Souls are like cheese - everything is better with them

[Shadenuat]

Or, as an alternative for topic title - "Do not stat Lady of Pain".

 

When Souls were introduced first, it was a metaphysical thing which seemed to act as a pillar for world concept and narrative, a plot-hook, if you may. However, with last update, we've seen some new tendencies in design, which I myself find a bit troubling:

 

"ciphers have the unique ability to peer through the spiritual energy of the world to manipulate other souls"

"fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance"

and even rogues

"imbuing their weapons with a soul-eating venom"

 

I think it raises a few questions, like:

Just how much of hammering classes and abilities with souls are players ready to accept, before the whole thing loses it's narrative charm?

Won't the fact that everyone around uses the same one thing to do something superhuman trivialize the concept?

Could I use power of soul to grow bigger potatoes on my potato-farm?

[Sensuki]

I remember that from the Level-0 Characters segment

[Clammo]

"Souls are like cheese - everything is better with them" - even toes?

 

Edit: Strong reading comprehension failure on my part!

Edited October 5, 2012 by Clammo

[Wintersong]

There is no cheese, only bacon.

 

I thought that souls would have uses as those described lately, including fighters that use their "Ki" to buff themselves. Seemed quite obvious but apparently that was not the case. Just keep in mind that most people has fractured/broken souls, so they won't be able to grow their potatoes to epic size.

[Amentep]

I see souls as the unifying concept of the game, therefore I have no problem with it effecting everyday life in the setting.

[Tale]

Just how much of hammering classes and abilities with souls are players ready to accept, before the whole thing loses it's narrative charm?

It seems to be one of the major elements that divides this world from reality. They know souls exist andtheir souls have enabled them to do great things. I don't think the point is to be charming. But a unifying element of the setting.

[general_azure]

The correct version of that theorem is "Everything is better with either cheese or chocolate" imho... wouldn't want cheese on my cookies.

 

To the matter at hand, I think the argument goes like this:

1) People ask for all classes to have interesting and awesome powers, not only traditional mages

2) Those powers tend to be way beyond what a human can normaly do

3) Now you either end up with some sort of superhero cartoon or try to justifiy by giving everyone access to some neat power source. In this game, they chose to call it souls instead of magic, the force, the warp or whatever

[Karranthain]

I must say I wasn't a big fan of this as well :

 

Fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance

 

I'd prefer it if only some classes (priest, monk, wizard, cipher) would be able to tap into their soul's power. Would make it more unique.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Karranthain

[rjshae]

Broken souls must be like Limberger cheese; smells like stinky human feet.

[FlintlockJazz]

Sounds alot like how Earth Dawn did it with everyone able to tap into some magic source (can't remember what they called it) to weave effects, like the Swordmaster would cast magic with their sword to enhance their swordfighting etc.

[ravenshrike]

The correct version of that theorem is "Everything is better with either cheese or chocolate" imho... wouldn't want cheese on my cookies.

The correct correct version of that is "Everything is better with cheese, chocolate, or bacon. Combining any two of those can be decent, but not better than their individual parts, and combining all three except possibly in a cheesecake is right out."

[Shadenuat]

In this game, they chose to call it souls instead of magic, the force, the warp or whatever

 

Notice how these two concepts of magic were handled in their settings and why I have problem with everyone tapping into soul-business.

First, a concept of magic was created - Force, Warp.

Then, classes were taken from inside of that concept - Jedi, Sith and Psykers. These privileged classes have they own culture and rules. Like, for example, when a Psyker in Warhammer tries to use power of Warp, he has to pass a morale test, and on a roll which is more than his morale attribute he suffers a wound - by Warp overtaking him.

So, yeah, while Psykers are kinda "mages", they are children of their setting.

 

But in PE, we have these "Souls", but they seem to slapped on D&D classes for now, not backwards. Wizards are still going to use spellbooks and scrolls. It seems a bit crude and what's the point of changing name from Magic to Souls, I don't get it (for now).

Obviously I believe Obsidian can pull it off with their quality of writing alone (yes, I have SO MUCH faith in guys), but still.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Shadenuat

[LadyCrimson]

I don't mind fighter abilities/skills that enhance their melee and/or melee CC abilities, like knockback or short bursts of increased attack speed and such. And yes, it does sort of remind of something like The Force, where not everyone could/would utilize it, and those who can have varying degrees of skill with it. So I guess I like (or at least don't mind) a thin layer of cheese ... just not too thick. Except on a pizza.

[general_azure]

Notice how these two concepts of magic were handled in their settings and why I have problem with everyone tapping into soul-business.

First, a concept of magic was created - Force, Warp.

Then, classes were taken from inside of that concept - Jedi, Sith and Psykers. These privileged classes have they own culture and rules. Like, for example, when a Psyker in Warhammer tries to use power of Warp, he has to pass a morale test, and on a roll which is more than his morale attribute he suffers a wound - by Warp overtaking him.

So, yeah, while Psykers are kinda "mages", they are children of their setting.

 

There a big problem I usually see when bringing those settings to video games: If the privileged class is simply more awesome than the average guy, everyone wants/needs to be part of it. When anyone without a lightsaber is no more than a nuisance after a certain point, the number of force sensitive people has to increase dramatically to keep the game interesting. Might as well go the next step and just give it to everyone...

 

And the warhammer example is a bit more... complicated. Can't speak for fantasy, but in 40k everything that is not described as purely technological is usually still handwaved by pointing to the warp. Need an explanation for why red is really faster or how interstellar travel works? The warp did it.

 

 

But in PE, we have these "Souls", but they seem to slapped on D&D classes for now, not backwards. Wizards are still going to use spellbooks and scrolls. It seems a bit crude and what's the point of changing name from Magic to Souls, I don't get it (for now).

Obviously I believe Obsidian can pull it off with their quality of writing alone (yes, I have SO MUCH faith in guys), but still.

 

I guess choosing souls instead of generic magic is tied to the plot. Maybe there's some big bad stealing the souls of the deceased to fuel his power or something like that.

 

 

]The correct correct version of that is "Everything is better with cheese, chocolate, or bacon. Combining any two of those can be decent, but not better than their individual parts, and combining all three except possibly in a cheesecake is right out."

 

I stand corrected by the awesome power of bacon =P

[agewisdom]

Originally I was hoping for souls to be a unique concept, to be tied into past lives and maybe a karmic system that's invisibly measured (to avoid gaming the system). Unfortunately, it appears the souls concept appears to be more like a mana mechanic (correct me if I'm wrong). Just a bit sad about this.

Edited October 5, 2012 by agewisdom

[Osvir]

Avellone states that souls travel from being to being in this issue as well:

http://www.rockpaper...ool-innovation/

 

Original thread:

http://forums.obsidi...-concept-aloth/

 

EDIT:

My own take on Souls, what's the Lore going to be like? (Also flirting with some mechanical aspects~)

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61105-what-is-the-soul-lore/

Edited October 5, 2012 by Osvir

[Cryticus]

I don't really have any problem with soul being stand in for mana , mainly because they said that souls will be important and that already suggest that it woud not be simply name change for energy.

Basicly I susspect that it may be something similar to lifestream in FF7 as in soul will be that mystical source of energy, THAT world is aware of and that can be interesting sort of modern play of concept of deal with a devil you get awesome power but for the cost , of the soul.

That said it is only my owne idea and Obsidian my plan something compltly diffrent but hey speculation is speculation

[TrashMan]

Or, as an alternative for topic title - "Do not stat Lady of Pain".

 

When Souls were introduced first, it was a metaphysical thing which seemed to act as a pillar for world concept and narrative, a plot-hook, if you may. However, with last update, we've seen some new tendencies in design, which I myself find a bit troubling:

 

"ciphers have the unique ability to peer through the spiritual energy of the world to manipulate other souls"

"fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance"

and even rogues

"imbuing their weapons with a soul-eating venom"

 

I think it raises a few questions, like:

Just how much of hammering classes and abilities with souls are players ready to accept, before the whole thing loses it's narrative charm?

Won't the fact that everyone around uses the same one thing to do something superhuman trivialize the concept?

Could I use power of soul to grow bigger potatoes on my potato-farm?

 

I can't say I like it.

 

It basicly sounds like Dragon Age 2 combat moves, only explained by SOUL POWER. Sounds very, very bad.

Goddamit, I wanted to play a normal human.

But it sure sounds like everyone will be doing superhuman anime-like moves and crap.

I'm really starting to dread the setting.

Edited October 5, 2012 by TrashMan

[ravenshrike]

It basicly sounds like Dragon Age 2 combat moves, only explained by SOUL POWER. Sounds very, very bad.

Goddamit, I wanted to play a normal human.

But it sure sounds like everyone will be doing superhuman anime-like moves and crap.

I'm really starting to dread the setting.

Soooo, you wanted the entire game to be levels 1-3 in D&D? Or maybe 1-6 if you're talking 2nd ed? Because anything beyond that is by definition superhuman. Well, except for the fighter class outside of Pathfinder and 4th ed. But that's because D&D fighter class design has always sucked donkey **** until those 2.

[Gyor]

Yeah I agree with Ravenshrike.

 

I really like the Soul idea, it really fleshes out the setting and gives it a core theme.

 

But I don't like comparisons to the force. The force is a field of energy and Souls are so much more then sources of magic.

 

And while Souls are the source of magic in a general sense, souls can have very different natures/forms, not every soul can do everything, they have to be shaped in a sense.

 

Now that I think of it this vaguely reminds me of Mage: The Awakening, cool game. Not completely, but a bit.

 

I like that fighters can draw on thier souls as well.

 

As for it being Anime, it won't have the pure cheeze of most PG Anime, say Dragonball Z, it'll have much deeper philosphical overtones.

 

Also Your in the Game isn't mana, its your freaking Soul so it plays a much more diverse role in the game and plotline, then just your magic.

 

As for Wizards the way they describe it, it makes sense. The way the wizard draws magic from his Soul is through almost scienctic study of his Soul, via arcane formuela. Requiring a Wizard to use a Tome I figure is because he uses it to access the functions of his soul, to impute formulas, like a keyboard and mouse to the souls computer.

 

A Cleric on the other hand utilizes his soul differently, because in part it is different, its been to high planes of existance and been shaped by that.

 

And so on.

 

 

[TrashMan]

It basicly sounds like Dragon Age 2 combat moves, only explained by SOUL POWER. Sounds very, very bad.

Goddamit, I wanted to play a normal human.

But it sure sounds like everyone will be doing superhuman anime-like moves and crap.

I'm really starting to dread the setting.

Soooo, you wanted the entire game to be levels 1-3 in D&D? Or maybe 1-6 if you're talking 2nd ed? Because anything beyond that is by definition superhuman. Well, except for the fighter class outside of Pathfinder and 4th ed. But that's because D&D fighter class design has always sucked donkey **** until those 2.

 

Fighters didn't suck. They were a simple class, but had tactical options (especially in pathfinder). All the combat manouvers were normal stuff, no magical powers.

Everoyne having magical powers cheapens them.

 

I don't want to see every fighter hiting the gound with his sword, causing a massive shockwave, nor gainign super-speed, nor jupming 50 feet into hte air.

I don't want to see rouges conjuring magical poison from their buttocks.

 

 

Now don't get me wrong - I'm sure PE will be a great game.

 

But I'm afraid that it seems less and less lilkely that it will truly be my kind of game.

Setting and mechanics are two things that make or break a RPG for me.

 

After all, the best horror in the world won't draw you in if you're not interested in horror.

Edited October 6, 2012 by TrashMan