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Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter


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I gave BG2's underdark journey as a positive example for implementing a many, many hours long adventure in a hostile environment during which you won't be able to teleport to your 'home base' - to counter the apparently widespread attitude that long all-in-one-go adventures must necessarily be boring, overly difficult, or in some other way suck.

 

In no way did the invocation of that example imply that any particular design element of it would need to be copied 1:1 into the Mega Dungeon.

Of course it would be adapted to a 'castle ruins/dungeon' setting rather than an 'Underdark' setting. Of course it would not include an underground Drow city, but instead maybe a big underground crypt inhabited by undead (which can be just as interesting, and have just as many non-combat side-quests, as a Drow city).

 

The point is that long all-in-one-go adventures can be lots of fun and are nothing to be afraid of, as long as the game designers do their job well.

If you name that "Home base" and this "hostile enviropment city" it doesnt change the fact that BG2 had cities and sanctuaries inside that jorney. And that sanctuaries had the same impact impact on intencity of unstopable no exit adventure as exits. So it is bad example.

I said no such thing.

.....

but instead maybe a big underground crypt inhabited by undead (which can be just as interesting, and have just as many non-combat side-quests, as a Drow city).

So you said it just now, and so i simply completely got your previous point. :facepalm:

And i say second time - I fine and agree with that.

But why when it can have such sanctuary it "must have no exits" :)

Edited by void_dp
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Okay how about this:

 

The first few levels (let’s say 5) allow easy traveling back and forth, possibly even with shortcuts. These are the levels that have already seen quite a share of adventurers. Some of these adventurers have made it further than others, and some might have even created their own shortcuts back to the surface to allow for fast travel.

 

HOWEVER somewhere inside the dungeon there is a point of no return (and it might be wise to make this very clear to the player in advance, perhaps even make a pre-point-of-no-return-autosave for good measure). Henceforth starts the hardcore part of the dungeon, with the only way out being to go deeper. This would be similar to the Brynnlaw -> Underdark portion of BG2. Of course this should not imply a lack of opportunities to rest/trade, since deep inside the dungeon there could be small settlements for the party to interact with.

Edited by Pope
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HOWEVER somewhere inside the dungeon there is a point of no return (and it might be wise to make this very clear to the player in advance, perhaps even make a pre-point-of-no-return-autosave for good measure). Henceforth starts the hardcore part of the dungeon, with the only way out being to go deeper. This would be similar to the Brynnlaw -> Underdark portion of BG2. Of course this should not imply a lack of opportunities to rest/trade, since deep inside the dungeon there could be small settlements for the party to interact with.

And how that is better than this?:

HOWEVER somewhere inside the dungeon

there is a point of no return (and it might be make this very clear to the player in advance). Henceforth

starts the hardcore part of the dungeon,

with the only way out being to go deeper.

This would be similar to the Brynnlaw -> Underdark portion of BG2. Of course this should not imply a lack of opportunities to rest/restock, since deep inside the dungeon there would be small settlements for the party to interact with.

 

Why do you want a railways to make you stay there, but not a great storyline as a driving factor for you to want go down?

Edited by void_dp
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HOWEVER somewhere inside the dungeon there is a point of no return (and it might be wise to make this very clear to the player in advance, perhaps even make a pre-point-of-no-return-autosave for good measure). Henceforth starts the hardcore part of the dungeon, with the only way out being to go deeper. This would be similar to the Brynnlaw -> Underdark portion of BG2. Of course this should not imply a lack of opportunities to rest/trade, since deep inside the dungeon there could be small settlements for the party to interact with.

And how that is better than this?:

HOWEVER somewhere inside the dungeon

there is a point of no return (and it might be make this very clear to the player in advance). Henceforth

starts the hardcore part of the dungeon,

with the only way out being to go deeper.

This would be similar to the Brynnlaw -> Underdark portion of BG2. Of course this should not imply a lack of opportunities to rest/restock, since deep inside the dungeon there would be small settlements for the party to interact with.

 

Why do you want a railways to make you stay there, but not a great storyline as a driving factor for you to want go down?

Because it adds to the immershun.

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* sighs *

 

Toggle option - turn dungeon exits ON / OFF

 

/end thread

Or better yet:

 

Brain-toggle option: Use/Don't use the F**king exits if you want/don't want to.

Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

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Because it adds to the immershun.

It is one time effect for first time. In next playthroughs with next characters it just will be boring aspect of all adventure, when great variative storyline lasts much longer. So why dont add to your variant some hiden quest for another ways of entering there without point of no return. And make it so that some bold but fast character simply wont find such variants.

Edited by void_dp
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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

And so "no point back" it is not hand-holding?... Hm, i think yes, it's not, it's a railway :)

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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

Watcher's Keep did it. You saw the portal to the next level as soon as you arrived to the current level. And if you hovered your cursor over the portal you *literally* saw the words: "to next level".

 

Edit: Hell, Even Planescape Torment and Temple of Elemental Evil had giant colorful Map markers that showed you where the exits were.

 

Perhaps the problem here is that we're a forum full of people who have completely different philosophies on what makes a good dungeon. Some people hold atmosphere, exploration, and discovery as paramount, while others just love Roleplaying captured Rats in a maze. I'm in the former camp. You're in the latter. But that's fine. I'm pretty sure obsidian has already said that this mega dungeon will have multiple exits for those who wish to savor the experience one piece at a time, instead of doing the whole thing in one go.

Edited by Stun
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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

And so "no point back" it is not hand-holding?... Hm, i think yes, it's not, it's a railway :)

I don't see what is wrong with a little railway once in a while, as long as most of the game is non-linear. There are certain things in life that just require you to sit them out. It can make the achievement all the more rewarding.

 

And the dungeon doesn't even need to be strictly linear. It could be a maze, for example, or there could be different ways of approaching it. Having to go from the beginning to the end without being able to return doesn't necessarily have to imply linearity.

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* sighs *

 

Toggle option - turn dungeon exits ON / OFF

 

/end thread

Or better yet:

 

Brain-toggle option: Use/Don't use the F**king exits if you want/don't want to.

Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

 

And I get accused of being rude and obtuse? Congratulations sir, please take my crown.

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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

Perhaps the problem here is that we're a forum full of people who have completely different philosophies on what makes a good dungeon. Some people hold atmosphere, exploration, and discovery as paramount, while others just love Roleplaying captured Rats in a maze. I'm in the former camp. You're in the latter. But that's fine. I'm pretty sure obsidian has already said that this mega dungeon will have multiple exits for those who wish to savor the experience one piece at a time, instead of doing the whole thing in one go.

:facepalm:

 

Don't lump me into a catagory when you have no clue what you're talking about, please.

 

Firstly, atmosphere is hugely important to me. That's a big reason why I don't want exits at every level. Go read the description they gave for the dungeon. It sounds really ominous - a place where most adventures don't come out alive. So being able to hop in and out whenever I want to sell loot in a nearby down completely trivializes the dungeon. It becomes less of a deadly location to endure, and more of series of game levels for people to collect loot and kill baddies.

 

Secondly, exploration and discovery are very important to me also, and I fail to see how not having exits halfway down makes the dungeon any less exciting to explore. Please, explain that logic to me.

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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

And so "no point back" it is not hand-holding?... Hm, i think yes, it's not, it's a railway :)

I don't see what is wrong with a little railway once in a while, as long as most of the game is non-linear. There are certain things in life that just require you to sit them out. It can make the achievement all the more rewarding.

It's just not logical. You don't see wrong in little railwaing once in a while, but what with wanting at the same time AND no hand-holding with exits AND railwaing to no turning point situation. (as Piccolo says)

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Don't lump me into a catagory when you have no clue what you're talking about, please.

 

Firstly, atmosphere is hugely important to me. That's a big reason why I don't want exits at every level. Go read the description they gave for the dungeon. It sounds really ominous - a place where most adventures don't come out alive. So being able to hop in and out whenever I want to sell loot in a nearby down completely trivializes the dungeon. It becomes less of a deadly location to endure, and more of series of game levels for people to collect loot and kill baddies.

 

Secondly, exploration and discovery are very important to me also, and I fail to see how not having exits halfway down makes the dungeon any less exciting to explore. Please, explain that logic to me.

 

Enough of this ridiculous drivel.

 

Level exits in massive 15 level dungeons are not "hand holding". They don't "kill atmosphere", they don't conflict with the spirit of the old school RPGs, and they're not mutually exclusive to the notion that the dungeon is supposed to be an 'adventurer's graveyard'.

 

More to the point: Unless we learn that the Endless paths is a Prison-type dungeon and your party is kidnapped and tossed in at the very bottom and must make their way up to level 1 to leave, you don't have any sort of logical argument against level exits, as they are otherwise completely consistant with any type of man made structure and have existed in the most time honored and beloved CRPGs and Pen & paper D&D dungeon modules since the mid 1970s.

Edited by Stun
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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

And so "no point back" it is not hand-holding?... Hm, i think yes, it's not, it's a railway :)

I don't see what is wrong with a little railway once in a while, as long as most of the game is non-linear. There are certain things in life that just require you to sit them out. It can make the achievement all the more rewarding.

It's just not logical. You don't see wrong in little railwaing once in a while, but what with wanting at the same time AND no hand-holding with exits AND railwaing to no turning point situation. (as Piccolo says)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

 

Are you implying that no hand-holding and a point-of-no-return are mutually exclusive?

 

I definitely agree that a point-of-no-return limits your options to return and can thereby be qualified as a form of hand-holding, but the "hand-holding" doesn't need to go any further than that as I showed in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored.

 

I understand that you want complete freedom at every point in the game. But consider for a moment how logical/realitic that is. There should definitely be a lot of freedom in most parts of the game, but complete and total freedom to go and stand where you like just smells like a huge immersion-breaker to me.

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:facepalm:

 

Don't lump me into a catagory when you have no clue what you're talking about, please.

 

Firstly, atmosphere is hugely important to me. That's a big reason why I don't want exits at every level. Go read the description they gave for the dungeon. It sounds really ominous - a place where most adventures don't come out alive. So being able to hop in and out whenever I want to sell loot in a nearby down completely trivializes the dungeon. It becomes less of a deadly location to endure, and more of series of game levels for people to collect loot and kill baddies.

 

Secondly, exploration and discovery are very important to me also, and I fail to see how not having exits halfway down makes the dungeon any less exciting to explore. Please, explain that logic to me.

 

A place where most adventurers do not come out alive again does not literally have to be a trap - they are just overwhelmed by the dangers and foes that are present in the dungeon

 

I mean, having exits does not mean you can escape every obstacle or encounter just by walking out the door

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More to the point: Unless we learn that the Endless paths is a Prison-type dungeon and your party is kidnapped and tossed in at the very bottom and must make their way up to level 1 to leave, you don't have any sort of logical argument against level exits, as they are completely consistant with any type of man made structure and have existed in the most time honored and loved CRPGs Pen & paper Dungeons and Dragons dungeon modules since the mid 1970s.

Huh?

 

I'm not suggesting having only 1 entrance / exit. I'm just suggesting no exits at every level purely for the player's convenience.

 

So you enter the dungeon and have two choices - progress through every level to escape (there can even be multiple exits near the end of the dungeon), or turn back the way you came (which should come with some peril, such as new encounters).

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Are you implying that no hand-holding and a point-of-no-return are mutually exclusive?

I understand that you want complete freedom at every point in the game. But consider for a moment how logical/realitic that is. There should definitely be a lot of freedom in most parts of the game, but complete and total freedom to go and stand where you like just smells like a huge immersion-breaker to me.

If exits are only hand holdings and cant be, that it can be played both ways and so railwaing to points of no return are also hand-holding and cant be. If you cant wrap in immerse storyline some hiden exits, why i must agree with your railways that feel immersing when they are as much as game experience ruiners for me?

 

A want no point of no returns in such many level dungeon like as "your exit collapsed and no options" i want wraping such ideas in story with variants which won't contradict some hard to find exits that i even may not find on first try, because i didn't see some quest for it.

 

It is just cheap move of story when you have to go to that dungeon second time in new play and can't escape that exit collapse even when you know of it. It is much worse immerse breaker than 2nd hidden way in.

Edited by void_dp
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Perhaps, in addition to exits on every level, they could have big floating markers inside the dungeon to show you the way through. It wouldn't kill the atmosphere or anything like that, because we can simply choose to ignore them. :rolleyes: I mean, hand-holding isn't hand-holding, right? It's just more "options".

And so "no point back" it is not hand-holding?... Hm, i think yes, it's not, it's a railway :)

I don't see what is wrong with a little railway once in a while, as long as most of the game is non-linear. There are certain things in life that just require you to sit them out. It can make the achievement all the more rewarding.

It's just not logical. You don't see wrong in little railwaing once in a while, but what with wanting at the same time AND no hand-holding with exits AND railwaing to no turning point situation. (as Piccolo says)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

 

Are you implying that no hand-holding and a point-of-no-return are mutually exclusive?

 

I definitely agree that a point-of-no-return limits your options to return and can thereby be qualified as a form of hand-holding, but the "hand-holding" doesn't need to go any further than that as I showed in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored.

 

I understand that you want complete freedom at every point in the game. But consider for a moment how logical/realitic that is. There should definitely be a lot of freedom in most parts of the game, but complete and total freedom to go and stand where you like just smells like a huge immersion-breaker to me.

Okay this post was a bit ill-constructed but circumstance forced me to finish it without review.

 

What I'm trying to get at is that, at certain points in the game, I can really appreciate the feeling of being trapped inside a dungeon and having to sit it out.

 

I can understand that not everyone feels this way. So I have another suggestion:

 

What if some optional parts of the Endless Paths offered a point-of-no-return?

 

 

Yes, I am basically using the "well it's an option so if you don't like it don't use it"-argument against people that want an easy-to-access dungeon

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More to the point: Unless we learn that the Endless paths is a Prison-type dungeon and your party is kidnapped and tossed in at the very bottom and must make their way up to level 1 to leave, you don't have any sort of logical argument against level exits, as they are completely consistant with any type of man made structure and have existed in the most time honored and loved CRPGs Pen & paper Dungeons and Dragons dungeon modules since the mid 1970s.

Huh?

 

I'm not suggesting having only 1 entrance / exit. I'm just suggesting no exits at every level purely for the player's convenience.

 

So basically you're in favor of a complete suspension of Logic, engineering basics, and consistancy of lore, in order for all players to be plot shackled and held prisoner in this dungeon once they enter it.

 

Because all of the above (logic, engineering basics, lore consistancy) necessitates that the bigger the man-made structure, the more exits it will have. Also, I really don't see the "hand holding" difference between putting an exit at every level, vs an exit at every few levels.

 

There's also Zero logic behind your latest suggestion of not having any exits at the top and middle but then suddenly having a bunch of exits near the bottom.

Edited by Stun
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More to the point: Unless we learn that the Endless paths is a Prison-type dungeon and your party is kidnapped and tossed in at the very bottom and must make their way up to level 1 to leave, you don't have any sort of logical argument against level exits, as they are completely consistant with any type of man made structure and have existed in the most time honored and loved CRPGs Pen & paper Dungeons and Dragons dungeon modules since the mid 1970s.

Huh?

 

I'm not suggesting having only 1 entrance / exit. I'm just suggesting no exits at every level purely for the player's convenience.

 

So basically You're in favor of a complete suspension of Logic, engineering basics, and consistancy of lore, simply so that all players must be shackled and held prisoner in this dungeon.

That's not what he's suggesting.

 

In fact, there's two different issues at hand here.

 

First, there's the issue whether to have an exit at every level.

 

Second, there's the issue of points-of-no-return.

 

I might be guilty of introducing the second one. Maybe that should be a different topic.

Edited by Pope
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i think they are too intertwined to make 2 threads about this...basically, having exits in the dungeon that stay accessable, is directly related to having points-of-no-return.

If you can always backtrack to an exit, there is no point-of-no-return, if you cant, you have one. It doesnt matter if the exits are at every level, at every other level or whatever, as long as you can go up in the dungeon to the previous level and leave via the exit there, there is no difference.

 

I think points of no return should be small pockets of challanges where you go in, and need to do whatever it is that you need to do without a leave/rest and get a reward afterwards, but not entire dungeon levels (multiple even)

Edited by ComMcNeil
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