Make Sure the Camera Gets Some Love

[Whiteblade999]

Project Eternity has the potential to be one of the best RPGs in a long, long time.

 

With that said I'm really hoping that Obsidian take the time to make sure the camera is not neglected. The best game to look for inspiration for this feature is Dragon Age: Origins. You could zoom the camera in and out smoothly, move with WASD like it felt natrual, jump between party members and that type of thing with pretty much no hassle, and there was no real issue on terrain obstruction. Too bad the rest of the game had a lot of problems between the terrible MMO combat and extended dungeon crawling for no reason.

 

I was really disappointed when I picked up Neverwinter Nights 2 and the camera felt like it was a complete and utter mess. There were 3 modes by Storm of Zehir that all felt clumsy and not at all fluid enough for a game of this type. Add in the camera getting stuck a lot more then it should and WASD having a really clunky feel and you have a mess. In contrat with Origins, this game was really good outside of the camera problems.

 

Anyone else feel the same way?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Whiteblade999

[Infinitron]

Where we're going, we don't need cameras.

 

...

 

Seriously, have you watched the Kickstarter pitch video?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC4w9GdFPrg

 

Skip to 2:11

Edited October 3, 2012 by Infinitron

[Hoverdog]

The best game to look for inspiration for this feature is Dragon Age: Origins.

 

[Jaesun]

Project Eternity has the potential to be one of the best RPGs in a long, long time.

 

With that said I'm really hoping that Obsidian take the time to make sure the camera is not neglected. The best game to look for inspiration for this feature is Dragon Age: Origins. You could zoom the camera in and out smoothly, move with WASD like it felt natrual, jump between party members and that type of thing with pretty much no hassle, and there was no real issue on terrain obstruction. Too bad the rest of the game had a lot of problems between the terrible MMO combat and extended dungeon crawling for no reason.

 

I was really disappointed when I picked up Neverwinter Nights 2 and the camera felt like it was a complete and utter mess. There were 3 modes by Storm of Zehir that all felt clumsy and not at all fluid enough for a game of this type. Add in the camera getting stuck a lot more then it should and WASD having a really clunky feel and you have a mess. In contrat with Origins, this game was really good outside of the camera problems.

 

Anyone else feel the same way?

 

Have you played any of the IE games? You do know that is the entire pitch of this game right?

 

Dragon Age: Origins

 

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!

Edited October 3, 2012 by Jaesun

[C2B]

Project Eternity has the potential to be one of the best RPGs in a long, long time.

 

With that said I'm really hoping that Obsidian take the time to make sure the camera is not neglected. The best game to look for inspiration for this feature is Dragon Age: Origins. You could zoom the camera in and out smoothly, move with WASD like it felt natrual, jump between party members and that type of thing with pretty much no hassle, and there was no real issue on terrain obstruction. Too bad the rest of the game had a lot of problems between the terrible MMO combat and extended dungeon crawling for no reason.

 

I was really disappointed when I picked up Neverwinter Nights 2 and the camera felt like it was a complete and utter mess. There were 3 modes by Storm of Zehir that all felt clumsy and not at all fluid enough for a game of this type. Add in the camera getting stuck a lot more then it should and WASD having a really clunky feel and you have a mess. In contrat with Origins, this game was really good outside of the camera problems.

 

Anyone else feel the same way?

 

As mentioned the game uses a fixed camera (maybe with zoom) from what we know.

[Jasede]

...what

[WorstUsernameEver]

The game uses a fixed camera, so no need to look for inspiration for anything outside of the Infinity Engine titles. Not sure why the camera system for Dragon Age: Origins gets any outrage though, as far as 3D party-based games go, it had pretty much the best camera system I've seen.

[Jasede]

The sheer mention of that game will throw any good Codexian into a blind fit of rage, as part of their duty towards fair Codexia, may she prosper everafter.

[DocDoomII]

The game should be 3D but with a isometric feeling camera, I think.

DA:O with the camera at max distance wasn't bad at all.

[soulmata]

As long as it feels intuitive, what does it matter what camera system is used?

 

"Fixed" camera is also a loaded term - "Fixed" can mean it is centered on the main character at a specific angle and cannot move from that point, or it could mean it is at a fixed distance/viewing angle, but can freely move along the X and Y axis. I believe the intention for PE is for the camera to behave like Infinity engine games - a fixed angle (and perhaps fixed distance), with no rotation available, but free movement along X/Y.

 

I personally prefer a free-rotating camera, since it lets you explore things from any angle you want and is just plain fun. The camera systems in DA:O, Rome: Total War (most of the Total War series actually) and others are examples of great use of a free camera - but that's not always feasible, particularly if you're using isometric rendering, or if you aren't actually using a fully three-dimensional environment.

Edited October 3, 2012 by soulmata

[Whiteblade999]

Well I feel stupid now, sort of dropped my money without watching the video, but instead based on Black Isle making it and assumed it would be another NWN2 type game. Guess there is nothing to worry about then.

 

The sheer mention of that game will throw any good Codexian into a blind fit of rage, as part of their duty towards fair Codexia, may she prosper everafter.

I expect rage from Codexians on anything that isn't Fallout, Arcanum or Torment (I've done my share of lurking there). Don't really care though, the game has the best 3D movable camera system and the rest of the game being average won't change that.

[rjshae]

It can actually be a pleasure to play a game where you are not having to constantly fiddle with the camera to get the best view.

[Infinitron]

Dragon Age's camera was decent yes. I suspect though that having a good camera is also (perhaps mainly) a matter of constructing maps that are easy to navigate with a free camera.

[DocDoomII]

More that the camera my concern is the visible area in general.

Torment and Baldur's Gate 1 had such a low resolution that the visible area was absolutely small.

I've recently installed Baldur's Gate Tutu with the widescreen mod, and I can say that now I have a great view, but at the cost of having really small characters and monsters at 1680x1050.

I hope, if the camera distance is fixed, that they manage to find a good compromise!

Edited October 3, 2012 by DocDoomII

[Archmage Silver]

It can actually be a pleasure to play a game where you are not having to constantly fiddle with the camera to get the best view.

I've played both extensively, and yeah, I agree with this. It doesn't matter that much when the game is good, but with a static camera you'll never wonder if you missed something because you were zoomed out too far or close. That said, I do like Origins too, it's a good game in my opinion. DA II was a disappointment for me though.

[Infinitron]

More that the camera my concern is the visible area in general.

Torment and Baldur's Gate 1 had such a low resolution that the visible area was absolutely small.

I've recently installed Baldur's Gate Tutu with the widescreen mod, and I can say that now I have a great view, but at the cost of having really small characters and monsters at 1680x1050.

I hope, if the camera distance is fixed, that they manage to find a good compromise!

 

Lower your resolution. 1280x800 is a good compromise.

[DocDoomII]

 

Lower your resolution. 1280x800 is a good compromise.

I prefer fullscreen, and the best results for fullscreen are at native screen resolution

[Infinitron]

Lower your resolution. 1280x800 is a good compromise.

I prefer fullscreen, and the best results for fullscreen are at native screen resolution

 

I don't know, non-native resolutions should look decent enough as long as they maintain 16:10 aspect ratio.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Infinitron

[Flying Magician]

If the camera will turn out to be as bad as in DA or NWN2, I won't even touch PE. I won't even bother myself with purchasing it from TPB. That's what I think about isometric games with fully rotatable 3D camera. Bonus negative points if it's also fixed to a character.

[Elthosian]

I just want to be able to enter most houses without silly charge-times, Arcanum and Fallout did this in an amazing way, Baldur's Gate and Torment did not...

[Waywocket]

I thought the camera in DA:O was unforgivable. It's clear that they never actually intended you to play the game with a pseudo-isometric viewpoint, and just added that in as a ticklist item; I can't think of many games where I've felt so much like I'm fighting the camera. Dragon Age also committed the crime of locking your viewport to the region immediately surrounding your characters. Overall it had the effect of making the game feel like a cheap console port, which might not be far from the truth now that I think about it.

 

In general, I've found that games which allow you to rotate the camera are universally awful, because the designers start building the levels on the basis that you're perfectly happy to be spinning the damn thing around every three seconds, making camera rotation completely non-optional. I never, ever, want to be required to mess about with a camera in order to play a game, unless you count scrolling the viewport.

 

(This issue is the number one reason that I don't like modern RPGs, even the ones which are generally highly regarded. The Witcher would probably have been a great isometric RPG; as it is I could never motivate myself to finish it.)

[Flying Magician]

I just want to be able to enter most houses without silly charge-times, Arcanum and Fallout did this in an amazing way, Baldur's Gate and Torment did not...

And what it has to do with camera?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Flying Magician

[Elthosian]

I just want to be able to enter most houses without silly charge-times, Arcanum and Fallout did this in an amazing way, Baldur's Gate and Torment did not...

And what it has to do with camera?

 

I related it to all the camera stuff as I suppose depending on how it is implemented, the transparent-roof thingie may or may not be as efficient, but yeah, maybe this should be it's own thread...

[Adhin]

It's Isometric with 2D pre-rendered backgrounds and 3D objects (monsters, NPC, maybe some animated stuff). The camera wont be spinnable due to the backgrounds. It might be zoomable, as mentioned, but it aint gonna rotate. So... yeah. The way infinity engines already handled its about as good as it gets, and that worked great. So...yup.

 

Also no load times for small houses and the like would be great.. definitely agree with that. Larger areas of dungeon's I get the load though.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Adhin

[soulmata]

With the amount of memory and CPU power at our disposal today, there's not much justification for separating indoor/city/wilderness/dungeon areas into separate maps, which are loaded/unloaded via some arbitrary transition. The only "real" justification would be conservation of detail when it came to scale - if there's 200 miles between town X and Y, the player doesn't neccesarily want to actually walk through 200 miles of wilderness, and would rather click on "Go to next map." That sort of problem, though, is easily solved through fast travel mechanisms or other sorts of transit systems - like slit striders in Morrowind or the trains in Arcanum.

 

If it was being done as far back as Ultima 6 & 7 (at least as far as the overworld was concerned - all above-world areas shared the same map with no transition, though underworlds and basements were separate maps), it can be done today.

 

All of this, though, is largely unrelated to camera work.

Edited October 3, 2012 by soulmata