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Alternatives to Vancian or Cooldowns? Other suggestions?

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I would argue it is best to fix things than remove them. If one simply removed items that were not implemented perfectly, you end up with less features. If you improve things, you end up with more features that are great.

 

I would love to see them implement rest well in this game. It HAS been done well in the past and it could be done well now. They are not going Vancian, but I could see the value of using rest as a mechanic whereby players could use rest to recover morale, fatigue, heal wounds/ailments, gather herbs, hunt and prepare their slate of spells (even if spell uses regen, perhaps spell swapping could be done at camp).

 

The main thing, I think, is to add risk/reward to resting and to severely limit saving since the real culprit, I think, is overuse of save/load ("oops, that rest resulted in my getting ambushed, well, I will just reload...").

 

I agree, but we should ask what is the point is resting as well. Does it serve any useful purpose? Do we miraculously heal multiple head and upper injuries after a good nights sleep? Will there be a rules that will send you into a coma if you rest right after a fight where you received a head injury? Is sleep the only way to regen soul energy, or whatever we use to magic stuff? If we are moving away from a memorization based magic system (and I hope we are), then the point of resting needs to be re-evaluated. Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it?

 

I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.

 

Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.


* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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He and the party go traveling. They've been on the road for 2 hours and the mages maximum fatigue has gone down, so now he's at 90/90.

 

Max fatigue goes down as the day goes by and as you do physicly demanding things (long journesy, running, etc..). Even if you don't cast any spells, you will need sleep.

 

Resting should be a part of any true RPG. It gives inns and villages a clear purpose. It is a safe haven to gather information, prepare, stock up, rest and heal.

 

See, to me, this just sounds tedious. Resting was really only included when it served a functional purpose. A functional purpose that was ported from a different medium into CRPG's. There is nothing inherent in resting that enriches an RPG. Inns and such serve whatever purpose the devs want them to serve. They can still be places to gather and interact, but pressing a rest button has always struck me as a strange, artificial action. Do I have to press the "use the bathroom" button as well?

 

 

Tedious? Dude, try traveling for the whole day and telling me resting is pointless.

 

It has purpsoe. It has worth.

 

Not only does it make the world more real, it also fulfils a logical purpose and gives towns and inns more character.

 

 

And that "bathroom" bit is getting old. An argument that never worked because it can be extended to everything.

 

Yes, in real life it is necessary. However, I would rather experience other things besides setting up a camp in an RPG. Again, resting only makes sense if there is a reason for it. There has to be benefit beyond "being able to march another day". Pressing the button to "camp" is not an engaging or exiting experience, beyond the expectation of an attack.

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.

 

Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.

 

Ah here we go.

 

The thing is, you can't.

 

CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.

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I would argue it is best to fix things than remove them. If one simply removed items that were not implemented perfectly, you end up with less features. If you improve things, you end up with more features that are great.

 

I would love to see them implement rest well in this game. It HAS been done well in the past and it could be done well now. They are not going Vancian, but I could see the value of using rest as a mechanic whereby players could use rest to recover morale, fatigue, heal wounds/ailments, gather herbs, hunt and prepare their slate of spells (even if spell uses regen, perhaps spell swapping could be done at camp).

 

The main thing, I think, is to add risk/reward to resting and to severely limit saving since the real culprit, I think, is overuse of save/load ("oops, that rest resulted in my getting ambushed, well, I will just reload...").

 

I agree, but we should ask what is the point is resting as well. Does it serve any useful purpose? Do we miraculously heal multiple head and upper injuries after a good nights sleep? Will there be a rules that will send you into a coma if you rest right after a fight where you received a head injury? Is sleep the only way to regen soul energy, or whatever we use to magic stuff? If we are moving away from a memorization based magic system (and I hope we are), then the point of resting needs to be re-evaluated. Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it?

 

I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.

 

The point of resting is as a means of mitigating whatever forms of attrition devs throw at us. Games need attrition as a means of making small encounter worth a damn. They must tire you out in some ways but players should have some means to recouperate at least partially prior to a big fight. In other words, the point of resting is to rest. So long as there is risk involved, rest is good and doesnt devolve into rest spamming,

 

It can serve other purposes too. So, would you rather recover a bunch of fatigue or perhaps spend some time near camp gathering herbs? Who will you have keep watch, if they keep watch, they will not recover as much, etc. If you have no one keep watch, you are likely to be ambushed. What do you do?

 

I would argue they should allow players to swap spells only at camp to prevent cheese like casting a buff or summoning something and then swapping it out and insta regening charges.

 

They do not need to time quests. All they have to do is as time passes in game or as players do things, add to a player's fatigue. Players could mitigate some of that with their constitution score. That is simple. BG 1/2 managed to do it. Also, they could make it so magic does not wipe away disease or poison in the blink of an eye. Some ailments could require curatives that must be gathered and/or applied at camp.

 

This could be pretty great if done well.

Edited by Shevek

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.

 

Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.

 

Ah here we go.

 

The thing is, you can't.

 

CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.

 

Games have done what you say they haven't.

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Well spoken, DCParry! For all of us who have played these computer games since the 80s soon realized that "resting" in a digital game context was nothing like resting in a session of pen-n-paper role playing.

 

Then make it more like resting in a PnP session.

 

Ah here we go.

 

The thing is, you can't.

 

CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.

 

Games have done what you say they haven't.

 

Well, no, I can promise you no game has ever replicated my experience from PnP D&D.

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No one else's PnP experience has replicated anyone else's PnP experience either. That is a poor comparison.

Edited by Shevek

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Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it?

 

Not necessarily. BG didn't have timed quests ( not that I tihnk timed quests are wrong. I'd love a few), but that character did get fatigued if you went a long time without resting.

 

 

I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.

 

Worked great for Jagged Alliance and in that game you can have up to 18 people.


* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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Where does this "my mage has to do something every battle" come from?

 

Besides, how badly do you use your mages if yours didn't? You can buy as many wands as you like. Then there's magical slings and darts.

 

Do you really want a game where your mage casts a spell every round? Boring and repetitive.

 

Edit: Scrolls, anyone?

I get why people would want it in games where you essentially only control one character like Kotor and dragon age. Even though you can switch between them, its really clunky and you are always only controlling one of them. But in an isometric game, I don't get it either. We are controlling the whole party. It's not like its 6 players each controlling one character and the poor mage player has to sit in the corner.

Edited by ogrezilla

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Just think of NWN2, there resting was just a countdown, which certainly gives the countdown-discussion an interesting twist.

By "interesting" you mean awful, right? My memory of NWN2 OC is thankfully hazy, but from what I remember it took much of the challenge from the game - just click a button and suddenly everyone is healed and all spells and abilities are restored. Compare that to the MoTB where resting actually advances time 8 hours, something that is a problem because of the spirit hunger - now that is what I call interesting.

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Just think of NWN2, there resting was just a countdown, which certainly gives the countdown-discussion an interesting twist.

By "interesting" you mean awful, right? My memory of NWN2 OC is thankfully hazy, but from what I remember it took much of the challenge from the game - just click a button and suddenly everyone is healed and all spells and abilities are restored. Compare that to the MoTB where resting actually advances time 8 hours, something that is a problem because of the spirit hunger - now that is what I call interesting.

 

:D

 

Yes, I meant awful, coz it filled no real purpose. But, mind you, I'm a huge fan of NWN2 OC too. It has nothing on MotB, though.


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Where does this "my mage has to do something every battle" come from?

 

Besides, how badly do you use your mages if yours didn't? You can buy as many wands as you like. Then there's magical slings and darts.

 

Do you really want a game where your mage casts a spell every round? Boring and repetitive.

 

Edit: Scrolls, anyone?

I get why people would want it in games where you essentially only control one character like Kotor and dragon age. Even though you can switch between them, its really clunky and you are always only controlling one of them. But in an isometric game, I don't get it either. We are controlling the whole party. It's not like its 6 players each controlling one character and the poor mage player has to sit in the corner.

 

Even in party-based games many folks identify with their PC in a way that they don't identify with companions and like that character to contribute. That said, my concern is less how powerful mages are than class balance, which can be achieved in a variety of ways.

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Where does this "my mage has to do something every battle" come from?

 

Besides, how badly do you use your mages if yours didn't? You can buy as many wands as you like. Then there's magical slings and darts.

 

Do you really want a game where your mage casts a spell every round? Boring and repetitive.

 

Edit: Scrolls, anyone?

I get why people would want it in games where you essentially only control one character like Kotor and dragon age. Even though you can switch between them, its really clunky and you are always only controlling one of them. But in an isometric game, I don't get it either. We are controlling the whole party. It's not like its 6 players each controlling one character and the poor mage player has to sit in the corner.

 

Even in party-based games many folks identify with their PC in a way that they don't identify with companions and like that character to contribute. That said, my concern is less how powerful mages are than class balance, which can be achieved in a variety of ways.

fair enough. I wouldn't be against the ability to specialize a mage so that they are more consistently casting low to mid level spells as long as the option to have the classic mage is still available too.

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Thought myself about "2 types of fatigue" system. Current (breath), and overall - fatigue.

Breath is very limited - less than required for 1-st lvl spell for 1-st lvl mage, restores quite fast but not instant. Couple of 0-lvl sparks could be cast in a row, then breath depletes, but not too long until it's enough to cast another one.

You are not forbidden to cast more when your breath is out, or to cast more powerful spell that you can with only your breath, but there it starts taking from fatigue and appears cast time (non linearly scaling mb), and, probably, chance of failure, based on how far over your breath you trying to perform. The more you're fatigued - the less breath you have, prob less fast it restores. After some more lvls of fatigue you suffer some minuses to spell power, spell failure chance, minuses to defense.

 

So what do we have here about magic:

  • Persistent spells could be easily implemented, taking part of your breath bar. (Liked that in DA) Should cost some breath to activate, i think. More than that, you could up as much shields/auras/summons as you want, but, if you overextend yourself - they'll fall by themselves after a minute, left you unprotected and with trembling hands.

  • Memorizable/Prepared spells could be easily implemented. Prepared spells take normal breath, unprepared are castable, but cost twice or trice more. That means you could still cast that desperately needed flame shield/cure poison but it'll take time and endurance to do so in counter to prepared ones, so you'll have to think. 0-lvl sparks or magic missiles could be not fatiguing for higher lvl mages even if not memorized. Only if not spammed, due to times more breath reqired. (still could spam it, if you are archmage and prepared magic missile instead of smth more high lvl, and that's good)

  • Mage novice could possibly cast his fireball after couple of hours of preparations and casting, after success or not - he'll be deadly fatigued. Archmage is not limited to number of sparks and can show some spectacle without catching his breath, but he could tire if it's city wide.

  • Even most tired mage can possibly squeeze out of himself another magic missile, but he'll prefer not to be ever in such state.

  • In-design mechanics and lore for epic/quest spells, spells requiring more-than-one-man/artifacts/potions to cast, battlefield wise spells ("hold off them for awhile!"), last-hope-spells and so on. Simply high breath cost.

  • Qute a place for perks/abilities/modificators to show off. Breath consumption/restoration/quantity, performing out of breath/reliability of such, easing fatigue consequences, etc. Fine place to implement soul differences too.

What's in it game-wide:

Almost everything said above could be applied to fighter or rogue class. Spending breath for weapon swings (amount depending on weapon), parry(? based on enemy weapon), special moves/strikes. Not novice warrior easily can stand at his full breath fighting with someone usual (not giant, for example). If not to take in account battle stances, passive modes, and armor he is wearing. Seasoned warrior can chop with his ax for quite a long time. Not so if he had to focus on where he steps, be ready for enemy sneak attacks and block incoming missiles/spells by his shield. He can hold in described above situation, but if he needs to attack somehow or perform some feints - he'll get exhausted quite soon. Same for fending off multiple enemies.

 

And the last, but most important - variety of roles could be achieved without any additions to mechanics.

Battlemage, wearing plate mail enchanted himself to the max, seldomly casting spells, relying mostly on the sword, but beeng able to throw fireball if really needed...

Rogue-mage, in light armor, running fast and bursting his enemies with medium lvl fire or melph's arrows...

Mage, in classic concentration enhancing robe, standing, carefully casting smth like great withering from behind of his teammates while they fight...

Agile warrior, with two swords, able to do extreme feints, roll up to enemy, disarm or cripple their limbs...

Warrior, with sword and shield, able to stand surrounded by enemies...

Barbarian, able to shred his opponents in seconds, but other second being almost dead/deadly tired...

Archer, flooding air with arrows, or relying on single precisely aimed shot...

Quite a few to name )

 

P.S. Just imagine party of heroes, exhausted after won great battle, almost falling where they stand, but forced to run from bunch of goblin scavengers, and having trouble defending themselves from most impudent of them. While whole goblin tribe could be slain by one of those heroes, if only they were fresh. And "fair" ritual duel between adventurer's best warrior and goblin chief, for others could rest...

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Resting is one of those mechanics that, on its own, doesn't offer all that much to a game.

 

HOWEVER... once you add that level of realism, it only makes sense to keep adding layers to it.

 

 

 

For instance, if you can just sleep after every fight with only a marginal chance of getting attacked, why not do it all of the time? Okay, so that means you should add a food/hunger mechanic, where if the party doesn't bring a metric ton of foodstuffs with them, they can't afford to rest all of the time or they will be hit by starvation penalties. But if you can just buy a ton of food all the time, that just seems like a easy work around, so you'd need to have a weight system, since there should be a way to prevent the party from having all the food they could ever need for the entire game (and then some) carried around at all times. But if you build in a weight mechanism, you'll have to balance game economy to this, since now you can't pick up every piece of waepon or armor you come across to sell, which means there will be less money, or you will spend time going back and forth between a dungeon, taking pieces at a time. Which means you will have to address disappearing corpses/loot and respawning enemies...

 

...the further down the rabbit hole you go, the more detailed it can become. Which is great - but only if the mechanics are done well AND well explained. If you try and plan ahead by buying a lot of food right up front, but find that you don't have enough gold to buy equipment that you thought you could live without for a while, or you can no longer bribe the orc at the first bridge outside of town and have to fight him (and get your butt handed to you), then that's a bad experience. Good mechanic, don't get me wrong... but a bad experience.

 

And walking the tightrope of explaining all of your complex mechanics within the logic of the game could be viewed as hand-holding to many (which they don't like) but if you don't explain anything at all and have the players learn by failing, then that can result in rage-quit and people giving up before they ever really had a chance to start.

 

 

 

To get a little more on topic, if PE is going to use a cooldown system, I'd prefer it be tied to a particular skill branch or magic school. So if you cast a spell from a particular school/branch, it would have a cooldown to use that particular skill/spell again, but it would also put a 20% cooldown time and mana cost on any other skill/spells of that same school during the encounter. After the encounter, these cooldowns reset (but mana does not auto-regenerate).

 

Example: Mage McWizardpants has four spells from three schools: School of Destruction: Fireball (10 second cooldown, 5 mana) and Ice Storm (20 second cooldown, 15 mana), School of Creation: Grasping Vines (10 second cooldown, 5 mana) and School of Spirit: Curse of Pantsfalling (5 second cooldown, 3 mana). McWizardpants has a total of 100 mana entering a fight.

 

He starts off a fight with a fireball, which costs him 5 mana (going down to 95 mana left) and has 10 seconds before he can cast another fireball. He then casts Grasping Vines for 5 mana (down to 90 mana). He wants to use another attack spell, but his cooldown of Fireball isn't over yet, so he uses Ice Storm. Now, since he has already cast Fireball, its going to increase the cooldown and the cost by 20%. The base of Ice Storm is 20 seconds and 15 mana, so that will now become 24 seconds and 18 mana (which takes us down to 72 mana). He casts Curse of Pantsfalling, which only costs him 3 mana (down to 69). His fireball has now had a cooldown completed, so he casts it. However, since he has already cast two spells from the School of Destruction, it will have a 40% larger cost and cooldown. The base is 10 seconds and 5 mana, so this would mean the cooldown is 14 seconds and the cost is 7 mana (down to 62). His enemy has escaped the vines he cast before, so he casts Grasping Vines again, but at a 20% higher cost and cooldown, making it 12 seconds and 6 mana (taking him down to 56).

 

While I know "cooldown" is considered a vulgarity to many people, if PE is going to be using it, I could see this working. It would encourage wizards to have (and USE) a wider variety of spells from different schools, rather than just spam the attack spells constantly. It would really showcase the support role of the mage, and encourage him to keep his attack and personal defense spells on the back burner in case an enemy breaks through the ranks and puts him in direct harm.

 

 

The drawback to this system is that, at low levels, this really penalizes the player to being able to cast spells very few times, or requires chugging potions (since cooldown and cost for magic missile would be through the roof by the end of a fight if that's the only spell you have). Also, potions would need to be expensive and/or rare in a case like this, otherwise the cost is negated (although the increased cooldown each time a school is used would prevent outright spamming).

 

This system could add to the character/level building mechanic, by having the ability for a wizard make a school his "specialty", which could do something like reduce the cooldown/cost increase to just 10%, instead of 20% (for that school only). It would be an interesting way to offer more conscientious spell casting and abilities, instead of ignoring the vast majority of spells and going for the highest DPS build.

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No one else's PnP experience has replicated anyone else's PnP experience either. That is a poor comparison.

 

You said a game had replicated my experience. I was just responding that it had not.

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Or it could just be as similar as it was in the IE games. That's why we liked it.

These were the things I disliked the most in IE games. I like the games themselves, but I did not like the D&D game system or it's magic rules. These were things I tolerated.

I simply can't understand your kind. What made the IE games for me were the spell system and selection. The huge amount of spells, the different ways to use them, the mage battles in BG 2, the sheer utility and power of it all. Finding a new high level spell scroll was a real joy, as was reading all the different spell descriptions and planning out casting orders and techniques.

 

Who hasn't spammed Chromatic Orb on Firkraag after lowering his SR and saves to instant kill him? Or set up clever spell sequencer combinations? There were so many options. Spellcasting made the IE games; the melee and ranged combat was very dull.

 

And I can't understand the full-throated adoration for Vancian magic. :shrugz:

 

Uhm, and for the last part - I haven't. Magic (and magic items) have always been an after thought for me in D&D. I tend to play melee characters myself, and even when I make the whole party (a la IWD), I'm first deciding on an interesting party dynamic of personalities, then I'm deciding on what will best support my lead character (who was inevitably a paladin or a bard for the high charisma.)

 

My focus on magic items and magic spells was never "what will win this battle," it was "what would these character choose to memorize" and maybe, for the more tactically inclined leaders, "what would the party leader suggest they have to ensure party survivability."

 

Magic and spells were part of the background for me. I was used to D&D rules and understood them, so I didn't have a problem with them, per se, except, you know, the stuff my role-playing group would house rule. Like, well, Vancian magic.

 

Table-top I think I played one magic-user in D&D, one session, before 4E came out... and then I played a Bard for quite some time and a Sorcerer as well for quite some time. The pre-4E mage? He was a traveling merchant, a trader, and what spells he carried on him were mostly to aid in his travels and to support his occupation. Most of my time was spent trying to sell stuff to the rest of the party or protecting my mule, Kevan, so it wouldn't get killing in the one combat we had before I retired the character. The RP'ing was fun... the tracking the spells, not so much.

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Thought myself about "2 types of fatigue" system. Current (breath), and overall - fatigue.

Breath is very limited - less than required for 1-st lvl spell for 1-st lvl mage, restores quite fast but not instant. Couple of 0-lvl sparks could be cast in a row, then breath depletes, but not too long until it's enough to cast another one.

You are not forbidden to cast more when your breath is out, or to cast more powerful spell that you can with only your breath, but there it starts taking from fatigue and appears cast time (non linearly scaling mb), and, probably, chance of failure, based on how far over your breath you trying to perform. The more you're fatigued - the less breath you have, prob less fast it restores. After some more lvls of fatigue you suffer some minuses to spell power, spell failure chance, minuses to defense.

 

That sould exactly like the system variant I was about to type.

Except I called the "pools" differently.


* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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Resting for me is just waste of time, it kills flow of the game, I know that it's realistic etc, etc but it's boring. And since when games have been realistic ? You can go away from computer for 8hours and imagine that your party is sleeping or eating.

 

I think cool down + mana system could be really tactical and fun. Just make it right for example really long cool down periods, I've used uber powerful spell in one battle so you can't use it for next 2-4 battles and have to rely on less powerful but useful spells.

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There have been so many threads on magic systems, some of which I commented on, some of which I merely meant to...

 

As much as I love the IE games and D&D3.5, I still despise Vancian casting as much as when I first heard of it in the days of yore.

 

I don't really care if there's one (fatigue), two (mana & stamina) or three (magical, mental & physical) bars, but give me that rather than Vancian any time of the day, any day of the year.

 

D&D≠∃=1P&P

 

Just because most computer and video game mana-based magic systems are severely broken doesn't mean it can't be done well, as several P&P RPG systems prove. Essentially, just don't overpower and/or overblow the spell selection. Underpowering and/or ... "underblowing" it wouldn't be ideal in an RPG either, though. In short, as with everything, the proper balance does it. But no matter what, magical meteors are made of groan.

 

I don't like cool-downs much more than Vancian either, though. Mostly because it makes barely more sense.

 

What I like are (varying) cast times. They essentially serve the same purpose as cool-downs, are a bit more tactical and IMO aren't immersion-breaking. Win-win as far as I am concerned.

 

That said, I think I've said it before and either way I'll say it again, I really, really like the exhaustion system proposed by the OP.

Edited by twincast

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How about just making it so that as you use magic or special abilities they become weaker along with cooldowns on some abilities. The way to bring your spells and abilities back to full strength would be resting or maybe rare potions that can restore your abilities for a short time.

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Sort of reminds me of a system I once saw years ago that exponentially increased cooldown/casting times based on a debuff, of sorts, that stacked up and increases in duration the more you use "whatever" back to back. It didn't weaken them directly, obviously, but increasing the time/effort involved consistently for abuse of a particular ability sort of reminded me of what you said. Not really something I'd ask for in PE, mind you. Just figured it would be an interesting mention.

Edited by Umberlin

"Step away! She has brought truth and you condemn it? The arrogance!

You will not harm her, you will not harm her ever again!"

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If some don't like Vanacian and many don't like cooldowns, what then?

 

Here's an idea:

 

Fatigue

rpgwiz.jpg

 

* EDIT: in case you havn't figured it out yet, red is health, green is morale *

 

Lets say your mage starts the day with 100 fatigue (or 1000.. higher numbers might be better for balancing and nuances)

 

He and the party go traveling. They've been on the road for 2 hours and the mages maximum fatigue has gone down, so now he's at 90/90.

 

Max fatigue goes down as the day goes by and as you do physicly demanding things (long journesy, running, etc..). Even if you don't cast any spells, you will need sleep.

 

So your group runs into some orcs. Battle starts. You launch a pretty powerfull spell that costs 15 fatigue. Roughly 10% of that costs is drawn from MAX fatigue. Your max fatigue has now dropped down to 88. However, your regular fatigue will regenerate by roughly 1 point per second. In 15 seconds the mage will be at 88/88. He can cast antoher spell immediately or wait.

 

Had he/she cast a less pwoerfull spell, the max fatigue would have been reduced only by 1 point. Either way, as time passes and the battles go on, the MAX fatigue drops. At 25% the character (any character, fighter or mage) becomes tired. It's harder to focus, but not by much. At 0% the characte is dead tired. He cna still continue to fight and move, but the penalties become severe. Miscasting becomesalmost a certanty.

 

The only way to recover MAX fatigue is by resting.

Yes resting.

 

Resting should be a part of any true RPG. It gives inns and villages a clear purpose. It is a safe haven to gather information, prepare, stock up, rest and heal.

 

 

I'd propose even healing to be very difficult. A natural and slow process. Healign spells don't heal fully - they give back only a small amount of HP (and a character cannot be healed over 50% wihout rest), but increase natural regeneration. - Note it would still take hours for critical wounds to heal. Without healing magic it might take days.

 

This even more gives a feelign of a real adventure and resource managment. Pulling back and regrouping becomes not onnly a valid tactic, but sometimes necessary (realistic, no?).

Also, leaving a wounded companion in the inn to recouperate while you take another companion with you for a while becomes an enticing prospect.

 

 

 

Personally, I'd rather have a few powerfull spells that I can't cast all of the time, and having to resort to a crossbow/staff/sword often enough, thanto have easily spammable low-level spells. That just sucks.

More like Gandalf, less like Hawke.

 

i'm sold :)


"if everyone is dead then why don't i remember dying?"

—a clueless sod to a dustman

 

"if we're all alive then why don't i remember being born?"

—the dustman's response

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He should add an enchantment to the spell list or a magic object that allows uninterrupted rest that you can only use once in 24 h, like secure shelter or sthg. Spam with random encounters those who rest in a dangerous area without using it. That way you avoid the back and forth problem and avoid the rest onceeachclearedroomretardness at the same time

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