Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

[Piccolo]

The Dungeon description actually says THIS:

 

http://www.kickstart...ty/posts/319868

 

In the western reaches of the Dyrwood lies the Endless Paths, an ancient network of cobbled trails that wind through arches of dense overgrowth, twisting within the confines of a high castle wall as they make their way to the gates of iron-shuttered towers that jut forth from the interior. In ages past, the towers rising from the gardens to pierce the canopy of the forest once marked the dominion of the castle's relentless, crazed builder: Od Nua. But the courses of Od Nua's madness run far below the surface, stretching forever deeper into wandering catacombs and bone-cramped oubliettes unseen by living eyes for centuries. The Endless Paths, as the old Glanfathans call them, cannot be walked by the living, but the storytellers say with certainty that many strong souls have found a permanent home beneath the grieving creator's estate.

 

Strong souls, from everything Josh has told us so far, represent individuals who are very much the opposite of dead or diseased.

Do you have any quotes to back that up? ...Because they sound pretty dead to me.

 

In the second paragraph, they describe "restless victims of a horrific plague" - that to me, implies that they're no longer living.

[redneckdevil]

also the permanent residence also has the feel that they are talking about many strong people have found permanent residence because they are dead. The souls have been trapped or stayed there.

Man I need to find that part where josh talks about necromancy and he goes into how the dead and souls feature

[Stun]

Do you have any quotes to back that up?

Other than Josh's Update about Souls, where he points out that souls never die, they just reincarnate from one life to the next?

 

In the second paragraph, they describe "restless victims of a horrific plague" - that to me, implies that they're no longer living.

The second paragraph is prefaced with the caveat that it's Fiction and conjecture.

 

Literally. The very first sentence says this: Most else that is said and written of the place is fiction or conjecture, more likely to have sprouted from the svef-enhanced imaginations of bored and boasting mercenaries than from any seed of truth.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[void_dp]

And if you are undead you cease to occupy places or what?

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp

[ahdamnit]

@Piccolo:

 

Wow, you like to paint with some broad brushes don't ya! You assume alot of things you know? It's gotta be your way, because obiously the rest of us should be able to see that your ways are better? NO exits for any one you say? You must leave the vast majority of your hard earned loot there in the dungeon you say? LOL, Please do go on. Why don't you go on and tell the rest of us how the WHOLE game should be in your infinite wisdom? Every one is different and every one deserves a chance to enjoy the game in there own way. If the game makers are smart, and I believe they are, they'll make the game so everyone has a chance to be happy. Not simply those like you.

 

I love the idea of having a huge dungeon and I'd also love not having to abandon the vast majority of the loot I get there in the dungeon because of limited inventory space. You assume those like me who don't want to be deprived of what we spent our real life time playing for in this game won't dive in to it without thought? You want there to be no exits? Then maybe the developers will put in an option at character creation (or maybe in options for greater freedom to switch back and forth) that removes or perminantly seals all level exits except the one on the last floor for those like you? In the case of perminantly sealed but still there, maybe whenever the character touches the sealed exit doors they get a message like, No exit for JOO!

[Piccolo]

Other than Josh's Update about Souls, where he points out that souls never die, they just reincarnate from one life to the next?

So essentially, they're undead then.

 

Whatever they are, they're clearly not living by human standards. Otherwise why would the description say "unseen by living eyes for centuries" and "cannot be walked by the living"?

[Stun]

Other than Josh's Update about Souls, where he points out that souls never die, they just reincarnate from one life to the next?

So essentially, they're undead then.

They could be. Or they could be something else. We don't know enough about the nature of souls in this particular game.

 

We also can't just assume that we'll be the only party of adventurers tackling the endless paths.

[Gyor]

The difficulty modes are for those that want no exit from the megadungeon, don't force it down my throat.

 

I don't see the Megadungeon as an underground trap, I see it as a relic of the past to uncover and explore, but with dangerous creatures and breathtaking wonders. It should have plot and story and be about more then an annoying grindfest.

[redneckdevil]

Well u know what they when u try to make everyone happy...nobody ends up happy. This dungeon gonna be designed catering to a certain crowd more than others. Ow Wells, they know what they gonna do with it and in the end I gave them money so that they can make the game the way they want to.

Yes I have my preferences on what I believe would make me the most happiest, but in the end even if they dont cater to my way, thats fine. Im sure they will make it very enjoyable and whatever they make it ill at least give them a chance and not just write it off and not even comete it at least once on the sole fact it wasnt catered to my specifications.

However it turns out, even if its not what u would have wanted it to turn out like, we should all give the end result at least one unbias complete go thru and reserve our judgements there. We shouldnt be if theres an exit on every level im not gonna do it or if theres on the one exit im not gonna do it, we should all give the end result at least one complete unbias playthru and reserve judgements until then.

[Superdeluxe]

Are we just debating for the fun of it? Feargus has already stated that they wanted to make it easy to exit/enter the dungeon

[anek]

Who says it will last 7 times as long?

Based on designs given, including comparrisons to IWD(2?) dungeons, levels and other data on BIS/OE dungeons, yeah, 7 sounds about right.

I really don't want 30 hour sidequests

30+ hour dungeon raid

mega dungeon which will be a large part of the side-content

 

The 'design given' is a cartoonish concept drawing based on which no conclusion can be made regarding how long each level will take to complete. The pre-existing dungeons you mention also differ greatly in real-time length based on physical size, level design, and quests.

 

Each level of the Mega Dungeon could just take 20min to complete, as far as we know.

 

After escaping from the Asylum, the long journey home in chapter 5 - Brynnlaw -> ship -> sunken city -> Underdark areas -> Underdark exit - was a part of the game that had to be completed in that order before being able to go back to Amn. And it took many, many hours of player time to complete that journey (especially if you made good-aligned choices in the Underdark and were thorough). And it did not become boring at all, it was really cool.

As mentioned, it was just another city besides Athkatla, so the comparrison isn't entirely valid. Secondly, it was the main quest, not an optional sidequest, with all the plotforwarding that would hold. The dungeon? No plot forwarding.

 

It's not just another city, it is a very hostile environment. But, that's the thing - even in such a hostile environment (a part of the Underdark controlled by evil Drow!), the game creators managed to use good writing and level design to provide ways (in this case, subterfuge) for the player to restock/recuperate/etc while finding their way through it... But even then, it never loses the flavor of being 'trapped' in a dangerous place with no way of quickly teleporting in or out, having to work your way to the next level...

 

The fact that the design happens to include a "city" of sorts is a red herring in this discussing. There are many possible ways to give players the opportunity to do varied side-quests (i.e. not just endless combat) and to restock/recuperate during a long dungeon-like adventure, and I'm sure Obsidian would be able to find some that fit in with their concept of the Mega Dungeon.

 

And btw., the only "plot forwarding" regarding the main plot that happened during this whole long Underdark journey in BG2, was that you learned 'Yes, Irenicus traveled through here, and he may have collaborated with the Drow in some way, but he's gone now'. The actual sub-stories that guide you through this journey could just as well exist as an optional part of the game far away from the main plot.

 

And if you are undead you cease to occupy places or what?

 

You cease to require easily accessible supply tunnels/portals.

Edited October 18, 2012 by anek

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

* sighs *

 

Toggle option - turn dungeon exits ON / OFF

 

/end thread

Or better yet:

 

Brain-toggle option: Use/Don't use the F**king exits if you want/don't want to.

By this logic we can just place Nuka-Cola in every inn. Those who don't like it can just pretend it doesn't exist and not use it.

Better? Really?

[void_dp]

But even then, it never loses the flavor of being 'trapped' in a dangerous place with no way of quickly teleporting in or out, having to work your way to the next level...

There wasn't any dungeons that you went to explore, there was TRAVEL from places to places.

There was antagonist which traped you in the begining of that travel. There was your character oriented game.

 

When we come to optional megadungeon, there can't be some my evil nemesis who wants to trap me, and to whom i need to go to the last flor to kick his arse imidiately. So you basicaly play for a fool who just went and got himself traped in random no exit trap.

You cease to require easily accessible supply tunnels/portals.

That megadungeon was build by undead to begin with? Or do undead rebuild everything to make no exits?

Still no logic...

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp

[Hassat Hunter]

Each level of the Mega Dungeon could just take 20min to complete, as far as we know.

You would only state such things if you didn't know Obsidian...

But even then, it never loses the flavor of being 'trapped' in a dangerous place with no way of quickly teleporting in or out, having to work your way to the next level...

True. However, as stated, part of the main quest. I don't think it would be so fun for a single-side quest to deviate you as much as that from the general play area.

It worked in BG2 since you didn't really have sidequests from Athklatla (always mistyping that) left, you all finished them before going to spellhold. However here, the entire rest of the game is still out there to be played upon...

There are many possible ways to give players the opportunity to do varied side-quests (i.e. not just endless combat) and to restock/recuperate during a long dungeon-like adventure, and I'm sure Obsidian would be able to find some that fit in with their concept of the Mega Dungeon.

Agreed, agreed. I don't doubt OE that much.

Still, I would think 15 levels *in a row* is too much, even with OE's quest-crafting skills and solutions.

And it kinda seems most people here want a diablo-esque battleslog, instead of having it be like the rest of the game, well-balanced between conversation, combat, exploration etc.

Which makes me sad...

[Stun]

It's not just another city, it is a very hostile environment.

 

What are you talking about? Ust Natha (the Drow city in BG2's underdark) is no more hostile than Athkatla. And the environs surrounding it are no more hostile than the lands on the surface.

 

Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, give up on this stupid comparison already. The underdark is not a mega dungeon.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[Stun]

* sighs *

 

Toggle option - turn dungeon exits ON / OFF

 

/end thread

Or better yet:

 

Brain-toggle option: Use/Don't use the F**king exits if you want/don't want to.

By this logic we can just place Nuka-Cola in every inn. Those who don't like it can just pretend it doesn't exist and not use it.

Better? Really?

Call me when using a few exits in a dungeon causes all enemies in that dungeon to explode and drop dead. Or, cause your entire party to instantly be healed and have all spells and abilities replenished. Until then, don't spit out a moronic argument and call it "logic"

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stun

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

By this logic we can just place Nuka-Cola in every inn. Those who don't like it can just pretend it doesn't exist and not use it.

Better? Really?

Call me when using a few exits in a dungeon causes all enemies in that dungeon to explode and drop dead. Until then, don't spit out a moronic argument and call it "logic"

Ingame effect doesn't matter. Pretending something doesn't exists never restores broken immersion. Thus an argument "You don't like it - you don't use it" is useless.

Why would I not use something? More importantly, why would my character not use something that he will use at the heartbeat? Am I forced to choose between metagaming and breaking immersion? I think not. And if not, "don't use it" is not a valid argument.

[redneckdevil]

The dont like it, dont use it isnt a very good arguement. Look how its done in skyrim....shudders.

If they decide to multiple exits/entrances, then it needs to be done in a way we are not forced to self gimp ourselves but be challenged still by game design, not our own rules and such.

[phimseto]

I've actually grown to appreciate dungeon level design that doesn't force me to backtrack. For the mega-dungeon, there are a couple of ways that you could do it.

 

1. As above, a feature that you elect to use/not use.

 

2. Like Watcher's Keep, build conditions and areas into the game that open up entry points as you go on.

 

I'd be fine with the latter, but I personally would want *something*. People who want to zone in and out of fifteen winding levels with a six-player party either never played the old Infinity Engine games or have rose-colored memories of them! :-D

[Freshock]

Totally agree. There shouldn't be any easy way out. I don't know if there will be any repair system though, I wouldn't want to have useless gear in level 12 - so if there's any repairing involved I'd hope for a chance to repair it in the dungeon itself.

[UncleBourbon]

I'm not a big fan of equipment degradation. Maybe enchantment burnout (so many rounds of combat duration per day for armor enchantments or so many hits with a weapon's enchantment). Or perhaps the "dulled" or "dented" attribute (not making the equipment useless, just somewhat less useful).

 

I have decided it would be suitably awesome if you reach the bottom level of clearing out the dungeon and it is a giant stone golem that you trigger - a 15 story high stone golem - and you either fight or not.

[wbn]

Frankly, considering P:E: likely will have better pathfinding than games 10+ years ago, I don't care about shortcuts one way or the other. Open the map -> click on the stairway node -> -> pop out of map and click on it... doing that, worst case scenario, 13 times doesn't seem too bad.

[danielkx]

I remember when I played the first Drakensang game a while back, I would consider that game to be fairly oldschool/hardcore in certain aspects. There was a sidequest that had you go into a basement that had multiple levels, around 5 I think, so you could kill all the rats including the queen rat. You had a guide take you to each level. So after you complete the second level, he catches up with you to take you to the third level. He always warned you that the next level will be quite dangerous and offered to take you to the surface if you felt you werent up to the challenege at that point.

 

Now I must say, I would not have been able to complete that basement/dungeon if that option was not given too me and was grateful that they implemented that in that specific quest.

 

If this 15 level mega dungeon in PE is anywhere near as difficult as the Drakensang one, I would say there definently needs to be an option for you to return to the surface and come back after you feel your character is up to the task of taking on the next, more challenging level.

Edited October 18, 2012 by danielkx

[AW8]

Look at The Lord of the Rings for example. I'm pretty sure the fellowship didn't return to the surface from Moria every half hour to sell loot.

By this logic we can just place Nuka-Cola in every inn. Those who don't like it can just pretend it doesn't exist and not use it.

Better? Really?

Call me when using a few exits in a dungeon causes all enemies in that dungeon to explode and drop dead. Until then, don't spit out a moronic argument and call it "logic"

Ingame effect doesn't matter. Pretending something doesn't exists never restores broken immersion. Thus an argument "You don't like it - you don't use it" is useless.

Why would I not use something? More importantly, why would my character not use something that he will use at the heartbeat? Am I forced to choose between metagaming and breaking immersion? I think not. And if not, "don't use it" is not a valid argument.

Yes, the argument is really weak.

 

If you had the options to choose whether you want "Easy exits from large dungeons" or "Fast travel" in options and difficulty settings before you start the game, I could see stuff like this work. But only if the game is designed and balanced so it's enjoyable to play it without the easy-mode options toggled on, or else you'll end up like

skyrim....shudders.

Don't want to fast-travel? Then don't use it!

Kinda hard when there's only 5 or 8 fast-travel stations in the world, horses are slow as snails, and there's no way to fortify your walking speed.

 

Don't want to make your own Daedric armor at level 6, a few hours into the game? Then don't!

The only other way is to level up to like 40 (level-scaled loot, yay!) and hope to find it randomly in dungeon loot. And since there's no difference between Forsworn loot and common bandit loot, it's better to continuously raid the same bandit forts again and again.

 

Don't want to use the hilariously overpowered and unbalanced skills Alchemy, Enchanting and Smithing? Then don't!

So I'm supposed to skip 16% of all the skills in the game because a company is unable to balance their own game?

 

 

It's like if Jedi Academy presented you the premise that you could play with either blasters or the lightsabers and be just as effective. Don't like the lightsaber? Don't use it! It wouldn't be the game's fault when you're unable to defeat your first Cultist of Ragnos.

 

Or if Kyle Katarn offered you some Nuka-Cola and the honor of testing the Aperture Science Handheld Portal Device during your Jedi training. It's completely optional! Don't like it, don't use it!

It's not Raven Software's fault for not putting these things under a clown-mode toggle, it's your fault for wanting balance and immersion.

Edited October 18, 2012 by AW8

[Chabneruk]

Don't want to use the hilariously overpowered and unbalanced skills Alchemy, Enchanting and Smithing? Then don't!

So I'm supposed to skip 16% of all the skills in the game because a company is unable to balance their own game?

 

Because dungeon exits unbalance a game? Its still a matter of preferences. Some like them, some don't.