The Monk Class

[cyberarmy]

Also on topic -

 

FLAMING FIST SMASH ZOMBIE FACE!

 

Love the new wallpaper.

 

I support this but i would also like to see flaming kicks!

 

AND SOME CHEST HAIR PLUCKING!

[DCParry]

Also on topic -

 

FLAMING FIST SMASH ZOMBIE FACE!

 

Love the new wallpaper.

 

I support this but i would also like to see flaming kicks!

 

AND SOME CHEST HAIR PLUCKING!

 

I assume his punches, they have the power of kicks.

[Aedelric]

I enjoyed Jade Empire, the setting worked, martial arts and all the Asian aspects fitted in the right place. Their was not conflicting culture clash in that game and if they ever make a squeal I would play that too, if it was not for the fact I no longer trust Bioware.

 

We have seen the map that will be used, their is no way such a small area could accommodate such a diverse arey of cultures. One could say people travel in this world, but according to lore it is neigh on impossible to travel the high seas.

 

Monks are in and their is no changing that, but no one says monks have to be Asian kung-fu masters. I suggest that the kind of monk one finds in the game world should be highly dependant on the landmass used, just like in the real world. Keep the martial arts masters, but only in settings where it makes sense. Not the high fantasy Celtic inspired region of Eir Glanfath.

 

An Eir Glanfath monk could be vastly different, yet still religious and tapping into the spiritual side of their soul. Perhaps they could wear more European style clergy robes opposed to shaolin style, carry flails instead of staves and crossbows instead of.. whatever kung-fu monks use for ranged combat.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Aedelric

[norolim]

An idea: what if Monks were MMA fighters. Well, not literally. They could be people that devote their life to achieving a harmony of body and soul through martial arts. But not just a single style. They would strive to be universal fighters and therefore would study grappling and striking techniques with equal devotion. This way they could realy be master fighters as there would be no way to penetrate their defense. And the devs would avoid stereotypes.

[Aedelric]

So, your suggestion is remove the religious angle? Then why call them monks at all?

[Monte Carlo]

To stop derailing the other topic, we can discuss the pro and con's of the Monk class here.

 

Personally I am completely against a stereotyped Asian kung-fu fighter with spiritual overtones. The archetype has been done over and over again, in many varying settings and in most cases when set within a high fantasy medieval world it often feels and looks out of place.

 

With respect, you fall into the trap that many of us fall into here. That's the trap of viewing your personal POV of what constitutes 'high fantasy' as fact. I am as guilty as the next guy of doing this, so I can spot it when another person does it. To me, for example, a classic Kung-Fu monk doesn't feel remotely out of place --- the fantasy I like is eclectic, eccentric, odd, even gonzo.

 

How can this be addressed?

Well, that depends. Does it mean that you want something that fits a different monk archetype? Or maybe it doesn't actually need addressing.

 

In European culture monks traditional are peaceful, tend herb gardens and wear habits dedicating their lives to god. But the crusades changed that and we had the likes of Hospitilars, warrior monks who took vows to fight zealously for god and heal the wounded. A much more likeable monk archetype in my opinion.

 

I like the idea of a beer-brewing, bee-keeping class too. But OTOH the warrior-monk you describe is, really, a sort of paladin.

 

Are you for kung-fu monks or against?

Hmmm. You've couched the debate in deliberately perogative terms there. Am I in favour of a melee class that has a suite of powers based on extraordinary willpower and self-discipline? Yes I am. Does that automatically mean that I want a Bruce Lee style character? Not really.

 

I direct you towards Diablo 3 and Icewind Dale 2. Both games had cool monk archetypes that showed how you could play around with the class (the Tibetan-Germanic mountain monks of IWD2 were really cool).

 

Personally, I'd like to see a weapons-monk as much as an unarmed combat monk. With some unique, setting specific weapons. I'm also cool with the notion that the monks are wanderers from a faraway land, or live in combat academy / monasteries in the core game world.

 

Cheers

MC

[norolim]

So, your suggestion is remove the religious angle? Then why call them monks at all?

 

If this was for me, where did I suggest that?

[Aedelric]

 

If this was for me, where did I suggest that?

 

Well, if it was not indicated that then your suggestion was effectively to include the stereotype Asian kung-fu monk, with more weapons. That does not really change anything.

 

 

 

Diablo monks are one of the big stereotypes Monte Carlo, that is what I would like to avoid. You should read the other posts, their have been better alternatives since my original ill thought out post that do not depend on a kind of paladin class.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Aedelric

[Wintersong]

Maybe these monks use Savate. Altough in our world we have all that artial martist stuff associated to asians, it doesn't mean that PE couldn't have developed similar stuff in a different context that has led to same results. Yes, those who want "Medieval Europe with Magical stuff" wouldn't be happy but I didn't read in Obsidian's pitch for the game "Medieval Europe with Magical stuff".

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to play a game (PnP or cRPG) that play in a setting like that (the PnP RPG Anno Domini was a nice ucrony game) and have spanish Inquisitors casting flame strikes on the heretics, but it's fine to have other stuff as long as it's well integrated within the game world.

[Aedelric]

Some inquisitor attributes seems like a nice idea Wintersong.

[norolim]

If this was for me, where did I suggest that?

 

Well, if it was not indicated that then your suggestion was effectively to include the stereotype Asian kung-fu monk, with more weapons. That does not really change anything.

There seems to be something wrong with your discussion skills. Why do you keep assuming people mean things you fear they may mean, when you have no basis for that? Try and be a bit more open-minded.

 

A monk in PE doesn't have to be a buddhist. He doesn't even have to live in a monastery. The PE monk may e.g. be a follower of the god of war (if one exists in teh realm), live in a town and demonstrate his faith by by perfecting his body and soul. He could even have a profession: he could be an assassin or a simple bodyguard.

[Aedelric]

There seems to be something wrong with your discussion skills. Why do you keep assuming people mean things you fear they may mean, when you have no basis for that? Try and be a bit more open-minded.

 

Or, you are not good at explaining.

[Akratus]

I like the idea of monks using their souls to enhance their body directly instead of through their weapons like with a fighter. The monk in the concept art is FLAME PUNCHING those undead guys in the face. I'd like to see the monk as more of a barbarian, they don't need weapons because they channel destructive powers through their fists. They'll have different powers than a fighter and I would think less durability but more evasion.

 

The next question that comes to my mind is how is the Barbarian going to be different than that? Same thing but with a sword? I dunno.

 

A MELEE WIZARD!!

 

Edited October 4, 2012 by ArealLechOmit

[eldilibra]

Imagine monks like characters from Dragon Ball Z. Now we're talking...

[drain]

I hope they let the players decide which kind of monk they want to play. European style monks in some parts of the world and oriental style monks in others parts of the world would work nice I think.

[Cthulchulain]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Danica_Maupoissant

 

Nuff said.

[TrashMan]

Don't like the kung-fu concept really.

 

It always felt wrong for a medieval fantasy setting.

 

Also, if you can puch trough armor with fists, what's the point of armor and weaposn to begin with?

[cyberarmy]

Don't like the kung-fu concept really.

 

It always felt wrong for a medieval fantasy setting.

 

Also, if you can puch trough armor with fists, what's the point of armor and weaposn to begin with?

 

You are assuming EVERYONE can punch/kick like that.

 

And i really dont know why somebody thinks there have to be only Europe standarts on medievelish settings. Asia existed in that era/age too(also Arabs, Aztecs, Native Americans,İndians Aborjins etc.), and they discovered fireworks/gunpowder usage.

[Cthulchulain]

Just wanted to illustrate that martial arts don't need to be tied directly to culture. As for why armour and weapons, monks need decades of training to punch through armour, and the average grunt isn't going to have the means or inclination to spend half his life in a cloister.

 

Hmm, or subverted:

http://mistborn.wikia.com/wiki/Sazed

 

Possible interpretation: Monk soul powers are internal -- affecting their bodies, rather than the world around them directly. Self-buffs to increase their strength, fortitude, speed etc. Doesn't have to be tied to being weaponless, and unarmed combat could be available as a monk specialisation rather than tied to the class mechanics directly. Maybe ability to amplify some effects (like the flaming fist thing) above what can be achieved with weapons (having to channel soul through the blade dissipates some energy).

 

Seems like all the magic is being separated into different spheres, so this seems an appropriate one.

 

Edit: Also, I think the kensai as implemented in BG2 would be much more better as a monk kit -- the flavour suits much better.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Cthulchulain

[cyberarmy]

 

Possible interpretation: Monk soul powers are internal -- affecting their bodies, rather than the world around them directly. Self-buffs to increase their strength, fortitude, speed etc. Doesn't have to be tied to being weaponless, and unarmed combat could be available as a monk specialisation rather than tied to the class mechanics directly. Maybe ability to amplify some effects (like the flaming fist thing) above what can be achieved with weapons (having to channel soul through the blade dissipates some energy).

 

 

That is kind of technics are used by some monks in D&D type universes already.

And if (when ) we hit 2,6 millions i will be creating a party full of dwarven monks.

Dwarven. Monks.

[TrashMan]

Good for you. The first thing I'll do is make a Monk-be-gone mod.

[Karranthain]

What about someone like Warhammer's flagellants? Almost naked fanatics, badly armed, faith and everything.

 

Still, it's not really the origin of the class I am more concerned with, rather it's mechanics. Monks are often tend to be boring to create, level up and dress up. You can't give them weapons, because you instantly lock their martial ability. You don't give them armor, as it locks their Wisdom-based AC bonus. So they just kinda run around naked, getting fixed feats you can't really tweak with, acting as fighters for players who can't create a decent fighter. That's how I felt about them in NWN1-2, Wizardry and Might and Magic anyway.

 

You mean these fine genlemen?

 

 

I'd be very much in support of this. Personally, I find Kung-Fu monks rather boring and cliché, and I admit I'm not particularly fond of the Jade Empire style monk in the concept art.

But that's an opinion, Shadenauts concern is more valid - even if fighters or rangers etc. are very much in the realm of cliché, there's at least a large degree of what they can do - for an instance, a greatsword wielding fighter in plate is very much different than his lightly armoured spear and shield equivalent.

 

As for the flagellants themselves :

 

I think they'd really make for an interesting class, it's not something you see in every cRPG.

Here's the Warhammer's rendition :

 

When war threatens, bands of crazed Flagellants instinctively gravitate towards battlefields, appearing unannounced and charging headlong towards the enemy without fear or hesitation. Flagellants fight in a crazed frenzy, driven insane by the horrors the world has inficted upon them and desperate for their pain to end.

 

Basically, they're utterly fearless zealots, somewhat similar to berserkers, only much, much more dangerous

 

In combat terms, they could be immune to psychlogical effects and somewhat resistant to magic; and while their frenzy is very powerful, you'd better not be standing anywhere close to them...Flagellants could also fill the role of a martyr - protecting others with their bodies etc.

 

I'd also think that a flagellant could make for a very, very interesting companion. Containing these living weapons - and perhaps helping them overcome their horrors could be provide some very interesting story opportunities.

 

This would probably warrant a new topic in itself, even if the monks are (most likely) very much set in stone.

[Rink]

If you don't like monks and if they are included in the game, then you will always have the possibility just not to take them with you, right? I am sure there are also people there that do not like priests (religious fanatics are sometimes hard to handle) or pure fighters (boring class) or rogues (why covardly sneak if you can run into the fight!).

 

I think monks are a nice addition as a class, because they offer another playstyle. Imho they do not have to play without armor. They can wear light armor that doesn't block their movements, they could find different meditation methods from churches/shrines around the fantasyworld that offer different bonuses for fists/body (you know, that would be like finding different weapons) and I think monks should have some spells as well (protection-spells from priest, self-buff-spells, maybe some offensive wizardspells that need a lot of mindpower to them as well). Then it wouldn't be a boring class to play at all.

But I think monks are great not only because they are different to play, but because they make excellent companions to write. There are so many games with stories of fighters, mages and rogues but I don't remember any well written monks at all (The dwarf from nwn2 doesn't count as monk to me - although definately well written ). I would like to see a very wise Minsk for example, rarely speaks, but when he speaks it is short, catchy and wise (would be funny to see word-fights against someone who is very intelligent). On a mission to recover the wisdom of old, send by his monastery (you later find out that the monastery and probably the old books don't exist anymore though and he still wants to fulfill his duty) Refuses to wear something on chest and head and makes remarks if you still try to make him wear something (that would of course be even funnier if it was a female monk with bare chest and of course later he has to disguise for main storyline and handle his fear of clothing and the lack of freedom it offers), funny dialogs in cold places because of the lack of clothing. It also would be funny if someone tries to "romance" this quiet, introverted, religious nerd and let out a conflict between religious celibacy and human affection and what witty ways he finds around one or the other. Anyway, I am sure most of you have better ideas than me, but I still think it could give a lot of options.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Rink

[Bill Gates' Son]

If you don't like monks and if they are included in the game, then you will always have the possibility just not to take them with you, right? I am sure there are also people there that do not like priests (religious fanatics are sometimes hard to handle) or pure fighters (boring class) or rogues (why covardly sneak if you can run into the fight!).

 

I think monks are a nice addition as a class, because they offer another playstyle. Imho they do not have to play without armor. They can wear light armor that doesn't block their movements, they could find different meditation methods from churches/shrines around the fantasyworld that offer different bonuses for fists/body (you know, that would be like finding different weapons) and I think monks should have some spells as well (protection-spells from priest, self-buff-spells, maybe some offensive wizardspells that need a lot of mindpower to them as well). Then it wouldn't be a boring class to play at all.

But I think monks are great not only because they are different to play, but because they make excellent companions to write. There are so many games with stories of fighters, mages and rogues but I don't remember any well written monks at all (The dwarf from nwn2 doesn't count as monk to me - although definately well written ). I would like to see a very wise Minsk for example, rarely speaks, but when he speaks it is short, catchy and wise (would be funny to see word-fights against someone who is very intelligent). On a mission to recover the wisdom of old, send by his monastery (you later find out that the monastery and probably the old books don't exist anymore though and he still wants to fulfull his duty) Refuses to wear something on chest and head and makes remarks if you still try to make him wear something (that would of course be even funnier if it was a female monk with bare chest and of course later he has to disguise for main storyline and handle his fear of clothing and the lack of freedom it offers), funny dialogs in cold places because of the lack of clothing. It also would be funny if someone tries to "romance" this quiet, introverted, religious nerd and let out a conflict between religious celibacy and human affection and what witty ways he finds around one or the other. Anyway, I am sure most of you have better ideas than me, but I still think it could give a lot of options.

 

You should definitely play Jade's Empire sometime. Sagacious Zu was definitely a smart and witty characters as far ss monk style characters go.

[NOK222]

Good for you. The first thing I'll do is make a Monk-be-gone mod.

 

Cool, bro.

 

You are assuming EVERYONE can punch/kick like that.

 

It probably takes years of punching trees too be able to punch like that.