those differences "superior" is a cultural one).

 

In my own examples I gave above, one of the campaigns was a very egalitarian society much as would be represented by the human-historical examples which we have. The "female-dominant" example which so shocked my poor egotistical male warrior player was admittedly however based on women - through "spiritual" ties which were also caused/the cause of their ability for childbirth - being the most dominant "magic" wielders, thus making it definitely a case of a distinct power dynamic which was "flipped" from the traditional world view. There are a number of other ways of approaching the situation which I've yet to explore as well, including such things as a non-militaristic society where the only advantage of the "extra strength" of men is in hard labor functions, freeing the women for the administrative/intellectual roles, "psionic" type campaigns where the stereotypically more empathic women have an advantage, through to real biological role reversals which cause a society similar to that of a pride of lions - along with drastically lower quantities of adult males through either natural elimination in "combat" situations, and/or biological or cultural reductions in male birth rates.

 

Edit: ACK! Thread merge while posting...now I need to go read all the merged posts...

Edited October 19, 2012 by RaccoonTOF

[Gulliver]

Except those aren't my opinions, those are the conclusions that dozens upon dozens of academics and scholars have come to after decades of research and are generally accepted truths in society.

 

Your interpretation, not your opinion. Your interpretation as in "the interpretation you favor".

The notion that any absence of women/... in positions of power is due to oppression and institutionalized discrimination is in no way accepted by a majority of scholars (except maybe by people in gender studies) or by a majority of society.

[Joukehainen]

What it amounts to is censorship and that is something I oppose.

 

I'd like to quote a rapper's comments on the issue with comedian Daniel Tosh, because it applies here:

 

"This is not a free speech issue. As a comic (or poet, or rapper, or singer or whatever), you have the right to say whatever the hell you want to say on stage. But your audience has that same right. If you say something hurtful or offensive, they can heckle you, call you out, start internet campaigns to ban you from clubs, whatever. And you have to deal with that.

 

No one is trying to make it illegal for a comic to say offensive ****; we’re just trying to hold you accountable. That’s a huge difference, and people hiding behind the “free speech” argument are really missing the point. I want you to take chances on stage, to challenge people, even to deal with hecklers harshly—but there are a million ways to do that without joking about something that is extremely hurtful to so many people. Less offensive ways, sure, but funnier ways too."

 

In that same vein, there are many ways to make a character, and succumbing to sexist, racist, or offensive stereotypes that represent a discriminated group in society (that's in OUR world, not in the diegetic game world) are neither clever nor fulfilling. For example, out of all the sorts of characters the makers of the recent Transformers movies could chose to make for a transformer, they chose, among others, to make two absurdly racist stereotypes. It's lazy and caters to the lowest common denominator.

 

In the same way, a persistent representation of women in games as sexual objects is poor fare for as deep and expansive a genre as RPGs can/should be.

 

And allow me to also point out, yet again, that I think there is no need to worry too much about the representation of female characters in respect to PE, because the team looks to be doing a great job with it.

 

And I love PS:T! It's absurdly proportioned codex art for many of the female NPCs, however, had absolutely nothing to do with its brilliance as an RPG, and frankly it's pretty concerning that you would make that connection.

 

 

So a guy with man boobs is the equivlant of a women with big breasts? Yeah as a guy who could sport some cleavage I can tell you it really isn't :D

 

No, she didn't draw a guy with manboobs. Take another look at the comic.

[UncleBourbon]

On the whole, I'm a bit against boob plate or gender specific gear, with the exception of certain specific items. And example would be disguises or somesuch. A large reason for that is that in any given medeival like society, one gender is probably dominant in the combat rolls. Whether it be male or female, the fact is any streamlined equipment is going to try to be appealing to the majority and bearable by the minority. In terms of character setups, I'm against and alteration of maximum ability scores. I'm not so against genders imparting ability bonuses/penalties like certain races do in D&D, something like +2 strength or constitution for males, and +2 dexterity or charisma for women. I'm all for NPCs who are biased against/for certain gender charnames, and the same goes for situations.

I've played monks in a few tabletop games, and their dress code always varied by personality and region. In one, we were travelling in a desert are and my character was from a colder, northern region - it made a good bit of sense that he chose to discard his robes. I had one character who worse these ragged wanderer robes for most of the campaign, and was gifted with fine silk robes by a merchant he had frequent dealings with.

 

As to women being upset over the presentations of females in game, I can only say that yes, in the era of Duke Nukem 3D there was a good bit of fanservice - but for the most part, the audience was male dominated or near-exclusive, and violence and sex are deeply intertwined in the human psyche. I think in recent years there has been a bit of divergence of some games presenting ALL characters with unrealistic proportions and representations - XCOM comes to mind. The thread here about beuty goes into this as well. There seem to be another series of games with very little focus given to character detail - Fallout 3 and New Vegas had strippers and such, yeah, but most characters shared a gender-specific body mesh, which was flattering sometimes, but not penthouse material. Dragon Age, both origins and the sequel, seem pretty pathetic in sexuality as a whole to me - Zevran was a decent character, but oversexed (explained in character, but still) just like Isabela. Should all female NPCs look like they had their chest enchanted? Probably not. Should genders be represented as completely and fully equal? I don't know. In a setting where slavery exists and the major deity has stopped talking to his priest, and moral ambiguity is abound, I imagine there is probably a good bit of strife and sectarian violence along gender, racial and cultural lines.

Edited October 19, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Joukehainen]

Your interpretation, not your opinion. Your interpretation as in "the interpretation you favor".

The notion that any absence of women/... in positions of power is due to oppression and institutionalized discrimination is in no way accepted by a majority of scholars (except maybe by people in gender studies) or by a majority of society.

 

Yes, in fact, it is, which is why we have discrimination ombudsmen, why we have laws against a variety of related issues, why we have a UN charter of rights that discusses institutionalised discrimination against, among other groups, women, and how to combat it, global non-profit organizations that address the problems that arise from said systematic discrimination, history books that discuss this, etc etc. No one can deny the existence of institutional discrimination, we are literally swimming in scientific evidence for it. Or, well, you could deny it, people can deny anything with overwhelming scientific evidence supporting it, from evolution to the holocaust, but it doesn't make them look particularly good.

[NOK222]

It's funny how no matter how intelligent and rational the argument against silly armor presents itself, people will cry "femernist agendah! Don't a-cave in Obsidiahn!"

 

I slam my head every time I enter this tread.

[Grimlorn]

Personally, I'd like some realism when it comes to differences between males and females. For instance, if there is a Strength stat it should be like it is in real life. Say 18 str is the max a male can have then 9 should be the max a female can have since they are only about half as strong as men on average. It ruins my immersion when I see men and women being physically equal with no realistic differences between the genders like in real life.

This may be so for the general population, but the party members are expected to be unique. Yes, 18 Str is very high for a male and extraordinarily so for a female, but so what? The player should be free to choose exceptional examples out of the population. If you don't like it, go to the adventurer's hall and apply your own limits. Problem solved.

So we have to have below average males that are more or less equal with extraordinary women, for equality? That sounds like punishing men for being physically stronger than women. That's not fair or realistic.