[Merged] Cooldown Thread

[ogrezilla]

Well, that is a good question: should spells of that power (mass save or die, enormous damage sink summons) be in the spellcaster's arsenal, period? I know some players do want "omnipotent" (to use one poster's words) wizards.

 

I vote yes. That is definately not something that should regen off cooldown. That should be there as a daily power.

Alright. So let us assume for the present that heal is not the issue. What about Summoned creatures, one shot kill spells (Wail of the Banshee?) something even worse like Shadow simulacrum which you can spam per battle? I am hoping such things are completely absent then, other wise I foresee a clear trail of munchkin crumbs in my merry adventurous path along the game .

Well, that is a good question: should spells of that power (mass save or die, enormous damage sink summons) be in the spellcaster's arsenal, period? I know some players do want "omnipotent" (to use one poster's words) wizards.

 

Oh boy, am I one of them. So I assume that wizards will be casting standard buffs and magic missiles only and not anything DnD worthy in order for of this system to work.

 

Would it be a bad idea at this moment to consider other systems where more powerful but otherwise limited wizards are allowed? That does seem too spectacular from a balanced game point of view, that I must agree.

 

How about different types/presentation of Mage's completely? Some are "Wandslingers" throwing lower level spells in quantity, weaker of course. Another strand of Mage where they need to be more conservative because their spells pack much more of a punch, but are limited to only a few "charges"?

 

both of these seem like decent ways to handle it.

[Lv99Wizard]

Alright. So let us assume for the present that heal is not the issue. What about Summoned creatures, one shot kill spells (Wail of the Banshee?) something even worse like Shadow simulacrum which you can spam per battle? I am hoping such things are completely absent then, other wise I foresee a clear trail of munchkin crumbs in my merry adventurous path along the game .

Well, that is a good question: should spells of that power (mass save or die, enormous damage sink summons) be in the spellcaster's arsenal, period? I know some players do want "omnipotent" (to use one poster's words) wizards.

 

 

So in the old system, these types of powerful spells were (relatively) balanced and enjoyable. In the new system they don't fit well so you're questioning whether they should even be implemented. I can't see the impetus to make these changes. Are the advantages of this system (not having to backtrack) really worth having a "weak-magic" setting? Is that something fans want to see? Is it something they'd have preferred in the original games? I don't believe so.

 

The greatness of IWD (easily my favourite) was it's incredibly vast, all encompassing story line. It was of a massive scale (inter dimensional god like beings struggling trying to conquer Icewind dale). Powerful mages made that believable - without them it wouldn't work well.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Ugh... see, that is my worry. With a cool down system, magic must be nerfed and borderline uncreative. That's just the way it is. You can't allow mages to cast massive death spells, massive disabling spells and massive confusion spells on a timer that runs out every few minutes, and still expect balanced gameplay.

 

I don't want omnipotent mages, but at the same time, there is NOTHING worse than one-dimensional mages that feel like little more than energy ray-shooting archers. Because as another poster somewhere here said.... that just sucks all the magic out of magic. But I have never seen a cool-down system in any game where they were anything but that..... so....

There is a spectrum between these two extremes.

[Merin]

just because he says he's been playing for 20 years don't make it true. people may lie on the internet don't you know.

I've been playing D&D for 25 years. I also hate Vancian magic.

 

I've also been playing D&D for roughly 25 years, and I don't hate Vanican but I've never liked it, and very early on my friends and I in Jr. High devised a spell point system for 2nd ED.

 

So, yeah, you just house rule.

[Captain Shrek]

So Josh, I admit I am getting a bit confused here - you do support all spells automatically regenerating a set time after combat resolution?

Not particularly. What I've been consistently saying is that in the IE games, most players did regenerate their spells (through rest) after the end of combat, if not after the end of one combat, usually after two or three. We have some players in this thread insisting that they never do that. I'm not doing to dispute them, but I certainly know what I've watched players actually do (rest constantly and backtrack to rest constantly).

 

Oh boy, am I one of them. So I assume that wizards will be casting standard buffs and magic missiles only and not anything DnD worthy in order for of this system to work.

I don't know why you would assume that. There are hundreds of spells in A/D&D that run the gamut of power between Sleep and Wail of the Banshee, even at high levels.

 

That may be so Josh, but we can't allow access to any of those which are area effect and able to kill, can we, otherwise the combat would be over in a second. Consider the spells like Fog of acid (? weak memory, excuse me) or hold monster. If I could just SPAM THOSE it is more than enough to crush through enemy defenses. All I need is a variety in such spells so that I don't have to cast the same thing but still give me an easy victory .

Edited October 3, 2012 by Captain Shrek

[Jon of the Wired]

One possible mechanic which hasn't been discussed is material components. It might be irritating as the primary resource mechanism for magic, but as a secondary resource mechanic it could be interesting. Obviously, the components would be consumed in the casting of the spell, making them essentially magic ammunition. Minor spells may not require components, or would require only readily available components (a pinch of sulfur, a lump of coal, a small twig). More powerful spells would require commensurately rarer and more valuable components (gold dust, a perfectly polished glass sphere), with the most powerful spells requiring components that are so rare and valuable they are almost never available on the market, and instead must be acquired through questing (the heart of an elder wyrm). Components of various qualities could also affect the power of a spell, something like ammo mods.

 

This is as much a strawman proposal as anything else, but it does provide a resource management mechanic that needs to be managed across encounters, without requiring the fiddly messing about with spellbooks and resting that makes Vancian magic so irritating. It also could be expanded on to provide interesting choices and opportunities for mastery. Also allows you to pack a little extra flavour into the spells.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Jon of the Wired

[Cthulchulain]

One thing that keeps popping up in comments for me is an assumption of mutual incompatibility between different options. Why is (long) cooldown incompatible with rest restriction incompatible with spell selection etc?

 

 

Imagine the following concepts:

 

1) Two different rest mechanics + fatigue based on time w/o resting

- Short rest to recover cooldowns of *less powerful* abilities, only usable when "safe" (e.g. when you could save in IE). Does not recover health, fatigue (maybe a bit) -- like taking a breather vs a night's sleep.

- Long rest to recover health, powerful (daily) abilities, rest restricted to safe areas

- Short rest advances game time with accompanying cons (fatigue timers advance, timed quests if any progress)

Result: no tedious stand-spamming, rest-spamming penalised, you have the option of doing other stuff while your cooldowns progress (scouting, inventory management, intra-party dialogue).

 

2) Vancian-like spell selection with tiered cooldown regeneration of spell levels.

- This is just my summary of stuff has already been proposed and/or (possibly inaccurate) interpretation of Josh's comments. Could be made to work with mechanic 1.

- At appropriate times (short rest permitted?), option to reselect spells available per level. Casting is like 3E sorceror, but with wizard-like respeccing. No shut-out of same spell, tactical spell selection with option to tweak once first encounters suggest what is appropriate. Limited so long-term strategy is still relevant (x spell swaps per day?).

- Cooldowns (and whether cooldowns apply, or long rest is needed) scale with level: a level 3 mage can recover level 1 spells on cooldown/short-rest, not level 2, while a level 11 mage gets back spell levels 1-3 on short rest/cooldown, but has to ration level 4,5 spells.

 

Lots of ways to elaborate on this -- fatigue could reduce number of regenerated spells per level etc. But with a bit of imagination, maybe these things can be made into a non-tedious system that retains all the tactical/strategic interest.

[andreisiadi]

just because he says he's been playing for 20 years don't make it true. people may lie on the internet don't you know.

I've been playing D&D for 25 years. I also hate Vancian magic.

 

I've also been playing D&D for roughly 25 years, and I don't hate Vanican but I've never liked it, and very early on my friends and I in Jr. High devised a spell point system for 2nd ED.

 

So, yeah, you just house rule.

 

You should have gotten a chess-timer and implement cooldowns. It's the best solution you know.

[Hypevosa]

Hmmm, sending off individual party members to rest sounds really risky though - one good ambush and your mage would be dead, especially without spells... and it would be kinda boring if that could never happen.

 

Good, we're on the same page. Continously, if you could have an Escort slot as well, how would that work in these ambush sequences? How would the Escort (depending on class) affect the chance in anything bad happening along the way back to camp?

 

If I would send my Mage and Thief back to camp, the Thief could (from a roleplaying perspective, and also by mechanics) extend the time it takes to get back to camp back and forth safely because the Thief needs to "scout" the way to see if there's any threat to both of them as well as lessening the chance for a random encounter for them on their way back. With an escort joining the prime target (doesn't necessarily have to be a Mage) you would be at an even greater disadvantage at 4 party members.

 

However, this has the "Waiting for Mage to return"-effect to it as a player. Somehow I doubt that everyone would do that all the time, even though it is something of a risky consequence. Maybe open up a window as the Mage has gotten to camp, maybe a button starts glowing when the Mage is fully rested that you have to press?

 

I still say make resting a hassle in some way, so that it'll be simply too tedious to abuse it.

 

During my last "dungeon" I ran for myself and 2 of my friends (in celebration of our reaching level 20) I introduced a cleric spell that essentially froze everyone who was touching hands in time. They couldn't move beyond 10 feet, they couldn't affect the outside world, but they could rest for as long as they needed, and only needed to make a will save of 15 in order to leave. Essentially, it allowed for instant rest right before a massive battle.

 

A similar thing where time still passed, perhaps at a slower rate, but the person inside was completely invulnerable might work.

[ogrezilla]

my ideal game would never have any fight be an easy victory if you are properly leveled. If getting rid of stupidly good mage spells is a part of accomplishing that, then so be it. I know there will always be trash fights, but a man can dream right?

[Cyn!c]

Here is something I would like to hear opinions on. Take the following circumstance, which is not uncommon in the IE games and would be somewhat similar to the KotC "campsite" system in circumstances were you are not locked off from backtracking to a campsite.

 

* You are in a location where resting is either prohibited or extraordinarily likely to result in an encounter. You do not know the location of the next campsite/safe resting area.

* You have cast many of your spells and the ones that remain are not entirely appropriate for the encounters you are now facing.

* Because you came from an area where you could rest and are not locked in the location, you have a cleared (by you) path back to the area where you can safely rest.

* It will take you three minutes of real time to walk back to the camp, maybe thirty seconds to reconfigure spells, five seconds to rest, and another three minutes of real time to walk back to where you had left off.

* Because you killed everything between you and the campsite, there are no threats between you and the campsite.

 

In this circumstance, what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite?

 

This is an interesting question but the basis of the "experience of walking back" being redundant assumes that the campsite and encounters are poorly placed via inept level design. The final point that everything is killed between you and the campsite lends me to believe you aren't thinking creatively about how to solve this at all, which is not encouraging.

 

I'm going to use the example of quite simply the best old school feeling game that has been released in recent years, Dark Souls, as an example of how to do this right. Before you go on to say "this is an action game, not a cRPG" please be aware that the entire concept of the bonfires in DS is based upon PnP concepts of resting at only safe locations so it is entirely valid. The only thing that changes is the level and encounter design when going from aRPG to cRPG. DS also uses a memorization system of magic so that makes it even more relevant.

 

Let me just say now right off the bat, Dark Souls handled resting perfectly in my opinion. Let's take a close look at how it works:

• Players can rest at bonfires, recharging their resources and memorizing new spells
   
  
• Bonfires are placed strategically throughout levels to avoid abuse
   
  
• Using bonfires comes at a cost - all the monsters in the area revive
  

The third point here, is key. Turn resting into something that affects the game experience. For instance, time passes while resting and SOME monsters come back. Perhaps there are certain areas where super rare monsters only appear after resting at a campsite. You can mix this up with a day night cycle to really get some cool random stuff happening.

 

DS also does something with magic that makes the player really think about when and how they are going to use spells. You get a certain number of uses of a particular magic. It's excellent as it encourages the player to really think about conserving certain spells for tough situations. Of course, you do not have to think about any kind of conservation when there are cool downs involved. You just wait and go onto the next encounter.

 

The point is, that by focusing on the potentially boring experience of walking back to a campsite you are throwing a red herring into the discussion. Quite simply - you are focusing on the wrong thing. The innate gameplay benefits that having a system that encourages thought, strategic planning, and conservation while promoting real tension far outweigh the chance that walking back to a campsite is going to be slightly tedious. And, as I've already mentioned, if you think creatively you can even turn resting into a gameplay mechanic that provides new potential challenges/benefits to the player.

 

edit: I accidentally a word

Edited October 3, 2012 by Cyn!c

[Hypevosa]

Ugh... see, that is my worry. With a cool down system, magic must be nerfed and borderline uncreative. That's just the way it is. You can't allow mages to cast massive death spells, massive disabling spells and massive confusion spells on a timer that runs out every few minutes, and still expect balanced gameplay.

 

I don't want omnipotent mages, but at the same time, there is NOTHING worse than one-dimensional mages that feel like little more than energy ray-shooting archers. Because as another poster somewhere here said.... that just sucks all the magic out of magic. But I have never seen a cool-down system in any game where they were anything but that..... so....

There is a spectrum between these two extremes.

 

But why can't there be both? Part of the appeal, I'd say a major part of the appeal, of playing a wizard or sorcerer in D&D was that you could eventually do some of the most awesome and amazing things ever. You could eventually wish someone into or out of existence. You could eventually move whole mountains, or even level entire armies. You're eliminating one of the key draws of magical characters by making them unable to do such things.

[Blackstream]

There's plenty of ways they could fit in the more uber spells too. For example, casting normal spells builds up a 'soul' meter of some kind, and once you have enough meter, you can cast one of the more uber powerful spells. It's essentially supermeter and something I like to incorporate into games I make, but the important thing is it allows you to have incredibly powerful imbalanced (or they would be if you could just use them at will) moves that don't encourage out of combat time loss without making them spammable either.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Blackstream

[Osvir]

One possible mechanic which hasn't been discussed is material components. It might be irritating as the primary resource mechanism for magic, but as a secondary resource mechanic it could be interesting. Obviously, the components would be consumed in the casting of the spell, making them essentially magic ammunition. Minor spells may not require components, or would require only readily available components (a pinch of sulfur, a lump of coal, a small twig). More powerful spells would require commensurately rarer and more valuable components (gold dust, a perfectly polished glass sphere), with the most powerful spells requiring components that are so rare and valuable they are almost never available on the market, and instead must be acquired through questing (the heart of an elder wyrm). Components of various qualities could also affect the power of a spell, something like ammo mods.

 

This is as much a strawman proposal as anything else, but it does provide a resource management mechanic that needs to be managed across encounters, without requiring the fiddly messing about with spellbooks and resting that makes Vancian magic so irritating. It also could be expanded on to provide interesting choices and opportunities for mastery. Also allows you to pack a little extra flavour into the spells.

 

Full Metal Alchemist? :D

[Hypevosa]

There's plenty of ways they could fit in the more uber spells too. For example, casting normal spells builds up a 'soul' meter of some kind, and once you have enough meter, you can cast one of the more uber powerful spells. It's essentially supermeter and something I like to incorporate into games I make, but the important thing is it allows you to have incredibly powerful imbalanced (or they would be if you could just use them at will) moves that don't encourage out of combat time loss without making them spammable either.

 

The problem here is you now are saying a mage who is already being really useful suddenly becomes perfectly useful. You also are making it so that the most powerful spells aren't viable in emergencies since you need to have build up to them.

[J.E. Sawyer]

That may be so Josh, but we can't allow access to any of those which are area effect and able to kill, can we, otherwise the combat would be over in a second.

Practically speaking, that's how a lot of players handled enemies like the black dragon in Chult in IWD2 (well, with reloading).

 

Consider the spells like Fog of acid (? weak memory, excuse me) or hold monster. If I could just SPAM THOSE it is more than enough to crush through enemy defenses. All I need is a variety in such spells so that I don't have to cast the same thing but still give me an easy victory .

A high-level sorcerer in IWD2 (or tabletop) could chain cast a fair number of Acid Fogs or Hold Monsters, but they'd have to be pretty high level, and I think that while those spells are really powerful, they don't compare to the save-or-die family spells.

[Infinitron]

OK, Captain Shrek has turned out for the night. But perhaps you know that already.

[Hypevosa]

That may be so Josh, but we can't allow access to any of those which are area effect and able to kill, can we, otherwise the combat would be over in a second.

Practically speaking, that's how a lot of players handled enemies like the black dragon in Chult in IWD2 (well, with reloading).

 

Consider the spells like Fog of acid (? weak memory, excuse me) or hold monster. If I could just SPAM THOSE it is more than enough to crush through enemy defenses. All I need is a variety in such spells so that I don't have to cast the same thing but still give me an easy victory .

A high-level sorcerer in IWD2 (or tabletop) could chain cast a fair number of Acid Fogs or Hold Monsters, but they'd have to be pretty high level, and I think that while those spells are really powerful, they don't compare to the save-or-die family spells.

 

Save or die has always been an issue to me. Having these spells be highly limited somehow is always something I'd support, especially if they have a chance to be used on the player themselves.

 

The only save or die spell I think might really be good would be a save or die spell where the spell caster's demise allowed your characters to come back to life somehow - this way it's not just a case of save and reload so you get your characters back for what is essentially a cheap trick.

[Captain Shrek]

That may be so Josh, but we can't allow access to any of those which are area effect and able to kill, can we, otherwise the combat would be over in a second.

Practically speaking, that's how a lot of players handled enemies like the black dragon in Chult in IWD2 (well, with reloading).

 

Consider the spells like Fog of acid (? weak memory, excuse me) or hold monster. If I could just SPAM THOSE it is more than enough to crush through enemy defenses. All I need is a variety in such spells so that I don't have to cast the same thing but still give me an easy victory .

A high-level sorcerer in IWD2 (or tabletop) could chain cast a fair number of Acid Fogs or Hold Monsters, but they'd have to be pretty high level, and I think that while those spells are really powerful, they don't compare to the save-or-die family spells.

 

Well not directly but they are at least as bad if not worse like some of the save or die and if you survive then worse; get nerfed variety. But we are diverting. The point is that the wizard can then no longer have any spell which will be meta-effect like hold since that will always mean instawin with spam since you would have many such spells (unless the decision is to cut spell variety so that player can't use them). To avoid that and introduce some challenge I can see that you will have to force nerfed damage spells. Which are fine in my book as long as the combat is balanced, right?

 

EDIT: And I must bid good night! Thanks for your time. I hope it was well spent.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Captain Shrek

[Jaesun]

The point is, that by focusing on the potentially boring experience of walking back to a campsite you are throwing a red herring into the discussion. Quite simply - you are focusing on the wrong thing. The innate gameplay benefits that having a system that encourages thought, strategic planning, and conservation while promoting real tension tension far outweigh the chance that walking back to a campsite is going to be slightly tedious. And, as I've already mentioned, if you think creatively you can even turn resting into a gameplay mechanic that provides new potential challenges/benefits to the player.

 

:salute:

[J.E. Sawyer]

This is an interesting question but the basis of the "experience of walking back" being redundant assumes that the campsite and encounters are poorly placed via inept level design. The final point that everything is killed between you and the campsite lends me to believe you aren't thinking creatively about how to solve this at all, which is not encouraging.

I was describing circumstances that occur constantly in IE games.

 

Dark Souls is an excellent game, but it also solves the problem in the opposite direction. It respawns creatures after rest, not on your way back to the campfire. This is also acceptable within the fiction of Dark Souls because it is quite close to being a world full of monsters and undead. This is not always the kind of area population that the BG/IWD games had.

[Lohi]

For example, The Witcher limited potion chugging with toxicity levels -

With Witcher I could go from battle to battle to battle without sleeping overnight and without chugging potions. I also didn't have to strategically choose spells in advance. That's because he was a fighter. Any system in place should allow the party to from battle to battle to battle without doing too much resting, unless they were seriously hurt in a battle. You can't do that with a single mage character without regeneration of abilities, be it regen or cooldowns or whatever.

 

I've noticed some things in some games. Fighter is always the best option if you're solo, or fighter+something. That's because the fighter always has something useful to do. A primary healing class is useful when healing but not too useful if you don't need healing. A mage is useful when you need a spell and you haven't run out, but is useless after that. With limited number of spells or power/mana you will carefully ration mage/healer abilities, but you never need to ration a fighter's sword swings.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Lohi

[Delterius]

Here is something I would like to hear opinions on. Take the following circumstance, which is not uncommon in the IE games and would be somewhat similar to the KotC "campsite" system in circumstances were you are not locked off from backtracking to a campsite.

 

* You are in a location where resting is either prohibited or extraordinarily likely to result in an encounter. You do not know the location of the next campsite/safe resting area.

* You have cast many of your spells and the ones that remain are not entirely appropriate for the encounters you are now facing.

* Because you came from an area where you could rest and are not locked in the location, you have a cleared (by you) path back to the area where you can safely rest.

* It will take you three minutes of real time to walk back to the camp, maybe thirty seconds to reconfigure spells, five seconds to rest, and another three minutes of real time to walk back to where you had left off.

* Because you killed everything between you and the campsite, there are no threats between you and the campsite.

 

In this circumstance, what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite?

 

This is an interesting question but the basis of the "experience of walking back" being redundant assumes that the campsite and encounters are poorly placed via inept level design. The final point that everything is killed between you and the campsite lends me to believe you aren't thinking creatively about how to solve this at all, which is not encouraging.

 

I'm going to use the example of quite simply the best old school feeling game that has been released in recent years, Dark Souls, as an example of how to do this right. Before you go on to say "this is an action game, not a cRPG" please be aware that the entire concept of the bonfires in DS is based upon PnP concepts of resting at only safe locations so it is entirely valid. The only thing that changes is the level and encounter design when going from aRPG to cRPG. DS also uses a memorization system of magic so that makes it even more relevant.

 

Let me just say now right off the bat, Dark Souls handled resting perfectly in my opinion. Let's take a close look at how it works:

• Players can rest at bonfires, recharging their resources and memorizing new spells
   
  
• Bonfires are placed strategically throughout levels to avoid abuse
   
  
• Using bonfires comes at a cost - all the monsters in the area revive
  

The third point here, is key. Turn resting into something that affects the game experience. For instance, time passes while resting and SOME monsters come back. Perhaps there are certain areas where super rare monsters only appear after resting at a campsite. You can mix this up with a day night cycle to really get some cool random stuff happening.

 

DS also does something with magic that makes the player really think about when and how they are going to use spells. You get a certain number of uses of a particular magic. It's excellent as it encourages the player to really think about conserving certain spells for tough situations. Of course, you do not have to think about any kind of conservation when there are cool downs involved. You just wait and go onto the next encounter.

 

The point is, that by focusing on the potentially boring experience of walking back to a campsite you are throwing a red herring into the discussion. Quite simply - you are focusing on the wrong thing. The innate gameplay benefits that having a system that encourages thought, strategic planning, and conservation while promoting real tension tension far outweigh the chance that walking back to a campsite is going to be slightly tedious. And, as I've already mentioned, if you think creatively you can even turn resting into a gameplay mechanic that provides new potential challenges/benefits to the player.

 

This is very interesting. While its certainly possible to play the IE games without resting (as I did from the start), there might be a good reason why the developers didn't make resting more punishing, which I believe are all negated by DS's approach. The player won't run out of options and the run back to the 'safe area' won't ever get boring.

 

I can certainly envision encounter and level design benefiting greatly from this, with the player tackling the adventure more and more like a puzzle.

[BobbinThreadbare]

Let me just say now right off the bat, Dark Souls handled resting perfectly in my opinion. Let's take a close look at how it works:

• Players can rest at bonfires, recharging their resources and memorizing new spells
   
  
• Bonfires are placed strategically throughout levels to avoid abuse
   
  
• Using bonfires comes at a cost - all the monsters in the area revive
  

The third point here, is key. Turn resting into something that affects the game experience. For instance, time passes while resting and SOME monsters come back. Perhaps there are certain areas where super rare monsters only appear after resting at a campsite. You can mix this up with a day night cycle to really get some cool random stuff happening.

 

DS also does something with magic that makes the player really think about when and how they are going to use spells. You get a certain number of uses of a particular magic. It's excellent as it encourages the player to really think about conserving certain spells for tough situations. Of course, you do not have to think about any kind of conservation when there are cool downs involved. You just wait and go onto the next encounter.

 

The point is, that by focusing on the potentially boring experience of walking back to a campsite you are throwing a red herring into the discussion. Quite simply - you are focusing on the wrong thing. The innate gameplay benefits that having a system that encourages thought, strategic planning, and conservation while promoting real tension far outweigh the chance that walking back to a campsite is going to be slightly tedious. And, as I've already mentioned, if you think creatively you can even turn resting into a gameplay mechanic that provides new potential challenges/benefits to the player.

 

edit: I accidentally a word

I never played Dark Souls, but this sounds really good.

[Inertia]

How do you feel about the proposed "fatigue" systems that have been running around?