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Piccolo

Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

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Being able to come and go as I please without ever having to spend any great deal of time lost in the dungeon kind of trivializes the experience and makes the dungeon seem far less ominous.

You can get ominos feeling only 1st time you play. When next time you know where to go and what to do you get bored feeling of familiarity and have to play only with game mechanics. And so it is onetime-story unreplayable boring way. But absolutely right way is to play with variants of story and mechanics. Geting traped there every single play is cheap, simple and boring cliche.

When my avatar goes to explore megadungeon he doesnt go there blindly to get traped every time, he does some discovery and quests to get some information and backup ways to escape in. He walks there with care and specialist to detect traps. And there can't be someone inside who wait to trap me there, it is not that kind of "my character oriented enemy" dungeon. Cause we dont have that kind of superhero character whom all everywere knows to begin with.

So thats it, traping with no exit is cheap and unlogical.

 

Wait, you're twisting things now. We're talking about shortcuts here that let you exit midway through the dungeon then come back as you please, not alternative exits near the end. I have absolutely no problem with there being multiple exits at the dungeon that are difficult to find.

With Moria we're talking about your bad example of party went for NOT exploring dungeon, but fastest shortcut.

 

And no, you cant have the large and long part of the game for yourself and your interests, cause here is me who is more important :p

Edited by void_dp

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This is turning the endless dungeon into an endless discussion. Which is kinda pointless ;) At least we do know in detail now that Piccolo stands to his beliefs, strange as though they may be. I guess we will see multiple exits anyway, given that many players want them - as has been seen here - and in the end those who are against them will just have to do what was suggested in the first pages of this thread: Ignore them, if they don't like them.

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This is turning the endless dungeon into an endless discussion.

Feel this way too, but also felt inner need of this topic for one more egoistical side of discution, so here i and my opinions are ^_^

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This is turning the endless dungeon into an endless discussion. Which is kinda pointless ;) At least we do know in detail now that Piccolo stands to his beliefs, strange as though they may be. I guess we will see multiple exits anyway, given that many players want them - as has been seen here - and in the end those who are against them will just have to do what was suggested in the first pages of this thread: Ignore them, if they don't like them.

I agree, this discussion isn't going anywhere.

 

As I said on the last page, I don't even care that much anyway. Even if they go with multiple exits, i'll still look forward to the game and to exploring the dungeon. :) I'm not one of these gamers who throws a hissy-fit when a feature doesn't go their way.

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Does anyone remember ruby weapon from ff7? I want when I comete this dungeon to feel like an achievement when I finish it, I want to feel that same feeling of accomplishment when I first and only time I ever took that ruby weapon down.

I havent played bg or iwd which I plan to soon remedy when I actually get some back since I blew all my money on project eternity, so ill use the ff series as a crutch for my examples. Mind u the old sprite ff games :) in the old ff games was riddled with massive deep dungeons that only had an entrance and ending, no shortcuts. You manned up and grinded ur way thru and hopefully there was save points nearby or else u had to go thru levels again. I believe some of the newer ff games gave u scrolls that teleported u to Towns but u had to start the dungeon ALL over again with the exceptions of the mini bosses.

 

Thats what I want. I want my old massive dungeons that felt like an accomplishment when u finished them. The dungeons in tes never gave me that feeling because there was always shortcuts, and if theres a shortcut, yes its up to us to use them but u also gotta think that if theres shortcuts then the devs are gonna plan and develope with those shortcuts in mind. Dammit im tired of selfgimping myself for a challenge, I want to play the game likes its meant to be played and be challenged without having to self gimp myself and take away from my enjoyment.

Yes ruby weapon was a bitch but it was totally optional. There was no shortcuts or anything, it was a situation u had to man up and conquer or be conquered. Yes it was difficult to where I only was able to do it once, but dammit that gold chocobo and the feeling I had when I conquered something that pushed me to my limits was ****ing awesome to where I look back with fond memorys today.

Thats why I want the dungeon to be a massive dungeon amd feel like a massive dungeon. Because cmon, some of the greatest moments in the old games was stuff that not everyone was able to do, they didnt cater to the masses, no it challenged the masses to learn and adapt.

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Thats why I want the dungeon to be a massive dungeon amd feel like a massive dungeon. Because cmon, some of the greatest moments in the old games was stuff that not everyone was able to do, they didnt cater to the masses, no it challenged the masses to learn and adapt.

 

Considering the main complaint most people have about modern RPGs is that they make everything too accessible and easy....it seems odd that most people on this thread are arguing to make it accessible and easy..

I dont want a constant grind, I'd like every level to feel different and have different challenges, but I would like one....just one... huge inescapable dungeon in a modern RPG

 

but I've bought the game now I trust obsidian to deliver....whichever way they go..

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This is turning the endless dungeon into an endless discussion.

The discussion is too casual, participants have exits on every page!

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And I want super cool annoying talking weapon_npc, that can talk from your backpack even unequipped, and also have great backstory and branchy quests, in the end of dungeon. :biggrin:

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There can be much more that one way to achieve tactical difficulty and intense feelings, so okay why don't we use the simplest cliche of "there is no exit" move every single time you play dungeon? So much fun to replay it. :dancing:

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While it would be a bit of a time commitment, I think it would even be fun if you actually start out waking up trapped on the very BOTTOM floor, equipment taken from you. Then you HAVE to fight your way out. Kind of like in Ultima 7 part 2 (trapped in the Mountain of Freedom), there could still be vendors and the like throughout the dungeon. 13 or 14 levels, there's got to be some kind of economy or system for those cultists in the lower levels. Surely they don't trek all the way up when they need some milk for their tea.

 

Haven't yet read the 7 or so pages that have spawned from this comment yet - but this caught my eye. I'm a sucker for this trope every time - getting stuck somewhere late in the game, itemless, and only relying on the skills you've developed to escape/re-equip. I don't know why - every time, it just works for me.

 

And for the record, options are good. Easy exits don't ruin my experience. I may use them or not, but I'm not unhappy for them to be there. I don't mind being challenged, but I never want a game to frustrate me for its own sake.

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Considering the main complaint most people have about modern RPGs is that they make everything too accessible and easy

 

I don't think that's true at all. I think the common complaint is that RPGs dumb things down, but when I bitch about that, I'm talking about gameplay systems being simplified. I want my RPGs to be as accessible as possible. Arguing otherwise strikes me as unrepentant neckbeardism.

 

Regardless, my opinion on the matter is this: no one would try to tackle a dungeon like this all at once. They'd set up a secure camp on the surface, hire retainers to guard the camp, and return on a nightly basis to drop off loot and rest. They'd be methodical about it. Hell, I don't think adventurers would be able to carry all the food they'd need to clear a dungeon that size in one go. It would probably take weeks and weeks if they were even a little bit methodical about it.

Edited by el pinko grande
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I asked Feargus about this during the KS:

 

Q: About the mega-dungeon, it will have a direct access to surface every X levels like Watcher's Keep in BG2?

 

A: We want people to be able to have fun in the dungeon and also get out when they need to - so there will be ways that make sense to get back up to the surface and then back down again quickly.

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In all honesty my argument isn't really about the number of exits..I just don't want another game based around trailing back to town with loot every 5 minutes..and having loads of exits encourages this,

 

it's the same as the other arguments around rest spamming and xp for killing everything in that it encourages you to play in a certain way that is more about benefiting from game mechanics than what you would really do in that situation.

 

And I want a dungeon that is compelling enough that I want to keep going rather than pile out every level to go shopping

Just because it's encouraged, doesn't mean you have to do it. Don't give in to the peer pressure. When you see the next exit, say "Naw, I don't need it, I can handle this." instead of "Oh, an exit, I should use it, because it's there."

 

Yet again, in this thread, I am reading what I have read elsewhere; weak-willed people that want the game to force them to do something, because they can't challenge themselves. Go out into the world, level up, and put points into your willpower, man! Don't use willpower as a dump stat. I mean, c'mon, when you think about it, it's actually the most important stat in RL.

 

So the ones who can handle a massive challenge are the weak willed ones then? :woot:

No. I'm saying the ones who can't handle any temptation, like a handy dandy exit several floors down, are the weak willed ones. The dungeon can be just as challenging with extra exits as with none; it's just that in one case, you have no control over it, and in the other, you have to tell yourself "No, I won't take advantage of this extra exit".

 

Imagine you want to walk to the store, and it's a two mile round trip. You could leave your cell phone at home, so you're not tempted to call a friend or family member to pick you up. Or, you could take your cell phone with you, but every time you feel the temptation, you stop yourself.

 

One of those requires more willpower than the other to perform. I'm fairly hopeful I will not need to say which.

 

Edited to correct typo.

Edited by HangedMan

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In all honesty my argument isn't really about the number of exits..I just don't want another game based around trailing back to town with loot every 5 minutes..and having loads of exits encourages this,

 

it's the same as the other arguments around rest spamming and xp for killing everything in that it encourages you to play in a certain way that is more about benefiting from game mechanics than what you would really do in that situation.

 

And I want a dungeon that is compelling enough that I want to keep going rather than pile out every level to go shopping

Just because it's encouraged, doesn't mean you have to do it. Don't give in to the peer pressure. When you see the next exit, say "Naw, I don't need it, I can handle this." instead of "Oh, an exit, I should use it, because it's there."

 

Yet again, in this thread, I am reading what I have read elsewhere; weak-willed people that want the game to force them to do something, because they can't challenge themselves. Go out into the world, level up, and put points into your willpower, man! Don't use willpower as a dump stat. I mean, c'mon, when you think about it, it's actually the most important stat in RL.

 

So the ones who can handle a massive challenge are the weak willed ones then? :woot:

No. I'm saying the ones who can't handle any temptation, like a handy dandy exit several floors down, are the weak willed ones. The dungeon can be just as challenging with extra exits as with none; it's just that in one case, you have no control over it, and in the other, you have to tell yourself "No, I won't take advantage of this extra exit".

 

Imagine you want to walk to the store, and it's a two mile round trip. You could leave your cell phone at home, so you're not tempted to call a friend or family member to pick you up. Or, you could take your cell phone with you, but every time you feel the temptation, you stop yourself.

 

One of those requires more willpower than the other to perform. I'm fairly hopeful I will not need to say which.

 

Edited to correct typo.

Bringing the cellphone removes that sense of immersion and adventure desired at the beginning of the trip.

 

I think we should go for a compromise between the two camps: a small number of exits in the dungeon at distanced floors. I'm sure one or two extra exits won't ruin the experience, and if you think otherwise you're being unreasonable.

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In all honesty my argument isn't really about the number of exits..I just don't want another game based around trailing back to town with loot every 5 minutes..and having loads of exits encourages this,

 

it's the same as the other arguments around rest spamming and xp for killing everything in that it encourages you to play in a certain way that is more about benefiting from game mechanics than what you would really do in that situation.

 

And I want a dungeon that is compelling enough that I want to keep going rather than pile out every level to go shopping

Just because it's encouraged, doesn't mean you have to do it. Don't give in to the peer pressure. When you see the next exit, say "Naw, I don't need it, I can handle this." instead of "Oh, an exit, I should use it, because it's there."

 

Yet again, in this thread, I am reading what I have read elsewhere; weak-willed people that want the game to force them to do something, because they can't challenge themselves. Go out into the world, level up, and put points into your willpower, man! Don't use willpower as a dump stat. I mean, c'mon, when you think about it, it's actually the most important stat in RL.

 

So the ones who can handle a massive challenge are the weak willed ones then? :woot:

No. I'm saying the ones who can't handle any temptation, like a handy dandy exit several floors down, are the weak willed ones. The dungeon can be just as challenging with extra exits as with none; it's just that in one case, you have no control over it, and in the other, you have to tell yourself "No, I won't take advantage of this extra exit".

 

Imagine you want to walk to the store, and it's a two mile round trip. You could leave your cell phone at home, so you're not tempted to call a friend or family member to pick you up. Or, you could take your cell phone with you, but every time you feel the temptation, you stop yourself.

 

One of those requires more willpower than the other to perform. I'm fairly hopeful I will not need to say which.

 

Edited to correct typo.

Bringing the cellphone removes that sense of immersion and adventure desired at the beginning of the trip.

 

I think we should go for a compromise between the two camps: a small number of exits in the dungeon at distanced floors. I'm sure one or two extra exits won't ruin the experience, and if you think otherwise you're being unreasonable.

Not to me, it doesn't. And I quite frankly don't understand why it would. But, I'm willing to assume that's a fault on my part, and not craziness on others'.

 

I do like your idea. I, myself, urged for three exits; first floor, halfway through (seventh as of now), and at the very end (14th? or is it 15th now?), which is something I've seen a few others want, too.

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When i see this Dungeon, i think Underdark.

 

Oh, and Dwarf Fortress.

 

But anyway, Underdark. Tough to get away from in BG2, but with cities in it to set up camp in and rest. And possibly take on quests.

Would be a pity if this fell into the modern day RPG meta of "oh hey, we passed 2 rooms already, here's a teleporter to the surface".

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Its supposed to be an expedition into deep, forgotten places full of things that have festered there for millenia. So just generally make it difficult.

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I think we should go for a compromise between the two camps: a small number of exits in the dungeon at distanced floors. I'm sure one or two extra exits won't ruin the experience, and if you think otherwise you're being unreasonable.

Not to me, it doesn't. And I quite frankly don't understand why it would. But, I'm willing to assume that's a fault on my part, and not craziness on others'.

 

I do like your idea. I, myself, urged for three exits; first floor, halfway through (seventh as of now), and at the very end (14th? or is it 15th now?), which is something I've seen a few others want, too.

It boils down to a difference of experiential tastes, but I was just providing an argument for the opposition, a devil's advocate.

 

Also, I didn't mean to imply that you were being unreasonable, I meant it as a general statement. Sorry if it came off that way.

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The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.

The Endless Paths should be feared. The Endless Paths are named "Endless" for a reason. Easy exit on every level just breaks the whole thing.

 

It is acceptable though to create exits every 4-5 levels. And not an easy exit. An exit should be a reward. Be good at exploring the last 4-5 levels and you'll be able to open this secret exit.

For example, there is an exit on level 5 (in case of "every 5 levels"). This means that a player should do something on levels 1-5. There is an exit on level 10 - a player should do something on levels 6-10.

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I agree it shouldn't be easy to leave - an expedition into the depths is hardly exciting without the risk of getting lost or trapped because you're unprepared for the journey.

 

That being said the solution of a mini-boss every few levels and then a significant increase in difficulty on the next section down (with an exit somewhere around the mini-boss) seems appropriate. A clear indicator that you've reached one portion of the depths (or plot even, depending on the kind of lore OE puts in), but that your next delve into the darkness is going to be substantially more . . .difficult.

 

At the current depth a clear of 4-5 levels before finding some secret way out of the dungeon seems appropriate. If you want to go back before then. . hike your way out.

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I don't know if it's been already pointed out, but there is a simple solution : design a dungeon that is not just from top to bottom.

If you go from levels down and up and down (e.g. lvl 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-3-6-4-2-1...) then you can have just one exit and shortcuts that don't seem artificial.

Having to go from level 1 to level 13 level after level is just the basic design of dungeons. One can elaborate on this so that there is some variety. Plus, this can become a quite interesting 3D puzzle to find ways to go deeper.

 

This was one of the best features of the original Eye of the Beholder--you stopped going straight down after the first few levels and started wandering all over the place.

 

Granted, that was a game without vendors of any kind whatsoever, so it was a radically different mechanical system.


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If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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I'm posting as an old daggerfall player....and whilst I'm not asking for ridiculous labyrinths like that game had, one thing it did have that more recent games don't was the feeling that you are miles away from any help...giving real tension and fear (not helped by how buggy it was, lol)

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I agree with the OP completely and don't want a quick easy escape. While not a mega dungeon, I entered the Circle Tower in Origins ill prepared without knowing the door would shut behind me. The feeling of being trapped inside a Tower with abominations and demons was so immersiv. Having fought my way through so many tough battles with limited resources and coming out victorious in the end was unforgettable.

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Let's say the dungeon gets 15 levels. I'd be happy if there was a portal at level 5, 10 and 15. You can't abuse the portals, but you can still do a few trips to town.

 

The portals would obviously have to be tied into the lore. They could be ancient magical devices you activate on your way down.

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I think we should go for a compromise between the two camps: a small number of exits in the dungeon at distanced floors. I'm sure one or two extra exits won't ruin the experience, and if you think otherwise you're being unreasonable.

Not to me, it doesn't. And I quite frankly don't understand why it would. But, I'm willing to assume that's a fault on my part, and not craziness on others'.

 

I do like your idea. I, myself, urged for three exits; first floor, halfway through (seventh as of now), and at the very end (14th? or is it 15th now?), which is something I've seen a few others want, too.

It boils down to a difference of experiential tastes, but I was just providing an argument for the opposition, a devil's advocate.

 

Also, I didn't mean to imply that you were being unreasonable, I meant it as a general statement. Sorry if it came off that way.

I can appreciate that. In many cases, I, myself, find the role of devil's advocate quite appealing. And It is a good role to take up; it helps people understand themselves better, I find.

 

And don't worry, I did not take your words to mean that.


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