The "Unofficial" P.E. Relationship/Romance thread

[jarpie]

This brings back the argument me and others have been bringing; it takes the resources from doing the other stuff, such as writing non-romance dialogue and doing other kind of mechanics.

 

As I have said before, I am not against romances like they were done in PS:T but I don't want romances like in Bioware games.

 

Two points:

First, you're making an assumption. We really don't have a definite release date, and noone has allotted the money to development teams, nor are we likely to know when they do. If writing is prioritized, as I feel it should be, the getting a team of writers will make the entire project better. Romances included.

 

Second point:

If the Bioware games are so terrible, what should be done instead? What, in your opinion, is a good example of romances in a game?

 

Edit again: you mentioned PS:T. I haven't played PS in years, but what I remember of the "romance" was very dark and emo. (god, I hate using that term, but it's what comes to mind.) I'm tired of dark and edgy. I can't remember the last time the hero of a game was just that. The goddamned hero. No dark and tragic past, no bleeding wrists love story, no sacrificial end. Just a person that is called up either by a higher power or their own initiative to fight against a rising tide of evil, save the day and maybe, just maybe, find someone that can understand them for who they are and what they've been through, because they shared the same experiences.

 

How about something else what Bioware is doing? This is Obsidian's game, not Bioware's. Have you ever played any games by Obsidian? Is Fallout: New Vegas anything like what Bioware has done?

 

That doesn't have any bearing on what I asked. I'm not comparing the gameplay, I'm using bioware as an example of romances in a game.

 

I can tolerate romances like they were in PS:T for example and I wouldn't be against doing something similar in PE. What most of us are opposing is Bioware-style romances and what at least I'm against are the melodramatic personal drama (like daddy issues as an example, but not limited to) so I would like a game where lot of things are "toned down", or the take is "down to earth".

[Kymriana]

You know, Jarpie, the problem at this point really isn't those of us who want a nice happy medium.... it's the people who come in and throw the 'anyone who wants romance are bio-tards and I don't want to see it in my game' bombs. If everyone agreed that some well-written medium was a reasonable thing and acknowledged that it was in the hands of the writers regardless, this thread would be a lot nicer. But eh... I guess some just find it more fun to throw bombs.

[Estelindis]

I agree with everyone who has said that romance is just one path through relationships with various characters in a game, neither superior nor inferior. It shouldn't get more or less attention than relationships like friendship, rivalry, student/mentor, family, etc. All writing in the game should be well done, each subplot having its own theme and evoking particular feelings, connecting to other subplots, etc. I look forward to romance and all other relationships getting this treatment.

 

A particular problem for romance to avoid is the harem situation where half of all plot-central characters are vying for the PC's romantic attention. However, I also think it's nice to have some choice in romance. To have the best of both worlds in this regard, there could be some romances that are only initiated by the PC. These should not be lampshaded; I think it would be brilliant for the PC to have several conversation options to tell various characters of his/her romantic interest, only to find out they don't feel the same way. Only one or two of these should lead to a fully-developed romantic subplot.

 

There are particular Bioware problems that I would like romances in Project Eternity to avoid. One is ninjamancing - that is, locking a PC into a romance as soon as they show the faintest bit of romantic interest, or even as soon as they're remotely nice to the other character, such that they can't break out of it for a long time or without being a total jerk to the other character. Some of the romances in Mass Effect 1 were a bit like this.

 

Bizarrely (though maybe it's just due to different writing teams), the opposite was sometimes true, where every conversation with the PC's significant other contained an option to break up, usually totally consequence-free. I don't mind if the option to break up is always available (in fact, that's good), but it should have an impact on the relationship. A severed romance state should not be identical to a non-romanced state. The reason for breaking up should have an impact too (though at least DA:O did this well with Alistair; that had plot implications later).

 

Another strange opposite of ninjamance is a situation where your character wants to commit to the significant other but dialogue won't allow it. In Mass Effect 3, I played a character who had romanced one person in Mass Effect 1, nobody in ME2 (because she was waiting for the chance to resume things with the first person), and then was reunited with them in ME3. The ME3 situation was far too tentative. There should have been an option to tell the other person that Shepard loved them, had waited all this time and would never be interested in anyone else, period. Instead, it felt like just having to redo the romance almost (albeit not quite) from the start. Furthermore, a different character who had been a potential romance since ME1, who my Shepard had turned down repeatedly, kept on getting shoved in my face, given much more dialogue, nicer cutscenes, etc... Bioware seemed to be telling me "you should have chosen this one, silly you!" It's one thing if part of the character's writing is that they can't give up being in love with the PC, but the impression I got was much more than someone in the writing staff couldn't give up being in love with the character and felt like everyone else should feel that way too.

 

This may give the impression that I hate Bioware romances, but I think some of them have been great. The romances with Alistair and Morrigan in DA:O are really integrated into the main plot, though if you don't take part in their romances the relationships remain interesting and the characters are still plot-central. For the most part, I've even enjoyed the ones where I've seen serious flaws. But some of those flaws... No need or desire to see the same in Obsidian. Not that I think they would write that way, necessarily; just thought I should say my piece nonetheless.

 

I want the romances from PS:T and KOTOR2 to serve as models for Obsidian in this case. A more subtle and complicated kind of romance.

Not so much in the case of KotOR2, please. Certainly, the example of Mira not being interested was great. But my female Exile liked Atton only for the game to decide she liked Disciple. Disciple... He was such a wet, limp character that even I, who genuinely enjoyed playing romances with such notoriously shiny, lawful (and, at times, annoying) guys as Anomen and Casavir, rebelled in revulsion. Disciple was a bridge too far. Neither the Atton nor Disciple romance was properly finished anyway, what with the game not being properly finished.

 

On that note... Please, if romances are going to be written, let them be finished in an interesting, satisfying manner! This doesn't have to mean flowers and rainbows, though I think it should be possible for at least one romance to have a non-heartbreaking ending... Just let the storytelling threads actually be tied rather than left dangling! I don't mean that every little thing should be wrapped up; of course it's good to leave material for sequels. But complete cliffhangers, unless done really well, are evil and wrong. Well, actually, they're still evil and wrong then, but at least there's good writing to console one!

 

I get that a lot of the "please finish X, Obsidian!" stuff won't apply in Project Eternity because they don't have to dance to a publisher's whim, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Estelindis

[Undecaf]

I want Lars Von Trier's Antichrist or Takashi Miike's Audition to be the guideline for PE romances.

 

Seriously though. I (still) don't want player romances in the game. They just don't work in games like this. Never have. And likely never will. If the romance is not tied in some way to the crux of the storyline, it merely wastes time in an (usually) awkward and inane manner that merely causes headshakes and ultimately adds nothing worthwhile ("Romance completed", ok, now what?)

 

To do these kinds of things well requires commitment from the game and a lot of effort to create. And the way I see it, it's too big a deal to do wholesale, and if not done so, too pointless to waste time on just to pander to some (and possibly ruin an otherwise fine NPC).

Edited October 18, 2012 by Undecaf

[Wolar]

Estelindis.. ..Very well put.

[Merin]

For the rest of my life I'm going to have visions of him having a brilliant story scenario pop into his head whilst he screams "Wooo" to himself over and over.

 

He was feeling no pain that night...

[evdk]

For the rest of my life I'm going to have visions of him having a brilliant story scenario pop into his head whilst he screams "Wooo" to himself over and over.

 

He was feeling no pain that night...

I bet he was feeling a lot of pain the morning after.

[jarpie]

You know, Jarpie, the problem at this point really isn't those of us who want a nice happy medium.... it's the people who come in and throw the 'anyone who wants romance are bio-tards and I don't want to see it in my game' bombs. If everyone agreed that some well-written medium was a reasonable thing and acknowledged that it was in the hands of the writers regardless, this thread would be a lot nicer. But eh... I guess some just find it more fun to throw bombs.

 

They exist because there are people on the other side going "We want romances and melodrama! and it should be teh most improtant thing in any game!" and like me, many think that romances have never been very well done. Also quite many are wary that if Obsidian would go "Sure, there will be romances", it would bring that certain crowd who just obsesses about romances and would want basicly all companions be romanceable etc.

 

I think that some people are so used to romances and personal issues being so prominient in Bioware's games that they can't think any other way of doing RPGs, or any other stuff put instead.

[Estelindis]

Estelindis.. ..Very well put.

Thank you! I'm actually amazed anyone read all that...

[Merin]

For the rest of my life I'm going to have visions of him having a brilliant story scenario pop into his head whilst he screams "Wooo" to himself over and over.

 

He was feeling no pain that night...

I bet he was feeling a lot of pain the morning after.

 

For you strongly against-romance people, you can always hope that he wrote a romance the morning after.

[Gecimen]

To those who oppose any kind of romances, know that they sell games and we need the game to sell if we want more games from Obsidian.

So you want the game to do anything in order to sell more? FPS games sell as well, should PE change from it's current goal to become a MW clone?

 

Where did I say "anything"? We funded a cRPG and we are discussing the inclusion of romance. You come up with Modern Warfare clones. If you rather support a FPS than a cRPG with romance, then this is seriously the wrong forum for you.

[evdk]

To those who oppose any kind of romances, know that they sell games and we need the game to sell if we want more games from Obsidian.

So you want the game to do anything in order to sell more? FPS games sell as well, should PE change from it's current goal to become a MW clone?

 

Where did I say "anything"? We funded a cRPG and we are discussing the inclusion of romance. You come up with Modern Warfare clones. If you rather support a FPS than a cRPG with romance, then this is seriously the wrong forum for you.

Well I took part in funding a cRPG precisely because I wanted the devs to avoid making design decisions on the basis of increasing sales numbers. I (rather selfishly probably) expect a good game and can't give a damn how well it will sell afterward, that would only be an added bonus, not a necessity.

[Ruka]

I still don't see the problem with romance if it's done correctly

[Kymriana]

You know, Jarpie, the problem at this point really isn't those of us who want a nice happy medium.... it's the people who come in and throw the 'anyone who wants romance are bio-tards and I don't want to see it in my game' bombs. If everyone agreed that some well-written medium was a reasonable thing and acknowledged that it was in the hands of the writers regardless, this thread would be a lot nicer. But eh... I guess some just find it more fun to throw bombs.

 

They exist because there are people on the other side going "We want romances and melodrama! and it should be teh most improtant thing in any game!" and like me, many think that romances have never been very well done. Also quite many are wary that if Obsidian would go "Sure, there will be romances", it would bring that certain crowd who just obsesses about romances and would want basicly all companions be romanceable etc.

 

I think that some people are so used to romances and personal issues being so prominient in Bioware's games that they can't think any other way of doing RPGs, or any other stuff put instead.

 

The thing is... even if that is what they want, it's just them. The writers here have a track-record of how they write and, without a big name publisher forcing anything on them, are going to do what they want. Saying 'we would like romance' gives them an indication that whatever avenue they choose to go in that field has been requested. Just because people who enjoy a more 'robust' romance option say they want them isn't going to do diddly to the writers who were given the ability to do a game the way THEY want thanks to the kickstarter. So, really, those who come in sighing over more 'robust' options are just making noise and not really harming anyone. The real PROBLEM comes when someone out and out attacks them and is demeaning/rude... because all that happens then is people getting their backs up from feeling belittled and snarling back about it. How is that even remotely conducive to anything except being a trollish jerk to someone who likes something the other person doesn't?

 

Everyone likes different things... and those people are GOING to come to this forum. Being nasty to people because they don't want their 'ilk' on 'their old-school forums' isn't going to drive them off... but it IS going to cause nasty divisions and fighting.

 

I'm ALL for a dialogue of what people would prefer in the game. And that means people being respectful to each other, even if they don't agree or like what the other person wants. I don't agree when someone goes 'the massive dungeon should have no exits and only hardcoooooooore people should be able to do is, RAWR!' but I see why they might want it and just respectfully go 'I'd like it if they had a means to escape every 4-5 levels if you can find it/unlock it, perhaps, and had to fight some to get back down after' as a different idea without going 'that's STUPID and you're a jerk for wanting to do that when not everyone likes something like that'.

 

I guess I just wish people with differing opinions would be less hostile to each other and less 'we don't want you in our clubhouse' to each other. Ya know?

 

Maybe I'm just getting too old.

[Gorth]

Thread pruned a bit. Rather than locking it, I think it's time to address individuals privately...

[kenup]

To those who oppose any kind of romances, know that they sell games and we need the game to sell if we want more games from Obsidian.

So you want the game to do anything in order to sell more? FPS games sell as well, should PE change from it's current goal to become a MW clone?

 

Where did I say "anything"? We funded a cRPG and we are discussing the inclusion of romance. You come up with Modern Warfare clones. If you rather support a FPS than a cRPG with romance, then this is seriously the wrong forum for you.

Where did I say I liked FPS? That's a strawman and it doesn't matter If I do or not. The point is, why should the writer or combat designer etc change their scope just to sell? Your post suggests that romances should be included, simply on the fact that they attract buyers.

 

 

And on an off note, I like how you people call us totalitarians and a lot of other things that might be considered offensive. Yet you use ad hominems and strawman arguments

[Gecimen]

To those who oppose any kind of romances, know that they sell games and we need the game to sell if we want more games from Obsidian.

So you want the game to do anything in order to sell more? FPS games sell as well, should PE change from it's current goal to become a MW clone?

 

I think asking for well written romance dialogues between at least a few characters of different gender is far from anything. Hyperbole is bad.

 

On top of that, if they have to sacrifice small things for them to sell MANY more copies, then the answer is yes. Because I want sequals. Obviously there's a line, but you rather exaggerate.

Not everything has to have a direct sequel, but aside from that,

 

No good writer makes sacrifices for the masses. They write what they want, and those that matter love it.

 

You're part of a mass of naysayers in this case and you ask the P:E writers to sacrifice romance for other things. Then you come and accuse people of the same thing.

What you fail to understand is we're not asking the next Fifa to include romance. What we are asking is a mature cRPG to include romance because mature topics include romance amongst other concepts.

[Ieo]

You know, Jarpie, the problem at this point really isn't those of us who want a nice happy medium.... it's the people who come in and throw the 'anyone who wants romance are bio-tards and I don't want to see it in my game' bombs. If everyone agreed that some well-written medium was a reasonable thing and acknowledged that it was in the hands of the writers regardless, this thread would be a lot nicer. But eh... I guess some just find it more fun to throw bombs.

 

It's both ends of the bell curve, really. There are people who insist that romances are the height of "meaningful deep" character development, when that's not true at all (in entertainment and life) and thus demand (no, really, some do) a large proportion of character content be earmarked for only that. Then there are people who cannot stand the inclusion of any lovey-dovey for lack of realism, pandering to (insert audience type), etc.

 

Now, I think there has to be a reasonable compromise, but I will admit that actually talking to one of those people in the former group, in person, pissed me off enough that would fall squarely into the latter end of the bell curve. Holy crud. Thank goodness she is not the target audience for this game, but I really could never abide by... that.... (she wanted every companion be romanceable and bi, or at least one be pansexual, and there should be a cheat to skip all combat.... ).

 

Please save all of us, Obsidian!

[evdk]

mature topics include romance amongst other concepts.

"Mature topics" is a meaningless buzzword, made even more meaningless by constant overuse by people demanding inclusion of tasteless crap (which does not necessarily mean romances, mind you)

Edited October 18, 2012 by evdk

[Ruka]

You know, Jarpie, the problem at this point really isn't those of us who want a nice happy medium.... it's the people who come in and throw the 'anyone who wants romance are bio-tards and I don't want to see it in my game' bombs. If everyone agreed that some well-written medium was a reasonable thing and acknowledged that it was in the hands of the writers regardless, this thread would be a lot nicer. But eh... I guess some just find it more fun to throw bombs.

(she wanted every companion be romanceable and bi, or at least one be pansexual, and there should be a cheat to skip all combat.... ).

 

Please save all of us, Obsidian!

 

Who said this?

[jarpie]

To those who oppose any kind of romances, know that they sell games and we need the game to sell if we want more games from Obsidian.

So you want the game to do anything in order to sell more? FPS games sell as well, should PE change from it's current goal to become a MW clone?

 

I think asking for well written romance dialogues between at least a few characters of different gender is far from anything. Hyperbole is bad.

 

On top of that, if they have to sacrifice small things for them to sell MANY more copies, then the answer is yes. Because I want sequals. Obviously there's a line, but you rather exaggerate.

Not everything has to have a direct sequel, but aside from that,

 

No good writer makes sacrifices for the masses. They write what they want, and those that matter love it.

 

You're part of a mass of naysayers in this case and you ask the P:E writers to sacrifice romance for other things. Then you come and accuse people of the same thing.

What you fail to understand is we're not asking the next Fifa to include romance. What we are asking is a mature cRPG to include romance because mature topics include romance amongst other concepts.

 

Not all mature fiction include romance at all.

[Loranc]

By adding in romance there is nothing that would have to be sacrificed. There are no development constraints or publisher time frames. They have more than enough time to make this game wonderful. I don't understand the argument that if they added x they'd have to lose y, truth is there is no give/take here. They have the money, the time, and the means to add as much or as little as they want to this game.

[Kymriana]

Haha, the thing is, Ieo, it really isn't a big deal for her to say that's what she wants. Because she is just saying it. We all KNOW that isn't what the writers at Obsidian do, have done, or are even remotely thinking of going. Shaking your head at the screen and then going 'Yeah, I don't really like that idea... I'd rather it be X Y Z instead' nets a better result than 'u r such a biotard, go play sims and get offa our forums'. She isn't going to go anywhere if she doesn't want to and being nasty to her isn't going to net anything except making her defensive or aggressive back and/or annoying a poor Mod who might have to come in and see what the trouble is about.

 

It's just agreeing to massively disagree without being nasty to one another is all... ya know? :\

[Snerf]

This is not a dating simulator. If they want romances between npcs or salty pirates away on the high seas for long months, well that's one thing. But the last thing PE needs is to degenerate into an adolescent vehicle aiming to satisfy lonely people who want their player characters to awkwardly flirt for a few minutes and then totally do it. Forcing romances into the game to tick a bioware created expectation box would be a poor choice.

 

If someone's enjoyment is based on the artificial relationship factor, I would strongly recommend any one of a thousand creepy Japanese dating "games".

[Ieo]

You know, Jarpie, the problem at this point really isn't those of us who want a nice happy medium.... it's the people who come in and throw the 'anyone who wants romance are bio-tards and I don't want to see it in my game' bombs. If everyone agreed that some well-written medium was a reasonable thing and acknowledged that it was in the hands of the writers regardless, this thread would be a lot nicer. But eh... I guess some just find it more fun to throw bombs.

(she wanted every companion be romanceable and bi, or at least one be pansexual, and there should be a cheat to skip all combat.... ).

 

Please save all of us, Obsidian!

 

Who said this?

 

A friend IRL. Who has never actually played a CRPG in her life, and I'm careful to point out that companion interaction takes up like a third of balanced game content (thirds combat, world interaction, companion interaction), and earmarking a substantial amount of content when we have only 8 characters is plain unfair and unnecessary... All the arguments have been made already, but boy. Hearing her talk and get all animated "The Dragon Age romances were the best part of the game!" (Uh, if the rest of the game was crap, I suppose you might think that way...)

 

By adding in romance there is nothing that would have to be sacrificed. There are no development constraints or publisher time frames. They have more than enough time to make this game wonderful. I don't understand the argument that if they added x they'd have to lose y, truth is there is no give/take here. They have the money, the time, and the means to add as much or as little as they want to this game.

 

The time is what I disagree with. But it depends on what level of inclusion.

 

Haha, the thing is, Ieo, it really isn't a big deal for her to say that's what she wants. Because she is just saying it. We all KNOW that isn't what the writers at Obsidian do, have done, or are even remotely thinking of going. Shaking your head at the screen and then going 'Yeah, I don't really like that idea... I'd rather it be X Y Z instead' nets a better result than 'u r such a biotard, go play sims and get offa our forums'. She isn't going to go anywhere if she doesn't want to and being nasty to her isn't going to net anything except making her defensive or aggressive back and/or annoying a poor Mod who might have to come in and see what the trouble is about.

 

It's just agreeing to massively disagree without being nasty to one another is all... ya know? :\

 

You can't ignore someone talking to your face like that--it's easy to ignore someone on the forums.

 

But yes, I agree with you.