Fluffle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Except that Obsidian asks for donators to give their opinions. They are soliciting wants, likes and dislikes. They repeatedly say how happy they are with being able to communicate directly with us and being able to base decisions on the backers and not on the publishers. So, when you advocate "let Obsidian make the game they want" as a way to make someone NOT talk about a given feature... you are advocating AGAINST what Obsidian explicitly wants. Q.E.D. But I'm afraid you demonstrated nothing. How does Obsidian asking for opinions make an opinion invalid? "let Obsidian make the game they want" is a perfect response to Obsidian asking about opinions. It means "I trust you and believe that the game will be better if you develop it the way you indended." Furthermore, why would saying "let Obsidian make the game they want" automatically mean that you don't want someone to "talk about a given feature?". If I say it, I don't mind that the discussion continues after that. I stated my opinion. That's all I wanted to do. Yep, that what I tried to say, I think you explained it better than me xD "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Except that Obsidian asks for donators to give their opinions. They are soliciting wants, likes and dislikes. They repeatedly say how happy they are with being able to communicate directly with us and being able to base decisions on the backers and not on the publishers. So, when you advocate "let Obsidian make the game they want" as a way to make someone NOT talk about a given feature... you are advocating AGAINST what Obsidian explicitly wants. Q.E.D. But I'm afraid you demonstrated nothing. How does Obsidian asking for opinions make an opinion invalid? "let Obsidian make the game they want" is a perfect response to Obsidian asking about opinions. It means "I trust you and believe that the game will be better if you develop it the way you indended." Furthermore, why would saying "let Obsidian make the game they want" automatically mean that you don't want someone to "talk about a given feature?". If I say it, I don't mind that the discussion continues after that. I stated my opinion. That's all I wanted to do. You are right here. But many times it doesnt end with that, a lot of times that quote is followed with something that is attacking the OP. Which ends up not being constructive. By starting this thread i was merely trying to bring some awareness to trends i saw on the forums recently is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norolim Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Honestly couldnt have put it any better. It is perfectly ok to disagree. Thats is actually what makes conversation exciting and engaging. It wouldnt be much of a conversation if we all agreed on the same thing. Just like if someone doesnt agree with what i posted. I value your opinion, but i would also like to know why it is not agreed with. That way i can better understand where you are coming from. I already know what i like so it is interesting to know what others think and like as well. I just prefer conversation on the forums that has something to offer. Something that might make me think about my own opinion and maybe think twice, even if afterwards i still dont agree, it made me think. But hey, thats just how i like things I see. In that case, you meant that "No, because no!" replies are something you think is bad for discussions. Agreed. You are right here. But many times it doesnt end with that, a lot of times that quote is followed with something that is attacking the OP. Which ends up not being constructive. By starting this thread i was merely trying to bring some awareness to trends i saw on the forums recently is all. Agreed again. Attacking OP just for bringing up an idea is not the way to go. You should insted say why you think it's a bad idea. Edited October 18, 2012 by norolim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasede Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) When there's a dumb idea it's important to speak out against it. Isn't there a Latin saying that translates into "He who says nothing agrees?" Don't answer that, there is. There's plenty of terrible ideas here a lot of us completely loathe and if there were not one negative comment about those ideas it'd look to someone reading the forum as if everyone was okay with that idea. Well, I say no to horrid ideas. The line must be drawn here! This far! And no further! Edited October 18, 2012 by Jasede 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebuchadnezzar Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I honestly hope Obsidian does not take into consideration anything the fans say, other than a few special exceptions. Too late. That's how we got the mega-dungeon, player house, paladins, bards, and stronghold. I only hope they listened to the pet flying monkey idea. This is true, and I do believe it worked out well for the Kick-starter campaign, but i was talking more in terms of other issues such as game-play mechanics and romances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kymriana Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'll just copy-paste this here... since it appears to be relevant... "The real PROBLEM comes when someone out and out attacks them and is demeaning/rude... because all that happens then is people getting their backs up from feeling belittled and snarling back about it. How is that even remotely conducive to anything except being a trollish jerk to someone who likes something the other person doesn't? Everyone likes different things... and those people are GOING to come to this forum. Being nasty to people because they don't want their 'ilk' on 'their old-school forums' isn't going to drive them off... but it IS going to cause nasty divisions and fighting. I'm ALL for a dialogue of what people would prefer in the game. And that means people being respectful to each other, even if they don't agree or like what the other person wants. I don't agree when someone goes 'the massive dungeon should have no exits and only hardcoooooooore people should be able to do is, RAWR!' but I see why they might want it and just respectfully go 'I'd like it if they had a means to escape every 4-5 levels if you can find it/unlock it, perhaps, and had to fight some to get back down after' as a different idea without going 'that's STUPID and you're a jerk for wanting to do that when not everyone likes something like that'. I guess I just wish people with differing opinions would be less hostile to each other and less 'we don't want you in our clubhouse' to each other. Ya know? Maybe I'm just getting too old. " The key is people knowing how to respectfully and maturely agree to disagree and how to debate without attacking or getting personal with someone with a differing opinion. That's all. The 'anonymity' of the web has removed a LOT of the civilized veneer that debating people in the past had, in my opinion. Which is a pity because it is a lot harder to share ideas when people are forced to be defensive or feel attacked all the time. Yeah, I really am getting too old. /sigh 2 Finishing first is only impressive in a race, my dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 If you think something is a bad idea, then yes you should speak against, but should also explain why you dont agree with the original idea. and as far as "if you dont comment you agree" theory... well the thing on a forum as active as this one is that if no one comments on a thread that they think it "dumb" then that thread will just end up being buried and you wont have to worry about it anyway. But that also defeats the purpose of an open forum. Why not speak out against something you don't agree with. Backing up your opinion is all this thread is talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 When there is a dumb idea. You don't have to call it dumb. It is not dumb anyway. It is just your opinion. There may be people who agree and people who disagree. And for sure you absolutely don't have to say worse things to the one presenting his/her idea. Attacking and insulting somebody who posted a dumb idea (in your opinion)just to make sure the developers will recognize that this idea is dumb when they browse the forum. Now that's dumb, in my opinion. "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merin Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Except that Obsidian asks for donators to give their opinions. They are soliciting wants, likes and dislikes. They repeatedly say how happy they are with being able to communicate directly with us and being able to base decisions on the backers and not on the publishers. So, when you advocate "let Obsidian make the game they want" as a way to make someone NOT talk about a given feature... you are advocating AGAINST what Obsidian explicitly wants. Q.E.D. But I'm afraid you demonstrated nothing. How does Obsidian asking for opinions make an opinion invalid? "let Obsidian make the game they want" is a perfect response to Obsidian asking about opinions. It means "I trust you and believe that the game will be better if you develop it the way you indended." Furthermore, why would saying "let Obsidian make the game they want" automatically mean that you don't want someone to "talk about a given feature?". If I say it, I don't mind that the discussion continues after that. I stated my opinion. That's all I wanted to do. Yep, that what I tried to say, I think you explained it better than me xD Your opinion being "let Obsidian make the game they want" isn't invalid. Telling people to stop asking for things with your reasoning being "let Obsidian make the game they want" isn't valid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you anymore than this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 I have a feeling there is a good bit of us "older" people on here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasede Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm sure we're all old enough not to be hurt by a piece of text on the internet. Are you the cyber bully police? More often than not the sharpest critics do back up their distaste. However, not all the time. Here's why: A) The opinion / suggested seems so ridiculous to their perspective that they believe it was a troll, so they don't reply with more than a snide remark. B) They already explained their stance before-hand and the topic is just yet another repeat regurgitating a topic for the N-th time (romance, anyone?) C) Some opinions are wrong and dumb. This is a fact. What if my opinion was that the sky is red or that shaking babies was the bee's knees? Why treat outright false opinions as anything more than drivel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Except that Obsidian asks for donators to give their opinions. They are soliciting wants, likes and dislikes. They repeatedly say how happy they are with being able to communicate directly with us and being able to base decisions on the backers and not on the publishers. So, when you advocate "let Obsidian make the game they want" as a way to make someone NOT talk about a given feature... you are advocating AGAINST what Obsidian explicitly wants. Q.E.D. But I'm afraid you demonstrated nothing. How does Obsidian asking for opinions make an opinion invalid? "let Obsidian make the game they want" is a perfect response to Obsidian asking about opinions. It means "I trust you and believe that the game will be better if you develop it the way you indended." Furthermore, why would saying "let Obsidian make the game they want" automatically mean that you don't want someone to "talk about a given feature?". If I say it, I don't mind that the discussion continues after that. I stated my opinion. That's all I wanted to do. Yep, that what I tried to say, I think you explained it better than me xD Your opinion being "let Obsidian make the game they want" isn't invalid. Telling people to stop asking for things with your reasoning being "let Obsidian make the game they want" isn't valid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you anymore than this. Since Merin said s/he cannot help me anymore on this. Could anybody else help me please on this? Because I really don't understand. "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieo Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 To me, it depends heavily on the topic and idea proposed... I tend to take a much harder stance of "omg leave it alone, let Obsidian decide" in purely subjective items like.... PLEASE HIRE THIS PERSON TO DO X. Because I honestly don't see any real discussion from something like music that's based purely on taste, and Obsidian has a far, far better frame of reference as they're the ones making the game. Then there are other related threads when Obsidian has their own internal people to worry about first and they're still better positioned to find appropriate people to hire. In terms of high-level systemic decisions like multiplayer or consoles, there's even less reason for "discussion" because a basic business decision was already made, it isn't going to change, and players aren't going to change their own minds either. I mean, that's pretty much off-topic now. In terms of mechanics and other content like races or quest design or party positioning--definitely room for discussion. Mechanics are very complicated and linked to each other, specifically, so ideas around those--especially after Obsidian proposes the big umbrella mechanic, can be interesting, and maybe Obsidian would get an idea or two, with heavy doses of salt. There's really only so much players can say to "help" Obsidian design the game. The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book. Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most? PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE. "But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger) "Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm sure we're all old enough not to be hurt by a piece of text on the internet. Are you the cyber bully police? More often than not the sharpest critics do back up their distaste. However, not all the time. Here's why: A) The opinion / suggested seems so ridiculous to their perspective that they believe it was a troll, so they don't reply with more than a snide remark. B) They already explained their stance before-hand and the topic is just yet another repeat regurgitating a topic for the N-th time (romance, anyone?) C) Some opinions are wrong and dumb. This is a fact. What if my opinion was that the sky is red or that shaking babies was the bee's knees? Why treat outright false opinions as anything more than drivel? You are entitled for believing the sky is red. You are entitled for expressing this opinion. I will simply say "I disagree with you on that" Now, where does the need for additional insult/attack come from? "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norolim Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Telling people to stop asking for things with your reasoning being "let Obsidian make the game they want" isn't valid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you anymore than this. Well, you didn't make your point clear. "let Obsidian make the game they want" doesn't, on it's own, imply that you want people to stop asking about something. But let's drop this argument. I agree with your statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDoomII Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I think that the problem here is that most of the suggestions are out of the scope of the project. "Single-player old style cRPG reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games" If someone comes here and ask for "Dragon Age: Origin"-like features, for example, then most of those features are probably out of scope. If someone comes here asking for multiplayer, that's out of scope too. So to some extent, the ability to say "No! Let Obsidian make the game they want!" should be allowed, and should even be quite right. If someone came here asking for an "arena" game mode, with 3rd person view, I will tell them "No!" for sure. Edited October 18, 2012 by DocDoomII 1 Do you think Pillars of Eternity doesn't have enough Portraits? Submit your vote in this Poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kymriana Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Jasede, you will never have or facilitate a good exchange of ideas or get someone to be open-minded about changing their ideas or opinions if you attack them, are rude, or back them into a corner. You know what happens when you do that? You get ignored, they close down and refuse to listen, and no one gets anywhere in any semblance of a conversation. Being nasty, rude, belittling, and attacking people doesn't help your cause, it just makes you look like a jerk to the person you're going after and others who are reading it. It puts a negative light on what you say to anyone who comes in and sees the conversation, which doesn't help your cause either. I'm not the 'bully police' but I am pointing out logical facts and how the human creature reacts when faced with attacks or calm dialogue. I do not, at any point, see the need to belittle or be rude to someone to make my point. I do not derive any kind of pleasure from putting other people down or being rude/mean to someone that I strongly disagree with. It doesn't get me anywhere, I know they won't listen to me if I do that, and if I'm petty enough to take pleasure in it... I'm the one with a problem then. "Shaking babies is good!" "Well, actually, shaking babies is actually pretty dangerous. Here's why... it can cause internal damage, concussions, bleeding, and lead to the death of the baby." "Shaking babies is good!" "What? You're an evil jerk! WTF is wrong with you!" One makes a point and explains why the stated opinion is not really a good idea. One just attacks the person without offering any kind of advice on why that opinion might not be such a good idea. While it is up to the first person to listen or not, they are more LIKELY to respond to the first than the second. And the first also provides information to anyone else that sees or enters into the conversation. Edited October 18, 2012 by Kymriana 2 Finishing first is only impressive in a race, my dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasede Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) To give a drastic example: Some guy is shooting holes into my leg. I ask him why. It's because he believes that's fun and okay. Do you really want me to say "I disagree!" and leave it at that? If our resistance to certain elements people wish to introduce on these forums wasn't as hostile it'd never be clear just how destructive their suggestions would be not just to our faith in Obsidian but also our enjoyment in RPGs. I'll take a few bruised egos if it means that the point came across loud and clear. Being civil is certainly of value- but only in context. If people begin to present ideas that vehemently oppose what PE was pitched as I feel they need to be told to quit. It's not like they'll listen to reason or arguments- the romance behemoth still rears its ugly head. Edit: Kymriana, your stance assumes they'd be ready to change their opinion in the first place. But that's not the case. It's set in stone, as hundreds of pages of romance ought to have proven. Even if you brought Plato's mythical ideal arguments that can dispel without any doubt why they shouldn't be in the game (romance being just one of many examples) they'd find reasons to dispel them, no matter how invalid. Some people can't be reasoned with. So they need to be told off because if they're not they'll keep on spouting their suggestions with no resistance. Edited October 18, 2012 by Jasede 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I have a feeling there is a good bit of us "older" people on here... You know, I agree and disagree with you on some points. But, that post is hypocritical, sorry. You imply that the way you think makes you somewhat *older*. Said in another way *superior*. That's the kind of attidude that's part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSOCC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 C) Some opinions are wrong and dumb. This is a fact. What if my opinion was that the sky is red or that shaking babies was the bee's knees? Why treat outright false opinions as anything more than drivel? I would say you skipped school the day when they taught you the difference between fact and opinion. 1 Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadrone Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 When there's a dumb idea it's important to speak out against it. Isn't there a Latin saying that translates into "He who says nothing agrees?" Don't answer that, there is. There's plenty of terrible ideas here a lot of us completely loathe and if there were not one negative comment about those ideas it'd look to someone reading the forum as if everyone was okay with that idea. Well, I say no to horrid ideas. The line must be drawn here! This far! And no further! Exactly my thoughts. Sometimes discussing a dumb idea and writing long counterpoints might be the polite thing to do but it's also equally stupid and a waste of everyone's time. Call a spade a spade and lets be done with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norolim Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Since Merin said s/he cannot help me anymore on this. Could anybody else help me please on this? Because I really don't understand. He meant that it's not acceptable to use the "let Obsidian make the game they want" line as a reason for asking someone to shut up. Which is true. Edited October 18, 2012 by norolim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) The act of shooting. And the opinion why he thinks he can do that. Are two very different things. But why the example with shooting in the first place? (Shooting = hurt) You said "I'm sure we're all old enough not to be hurt by a piece of text on the internet." And yet your example with the shooting shows at least to me, that you are indeed hurt by "dumb" ideas from other people. You are that hurt that you cannot even bear it, and then you have to hurt them in return. You equal somebody's else opinion with being shot (mere pain/hurt). Edited October 18, 2012 by Fluffle "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffle Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Since Merin said s/he cannot help me anymore on this. Could anybody else help me please on this? Because I really don't understand. He meant that it's not acceptable to use the "let Obsidian make the game they want" line as a reason for asking someone to shut up. Which is true. Yes it is true. Uhm... I don't see where I have done that? If so I did not mean it that way. :/ "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evdk Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 C) Some opinions are wrong and dumb. This is a fact. What if my opinion was that the sky is red or that shaking babies was the bee's knees? Why treat outright false opinions as anything more than drivel? I would say you skipped school the day when they taught you the difference between fact and opinion. Some opinions are still dumb and wrong. 2 Say no to popamole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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