Alternatives to Vancian or Cooldowns? Other suggestions?

[Metabot]

One more thing to add to what I said or to add on to the OP. Different difficulties would change how much fatigue is lost or how much the strength of spells and abilities decreases as you use them with one difficulty making into something very much like the vancian system.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Metabot

[SGray]

Any cooldown mechanics is broken to idea - "need to find some new nukes (from another school)". There won't be reasonable mages dedicated to smth in such setting, if it's not enforced. Master your fire knowledge, or stop at first viable spell and search other schools? Definitely second one in such conditions. Without school-based system its far worse though "more nukes to create rotation, and screw anything else", and, sadly, that'll work.

 

As for realism - i'm against degrading over time fatigue condition, and against fatigue stacking by minor actions. It shouldn't be an annoyance and should take part in the game only when you call it by yourself. Not "damn, i'm just walking by the street, wtf?" or "i've killed 3 rats and 5 fleas over 2 hours and he is exhausted??", but "well, that was tough fight, i could take some rest".

 

As for food & drinks - could be a resource, needed for rest. If more - will become annoying.

Edited October 3, 2012 by SGray

[TrashMan]

As for realism - i'm against degrading over time fatigue condition, and against fatigue stacking by minor actions. It shouldn't be an annoyance and should take part in the game only when you call it by yourself. Not "damn, i'm just walking by the street, wtf?" or "i've killed 3 rats and 5 fleas over 2 hours and he is exhausted??", but "well, that was tough fight, i could take some rest".

 

As for food & drinks - could be a resource, needed for rest. If more - will become annoying.

 

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you?

 

Fatigue makes sense and isn't tedious. And b.t.w. - I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you.

[DocDoomII]

Lurking around these kind of topics is making me wonder if I'm the only one who actually liked IE games spell memorization...

I feel lonely!

[Living One]

Lurking around these kind of topics is making me wonder if I'm the only one who actually liked IE games spell memorization...

I feel lonely!

You're not,but when you read about LARPers getting all 'emushonal' about the back-story they made up themeselves about their characters and their mules while disregarding game mechanics(you know the medium's language...such petty details compared to teh emushonz of LARPing) as a mere annoiance between them and their 'emushonal engajment' losing some IQ points and getting depressed about humanity and not bothering is an obvious outcome.

[Merin]

Lurking around these kind of topics is making me wonder if I'm the only one who actually liked IE games spell memorization...

I feel lonely!

 

Ha! If nothing else, watching these forums the last couple weeks should let you know there are some very staunch supporters of Vancian.

 

Talk of D&D Next also showed me how much D&D fans love Vancian.

 

It certainly has it's supporters. Don't despair!

[Shadenuat]

So I've read an update, particularly that part

 

And though any wizard may prepare several tomes, an inexperienced caster is not capable of channeling power through the log-thick, anvil-heavy, dog-eared grimoires of wizened archmagi. Such novices must alternate between more modest selections, relying on their less demanding spells and talents when they are unable to call upon their tomes.

 

and I was wondering.

 

How do you guys feel if there would be a possibility of creating your own spellbook? For example, remember how Nameless One made his own through a series of quests and dialogue, and even was commented by a mage at Sensorium how crappy his spellbook looked. How about a possibility of carrying multiple spellbooks, or grabbing enemy spellbook after his death? Maybe that's something to concider with idea of specific "suits" of prepared spells.

 

Of course maybe I'm just on the wrong track here and stuff would be done differently.

[DocDoomII]

So I've read an update, particularly that part

 

And though any wizard may prepare several tomes, an inexperienced caster is not capable of channeling power through the log-thick, anvil-heavy, dog-eared grimoires of wizened archmagi. Such novices must alternate between more modest selections, relying on their less demanding spells and talents when they are unable to call upon their tomes.

 

and I was wondering.

 

How do you guys feel if there would be a possibility of creating your own spellbook? For example, remember how Nameless One made his own through a series of quests and dialogue, and even was commented by a mage at Sensorium how crappy his spellbook looked. How about a possibility of carrying multiple spellbooks, or grabbing enemy spellbook after his death? Maybe that's something to concider with idea of specific "suits" of prepared spells.

 

Of course maybe I'm just on the wrong track here and stuff would be done differently.

 

I support the idea of looting enemies' spellbooks. But I would like to find spell that I cannot learn instantly and need more xp/soul/skillpoints(?) so that a spellbook wouldn't just be a "uh, a new tome! *right click -> learn* uh I got 5 new spells" item.

[Jaesun]

So I've read an update, particularly that part

 

And though any wizard may prepare several tomes, an inexperienced caster is not capable of channeling power through the log-thick, anvil-heavy, dog-eared grimoires of wizened archmagi. Such novices must alternate between more modest selections, relying on their less demanding spells and talents when they are unable to call upon their tomes.

 

and I was wondering.

 

How do you guys feel if there would be a possibility of creating your own spellbook? For example, remember how Nameless One made his own through a series of quests and dialogue, and even was commented by a mage at Sensorium how crappy his spellbook looked. How about a possibility of carrying multiple spellbooks, or grabbing enemy spellbook after his death? Maybe that's something to concider with idea of specific "suits" of prepared spells.

 

Of course maybe I'm just on the wrong track here and stuff would be done differently.

 

That would be grand.

[Osvir]

So I've read an update, particularly that part

 

And though any wizard may prepare several tomes, an inexperienced caster is not capable of channeling power through the log-thick, anvil-heavy, dog-eared grimoires of wizened archmagi. Such novices must alternate between more modest selections, relying on their less demanding spells and talents when they are unable to call upon their tomes.

 

and I was wondering.

 

How do you guys feel if there would be a possibility of creating your own spellbook? For example, remember how Nameless One made his own through a series of quests and dialogue, and even was commented by a mage at Sensorium how crappy his spellbook looked. How about a possibility of carrying multiple spellbooks, or grabbing enemy spellbook after his death? Maybe that's something to concider with idea of specific "suits" of prepared spells.

 

Of course maybe I'm just on the wrong track here and stuff would be done differently.

 

This is great :D

 

I generally like this whole concept of fatigue (and Breathe as well, mentioned in some post).

 

EDIT:

My idea of a hybrid system thing I guess:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60996-abc-magic/

 

Also something else:

Emotional about their characters and their mules.

 

I couldn't resist linking to this one xD

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60995-pack-a-mule/

Edited October 4, 2012 by Osvir

[Streamlock]

Just to interject for a second-didn't one of the devs, or more then one comment in one of the initial videos/interviews how being restricted to the D&D mechanics made making PS:T and some other titles a real pain the arse and limited what they thought they could accomplish gameplay wise? Them ditching the system was surely to be expected. And not neccessarily for the worse.

 

I'm not into going full cooldown (In the voice of Robert Downey Jr. "You never go full cooldown") unless Obsidian has something fancy up thier sleave with it....But I'm not going to hold them over the fire for going a different direction when they said straight up that was a goal from the start......So long as it's not some damnable wanna-be console, watered down, MMO immatating, button mashfest cooldown system at least. Oh I'm sorry, wanna-be console, watered down, MMO immatating, button mashfest with formations. I was actually hoping for something a little creative and original, designed for the PC crowed from the start and maybe entertwined with the whole soul mechanicl thing. Meh.

[DCParry]

As for realism - i'm against degrading over time fatigue condition, and against fatigue stacking by minor actions. It shouldn't be an annoyance and should take part in the game only when you call it by yourself. Not "damn, i'm just walking by the street, wtf?" or "i've killed 3 rats and 5 fleas over 2 hours and he is exhausted??", but "well, that was tough fight, i could take some rest".

 

As for food & drinks - could be a resource, needed for rest. If more - will become annoying.

 

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you?

 

Fatigue makes sense and isn't tedious. And b.t.w. - I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you.

 

If I can't make the bathroom button comment, you can't keep making these "real world" argument. Fair? This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator.

[Osvir]

This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator.

 

This. I completely agree.

 

Then again, apart from not being a camping simulator, it is a role-playing game involving adventuring. I would even like to say advanced adventuring in a fantasy setting. Not only is "camping" a resource that any adventurer or explorer uses, but it is highly important for them as well.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Osvir

[TrashMan]

As for realism - i'm against degrading over time fatigue condition, and against fatigue stacking by minor actions. It shouldn't be an annoyance and should take part in the game only when you call it by yourself. Not "damn, i'm just walking by the street, wtf?" or "i've killed 3 rats and 5 fleas over 2 hours and he is exhausted??", but "well, that was tough fight, i could take some rest".

 

As for food & drinks - could be a resource, needed for rest. If more - will become annoying.

 

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you?

 

Fatigue makes sense and isn't tedious. And b.t.w. - I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you.

 

If I can't make the bathroom button comment, you can't keep making these "real world" argument. Fair? This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator.

 

 

Nope. The reason you can't maek the bathroom comment is because it makes no sense and is a false somment. I could use your own (flawed) logic to denounce pretty much every single realistic thing in the game. Ya know..because it's not a simulator...so why have any limits at all?

 

What does a bathroom break add? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to manage, there is no tactical impact, there is NOTHING to think about. It's an action that takes a minute and can easily fall under "camping".

 

Rest on the other hand does have a strategic/tactical impact. It does open new possibiltes and avenues.

[Bloody Hypocrite]

Posted this in another thread, but it also applies here;

I'm not sure if anyone has ever played it, but I did enjoy the magic system from Realmz. It's a spell point based system, but allows the player to pick the magnitude or power level of the spell being cast. It also allowed the caster to prepare a certain amount of scrolls at a greater cost outside of combat, making it into a sort spell point vancian combo.

[DCParry]

As for realism - i'm against degrading over time fatigue condition, and against fatigue stacking by minor actions. It shouldn't be an annoyance and should take part in the game only when you call it by yourself. Not "damn, i'm just walking by the street, wtf?" or "i've killed 3 rats and 5 fleas over 2 hours and he is exhausted??", but "well, that was tough fight, i could take some rest".

 

As for food & drinks - could be a resource, needed for rest. If more - will become annoying.

 

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you?

 

Fatigue makes sense and isn't tedious. And b.t.w. - I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you.

 

If I can't make the bathroom button comment, you can't keep making these "real world" argument. Fair? This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator.

 

 

Nope. The reason you can't maek the bathroom comment is because it makes no sense and is a false somment. I could use your own (flawed) logic to denounce pretty much every single realistic thing in the game. Ya know..because it's not a simulator...so why have any limits at all?

 

What does a bathroom break add? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to manage, there is no tactical impact, there is NOTHING to think about. It's an action that takes a minute and can easily fall under "camping".

 

Rest on the other hand does have a strategic/tactical impact. It does open new possibiltes and avenues.

 

No, see, this just proves you don't particularly care for any sort of real discussion. That is fine, just be honest with yourself.

 

First, resting in and of itself MEANS NOTHING. It only has relevance if the designers have made resting necessary for the setting and mechanics. Your poorly edited posts about the relevance of the real, biological need to rest add no more to the argument than making jokes about a bathroom button. I can invent strategic scenarios for the bathroom if you want. Should you go in pairs in case of owl bear attack? What if the camp is attacked while two party members are off doing their taxes in the woods? Did you buy rations with enough fiber? If not your bathroom visit will be shorter for a couple days, but super long for on day. Also, what about fruit? Does scurvy have any effect on combat effectiveness?

 

Stop acting like one argument to realism is better than another, it isn't. You can use it as an example , but you have spouting off about real world this whole thread. I know, setting up camp can be important in an RPG, but if you were playing a PnP and had to travel three weeks to edge of another country, would you stop and play out every night's camp? I sure as hell hope not. You could play out a specific one if there was an encounter planned, but having to only march 4 hours because your wizard passed when he cast a cantrip to clean the lunch dishes just sounds like a waste of programming to me.

 

These sorts of things can be mitigated in a PnP by common sense and human intervention. They can't in a cRPG. You could have an encounter while traveling a long distance that spawns a conversation where you decide who will stand watch for a specific incident and that is fine and cool and interesting and such. Doing it every night for a 3 week journey would make any travel take an absurd amount of time.

 

Stop fixating on mechanics for mechanics sake. The mechanics are a tool for telling a compelling and interesting story. Are the important? Hell yes. Are the integral? Definitely, since they provide some of the bare bones for story telling. They should not, however, be such a barrier to telling a story. Resting, and a resting mechanic, is not necessarily a barrier, but there are other things to do in an cRPG.

Edited October 4, 2012 by DCParry

[TrashMan]

Nope. The reason you can't maek the bathroom comment is because it makes no sense and is a false somment. I could use your own (flawed) logic to denounce pretty much every single realistic thing in the game. Ya know..because it's not a simulator...so why have any limits at all?

 

What does a bathroom break add? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to manage, there is no tactical impact, there is NOTHING to think about. It's an action that takes a minute and can easily fall under "camping".

 

Rest on the other hand does have a strategic/tactical impact. It does open new possibiltes and avenues.

 

No, see, this just proves you don't particularly care for any sort of real discussion. That is fine, just be honest with yourself.

 

No, what it proves is that you don't know anything, nor do you care to employ your grey cells.

I'm all for discussions, but I don't waste my time on discussing things like "it water wet?"

 

 

First, resting in and of itself MEANS NOTHING. It only has relevance if the designers have made resting necessary for the setting and mechanics. Your poorly edited posts about the relevance of the real, biological need to rest add no more to the argument than making jokes about a bathroom button. I can invent strategic scenarios for the bathroom if you want. Should you go in pairs in case of owl bear attack? What if the camp is attacked while two party members are off doing their taxes in the woods? Did you buy rations with enough fiber? If not your bathroom visit will be shorter for a couple days, but super long for on day. Also, what about fruit? Does scurvy have any effect on combat effectiveness?

 

Wrong. Reast means something. Because in itself it offers a lot of POTENTIAL for added strategic and teactical additions and impacts.

Goign to the bathroom does not (unless you want to make a crapping mini-game, but I don't see how that would have any impact on the adventure as a whole)

 

Stop acting like one argument to realism is better than another, it isn't.

 

Yes it is. Because one addition makes sense and adds itneresting posibilities, and other doesn't.

 

 

You can use it as an example , but you have spouting off about real world this whole thread. I know, setting up camp can be important in an RPG, but if you were playing a PnP and had to travel three weeks to edge of another country, would you stop and play out every night's camp? I sure as hell hope not.

 

It isn't necessary. Traveling from city to city is pretty much a time skip (with a probabiltiy of chance encounter), usually along well-treaded roads. Not much of interest happening.

Camping/resting for long trips is taken for granted.

[Valorian]

No, see, this just proves you don't particularly care for any sort of real discussion. That is fine, just be honest with yourself.

 

Oh the irony. You're the one who's not interested in any sort of real discussion.. when you bring to the table absurdities such as the wc button to "prove" that realism is not important in RP fantasy games.

[Amentep]

The thing about camping - to me - that can make it interesting is trying to find "good" places to camp, setting up the camp and watch to be defend-able. That chance that something might happen in the night and you're scrambling to prepare (or unprepared if your guards miss something sneaking into camp).

 

I'm not convinced camping is interesting solely because that's when your mages get their groove back (Vancian system) but that doesn't mean camping in itself couldn't be interesting.

 

Now the thing about expelling waste products (whichever, your choice) is that they create mini-situations where you're character could be incredibly vulnerable.

 

But the question should be "what is fun?" in dealing with any game mechanics. I can't imagine dealing with six character and having to manage their bathroom schedules and their rest schedules and they can only pick new magic when they're visiting the outhouse reading their spellbook (or something like that) is going to end up being fun. Unless the game is about Sims style character control and not fantasy roleplaying with a storyline.

 

I've tried to ponder an style of magics and pretty much everything either comes to some form of Vancian (replinish by rest, replinish by spell components, X spells per day), Mana pool (can't cast if tired) or cooldowns (Fireballs online in 10...9...8...). Not much help I'm afraid.

[SGray]

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you?

If i've done 99 of them last week, and today after next cast i'll tire - nope, not enough. Same for traveling, same for beeng indefinite time in places where you can not sleep, but can perfectly rest (real world meaning). That's possible to solve by enforcing constant in-game time flow, regarding quests, characters, etc. Is that really what you want? Is it easy to implement, balance? Is it really universally fun to play? (Rare times i liked implementation of time-dependent quests.)

 

Fatigue makes sense

Ever argued this? ))

 

I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you.

As for real life - third day you wearing 3-layered chainmail (with short sleeves, my case), you won't much notice it on your shoulders. Anything thiner and/or you are more used to, and you wouldn't notice any change from normal daily fatigue at all. And there could be a simple cloth west on hero.

 

What does a bathroom break add? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to manage, there is no tactical impact, there is NOTHING to think about.

...

Because one addition makes sense and adds itneresting posibilities, and other doesn't.

Exactly. How more adds daily rest if you're not significantly exausted, and almost as battle-ready as usual?

 

The thing about camping - to me - that can make it interesting is trying to find "good" places to camp, setting up the camp and watch to be defend-able. That chance that something might happen in the night and you're scrambling to prepare (or unprepared if your guards miss something sneaking into camp).

...

Now the thing about expelling waste products (whichever, your choice) is that they create mini-situations where you're character could be incredibly vulnerable.

But the question should be "what is fun?" in dealing with any game mechanics.

Perfect point. If every one is battleready, just waiting to crush unlucky trespassers that place or another, defendable or not - that's dull, and routine. Completely other thing when your teem really needs rest and much more vulnerable. Why to let repeating dull things be and require player attention? Can't hero handle himself in not extreme situation without player directions?

 

On my thought, fatigue shall only stack when character is outperforming usual/routine to him. (breath&fatigue system, for example)

Mage apprentice with 5 strength in full plate armor? Yep, he'll fall from his legs fast enough.

Born-in-chainvest 9-10 str warrior - would not notice such armor at all.

 

Seasoned warrior, boredly and methodically chopping another single low lvl goblin? Nope, nothing unusual, no exhaustion.

Same warrior fending off goblin horde, fighting with giant, or in need to finish this goblin as quickly as possible to help surrounded fellow mage? Yes, that's demanding - deal with your exhaustion.

 

Low lvl mage casting fireball - after that he'll be no much use.

Archmage, doing same with finger snap - will forget about this in a minute.

Same archmage forced to cast same fireball 3 times in a row - will complain about not wanting to do so again, and'll suffer some fatigue. Same with spamming sparks, magic missiles or anything else.

 

It's demanding for young mage to hold anti-missile veil.

For archmage it's as natural as breathing. Not so, if he already supports number of defense barriers, or casting something else.

Same for deflecting arrows with shield for warriors.

 

So, no need to deal with routine, but interesting mechanics when you're pushed to your limit by any ways possible.

Edited October 4, 2012 by SGray

[TrashMan]

If i've done 99 of them last week, and today after next cast i'll tire - nope, not enough. Same for traveling, same for beeng indefinite time in places where you can not sleep, but can perfectly rest (real world meaning). That's possible to solve by enforcing constant in-game time flow, regarding quests, characters, etc. Is that really what you want? Is it easy to implement, balance? Is it really universally fun to play? (Rare times i liked implementation of time-dependent quests.)

 

Yes, it is enough. You jsut dont' get the system, do you?

 

 

 

 

I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you.

As for real life - third day you wearing 3-layered chainmail (with short sleeves, my case), you won't much notice it on your shoulders. Anything thiner and/or you are more used to, and you wouldn't notice any change from normal daily fatigue at all. And there could be a simple cloth west on hero.

 

You will fatigue even if you go around naked. The armor is not the point. It just increases your fatigue generation, but it happens without it.

You can sit in your house all day doing nothing and by the end of the day you will still be tired.

 

 

 

Exactly. How more adds daily rest if you're not significantly exausted, and almost as battle-ready as usual?

 

Point is that you won't be. You WILL be exhausted after 20 hours of wlakign around, even if you didn't cast a single spell the entire day.

Everything you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed drains your fatigue - slowly but surely.

 

 

 

 

Born-in-chainvest 9-10 str warrior - would not notice such armor at all.

Seasoned warrior, boredly and methodically chopping another single low lvl goblin? Nope, nothing unusual, no exhaustion.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

[FlintlockJazz]

I like it TrashMan, it's a lot like the standard magic system in GURPS and how it ties into their fatigue system too.

Edited October 5, 2012 by FlintlockJazz

[metiman]

In general I like the idea of fatigue based magic systems. They have excellent narrative justification and they integrate quite well into other aspects of the game. Fighters and and Rangers and Thieves can also have fatigue pools, although they should probably refill a lot faster during a pause in combat. I mean, how much swinging of a two handed sword can a mortal do in one day? Probably a lot, but there are still (Strength / Endurance based) limits.

[Vulcris]

I never liked D&D magic system but talking of "Rest spamming" in IE games is in my mind a fasle problem and boils down to lazy design from the developpers.

 

It's because the gaming world in IE doesn't react to the rest mechanism that there is a problem.

 

If your party decide to leave halfway through a dungeon populated by drows to sleep, you should expect those drows to mount a hunting party and if the pcs casualy sleep in the open that should lead to a depleasant surprise. If they do the same in some caves infested by Kobolds, the kobolds should prepare some traps, or flee if they have the occasion. A bandit chief could flee with his treasure during the pcs rest, letting his men to dye and cover his flee. That open a lots of possibilities.

 

A rpg is about choices. You should be able to rest when you want but those rests should have some consequences. Ennemies should regroup wich means for the player having to choose between going on in a battered state or being rested but having to face bigger groups ready and waiting for them.

[Osvir]

Resting/Sleeping, in real life:

 

* 12-13 hours is about as much as we can sleep (tops) in a row

* I personally get a headache from this much sleep

* My own record of being awake is 52 Hours before totally, entirely, completely, passing out.

 

Resting/Sleeping, in IE:

 

* No boundaries

* I can be awake for 4000000000 hours

* I can sleep for 4000000000 hours

 

What actually happens, in IE on my playthrough:

 

* Awake for 3 hours

* Sleep for 8 hours

* Awake for 3 hours

* Sleep for 8 hours

* Awake for 3 hours

 

Mechanically it isn't even plausible. I dare anyone here to try and sleep this entire weekend without waking up without a headache, are you sensible for the sake of science you'll report scientifically back here properly.

 

I want to see a limitation to the rest function.

 

IE Games

08:00 AM: Just woke up, ready for some adventuring!

09:00 AM: Gyaargh! This armor, the mage, everything is sooooo~~ heavy and tiresome. I need to sleep...

03:00 PM: Mmm what a good rest.

04:00 PM: Gyaaargh!!! Zzzzz....

12:00 PM: Midnight already????? Pfft adventuring into the night! Have at thee night!

In this scenario/example, one in-game day has passed awfully fast. I am just outside Candlekeep and all of this managed to happen.

 

What I am suggesting (As well as TrashMan and many others I think)

08:00 AM: Mm just woke up, time for some adventuring!

02:00 PM: Mid-day... pheeuuwee, need to rest up.

04:00 PM: Alright, let's move on.

10:00 PM: Zzz, time to get some rest

Example: In this game I managed to get to the Friendly Arm's Inn and leave it. In this scenario you wouldn't be able to rest, maybe it would be limited to a 2 time click in a row then a 6 hour in-game cooldown.

 

Doing it every night for a 3 week journey would make any travel take an absurd amount of time.

Sleeping for 16 hours and being awake for 8 hours, every day, for 3 weeks straight is going to take it's toll as well.

 

What is most authentic?

Edited October 5, 2012 by Osvir