Food

[Luckmann]

It prevents you from constantly sleeping/resting until you are fully healed and adds urgency for long-term or far-away exploration. "Forcing" you to walk back to town once in a while in an adventuring/roleplaying game.. makes perfect sense.

 

Unless you're hunters, foragers or rangers, of course, in which case you should definitely be able to utilize their skills, incentivizing the use of such skills (and spending effort to improve them).

 

While I understand the sentiment, my experience with food mechanics is actually the opposite of urgency. You stock up on all the food you can carry at town, then use rations to get to the dungeon, then 1/3 of the dungeon is cleared you run low on food, now you HAVE to go back to town NOW or else run out of rations before you can get to a store, so you go back to town then restock and go back to the dungeon and now you have to walk back down to where you left off (hope monsters don't respawn) and so on.

 

So while I understand in theory food mechanics make you go "We can't just stand around here - our food is going to run out!", my experience with them is that the instead make you go "Wait evil baddy, I need about 12 more days to go restock on food and return because I don't want to starve and die while stabbing your horde to death."

While that's a fair point, making it hard to apply urgency to games that inherently doesn't have any (although they should); Why the hell would you only carry the bare minimum, or wait going back to town until you are practically starving?

 

And if you only make it to 1/3 of the dungeon before you absolutely have to go back, going there straight from your last stock-up, then yeah, there is clearly something wrong with the system, because once you're back there, you're going to run into the exact same problem again, in the exact same spot.

 

I've never, ever had what you describe happen in a game, though.

[ogrezilla]

It prevents you from constantly sleeping/resting until you are fully healed and adds urgency for long-term or far-away exploration. "Forcing" you to walk back to town once in a while in an adventuring/roleplaying game.. makes perfect sense.

 

Unless you're hunters, foragers or rangers, of course, in which case you should definitely be able to utilize their skills, incentivizing the use of such skills (and spending effort to improve them).

 

While I understand the sentiment, my experience with food mechanics is actually the opposite of urgency. You stock up on all the food you can carry at town, then use rations to get to the dungeon, then 1/3 of the dungeon is cleared you run low on food, now you HAVE to go back to town NOW or else run out of rations before you can get to a store, so you go back to town then restock and go back to the dungeon and now you have to walk back down to where you left off (hope monsters don't respawn) and so on.

 

So while I understand in theory food mechanics make you go "We can't just stand around here - our food is going to run out!", my experience with them is that the instead make you go "Wait evil baddy, I need about 12 more days to go restock on food and return because I don't want to starve and die while stabbing your horde to death."

While that's a fair point, making it hard to apply urgency to games that inherently doesn't have any (although they should); Why the hell would you only carry the bare minimum, or wait going back to town until you are practically starving?

 

And if you only make it to 1/3 of the dungeon before you absolutely have to go back, going there straight from your last stock-up, then yeah, there is clearly something wrong with the system, because once you're back there, you're going to run into the exact same problem again, in the exact same spot.

 

I've never, ever had what you describe happen in a game, though.

which means its typically a complete non issue that boils down to did I remember to buy food or not without actually adding anything to the game.

Edited September 28, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Hugo Rune]

Food and drink make sense in a game like Fallout where they add to the whole survival feel of the world. In an isometric, party based, heroic fantasy rpg not so much, it'd be just annoying. Really, it's just not going to be the kind of game for that, I think. I'm completely fine with just assuming that my characters take care of their basic needs when I'm not looking.

 

Fatigue and the need to rest can stay like it was in the IE games, why not. Still, I'd wish that it was handled with a little more common sense, i.e., when I travel for over 24 hours the game should assume that my party took a break somewhere on the road. It was annoying always to have to rest first thing when arriving at another place.

[Amentep]

While that's a fair point, making it hard to apply urgency to games that inherently doesn't have any (although they should); Why the hell would you only carry the bare minimum, or wait going back to town until you are practically starving?

 

And if you only make it to 1/3 of the dungeon before you absolutely have to go back, going there straight from your last stock-up, then yeah, there is clearly something wrong with the system, because once you're back there, you're going to run into the exact same problem again, in the exact same spot.

 

I've never, ever had what you describe happen in a game, though.

 

I wish I could remember the game I was thinking of that I had that happen in, but alas I can't.

[Naril]

Food and sleep should both be absolutely necessary, but food shouldn't be 'too' punishing. Eating your enemies, rats, or conjuring food should all be options.

 

it's very frustrating to be at the final floor of the dungeon, almost ready to fight the ?evil? ogre mage...and then have to turn back cause you have to buy more provisions.

 

Of course...if the going gets really tough, the tough sometimes must try to eat their companions. or their gerbils.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Naril

[Flying Magician]

right. it only really works if acquiring food is an enjoyable part of the game by itself.

 

Honestly, buying basic ammunition for ranged weapons is pretty much exactly the same. It's never "I should conserve arrows" its "I should go back to town and buy more arrows." Limited upgraded and magic arrows are good though. Or there should be some reason for me not to go back to town for more arrows while I'm in the middle of a dungeon.

 

First you spew your nonsense about easy difficulty, now you seriously consider unlimited ammo a good idea. Good, good. Keep going!

 

Now, back to the topic.

 

There is a very simple and satisfying way of implementing food and hunger, without turning a game into roguelike. Basically, food is a numeric resource, like money. Food is a "fuel" for health regeneration during rest. No food, no health restored. Then, if character doesn't eat too long, he get "starving" attribute, which means he's not only unable to regenerate health, but also loses it periodically. This goes with appropriate penalties to stats.

Example: Albion and two previous games from Amber cycle.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Flying Magician

[Wintersong]

So this proposition maybe a little controversial but that do you guys think about food and sleep. I mean it could make the game more real and difficult if the characters had to eat and sleep. No food - healt and stamina decreases after some period of time and finally the character dies. So the player would have to buy food in taverns while in the city, and on the road have supplies and hunt. I know that for some this could be a hindrance and an unnecessary addition to gameplay but thats why it could be included in one of the announced mods: Expert Mode, Trial of Iron, or Path of the Damned.

As for sleep in would be similar to food, your party members and character would have to sleep from time to time to regenerate stamina, mana healh. No sllep for a long time your character has less stamina, less mana, his hit accuracy deacreses and so on.

So what do you guys think would this be a challenging addition or just a bother?

Someone in some thread mentioned that food could be autoconsumed by the characters when reaching certain thresholds, so implemented that way, it'd be less of a "chore" while still having to manage an important aspect of life and adventuring. Especially if, unlike games like Eye of the Beholder, there are no Create Food&Drink spells. The iron rations in D&D are for about week so it wouldn't be too much trouble as long as you don't go too long without restocking from time to time. Or hunt stuff for something more than wolf pelts to sell.

 

Unlike you, I'd not want this option included in the extra difficulty modes (if funded). I would like it to be in the base game.

 

Sleep? If a character doesn't sleep for a very long time, kill it (after some cumulative penalties to stuff like all the stats, skills and such). Strenuous activities should make more often to take some rest. I liked BG's system (which can be improved a lot).

 

This kind of stuff adds to the challenge. The problem, aside from people who only want their deep gameplay in other areas*, is that the systems can be a pain in the ass in not well done/developed. Or totally pointless is not well/done developed. In Eye of the Beholder it wasn't something bad, imho. It just required you to hold on your rations that you were finding in your exploration. And once your cleric (if you had one...) had access to Create Food spell, you could throw away most (if not all) of the rations and leave more room in your inventory for more items (scrolls, ammunition, extra weapons...).

 

Personally, I like challenge beyond beating the crap out of some bandits in crystal armor or passing a diplomacy check against the Dark Queen of Cats. But I also like to play strategy games, in addition to playing/DMing PnP games, so maybe I'm biased.

 

* which is ok, don't get me wrong.

[ogrezilla]

right. it only really works if acquiring food is an enjoyable part of the game by itself.

 

Honestly, buying basic ammunition for ranged weapons is pretty much exactly the same. It's never "I should conserve arrows" its "I should go back to town and buy more arrows." Limited upgraded and magic arrows are good though. Or there should be some reason for me not to go back to town for more arrows while I'm in the middle of a dungeon.

 

First you spew your nonsense about easy difficulty, now you seriously consider unlimited ammo a good idea. Good, good. Keep going!

 

Now, back to the topic.

 

There is a satisfying way of implementating food and hunger, without turning a game into roguelike. Basically, food is a numeric resource, like money. Food is a "fuel" for health regeneration during rest. No food, no health restored. Then, if character doesn't eat too long, he get "starving" attribute, which means he's not only unable to regenerate health, but also loses it periodically. This goes with appropriate penalties to stats.

Example: Albion and two previous games from Amber cycle.

I would actually prefer it if the game was designed so that the limited resources like arrows or food were implemented in a way that was actually satisfying. If I can only carry a limited number of arrows and I can't just stop at any moment in any dungeon and go back to town for more, I would actually be careful with arrows to make sure not to run out. But in the old games if I ran out I would simply stop what I was doing, go back to town for more arrows, and then come back to what I was doing. It added nothing of value to the game. Having food on a similar system wouldn't either. If limited supplies are going to be a gameplay mechanic, design the game to actually make those mechanics matter. If I run out of arrows in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more arrows or switch to a sword. But if fixing the problem of hunger or a lack of arrows simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more food or arrows then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

It doesn't matter what the punishment for going hungry is if food is too easy to acquire. You could instantly drop dead if you forget to eat and it wouldn't matter as long as I can simply waltz my way back to the inn to get more food. Limited resources need to actually be limited if they are going to have any value. That goes for food, ammo or even just gold. Don't make gold too easy to come by. If you have a limited amount of gold and food and ammo aren't dirt cheap, that could solve all of these problems all at once. Now you actually have to sacrifice buying that new sword if you want to buy more arrows and food. That would allow non-combat skills like crafting or hunting to be very valuable too.

 

but please, keep putting words in my mouth.

Edited September 28, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Amentep]

Personally, I like challenge beyond beating the crap out of some bandits in crystal armor or passing a diplomacy check against the Dark Queen of Cats. But I also like to play strategy games, in addition to playing/DMing PnP games, so maybe I'm biased.

 

I'm terrible at mildly complicated strategy games - might be why I don't respond well to games that make me pre-plan for too many things. Give me a few resources to manage and I'm okay but too many and I just start having no fun trying to keep up with everything.

[ToveriJuri]

I'm all for an optional mode like in New Vegas but i don't really want it as a forced mechanic. Hunger and sleep system adds challenge and depth to the game, but it doesn't feel that major or immersive nor does it really add the kind of challenge i'm looking for. Hard and rewarding combat/gameplay is the challenge i seek. In action games the challenge comes from a harsh and punishing combat that you can learn to be good at. In more slow paced RPG's it shoud come from difficult sitations that require thought and strategy. Now these are just my preferences.

[Flying Magician]

If I run out of arrows in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more arrows or switch to a sword. But if fixing the problem of hunger or a lack of arrows simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more food or arrows then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

The need of resupply? In RPG? Unbelievable, that shouldn't be! And the best thing is, you can say THE SAME THING about EVERY supply. And it means, you are once again in nonsense mode.

What will you say, if I put this into your mouth:

 

If I run out of healing potions in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more potions or get kiled. But if fixing the problem of hunger or a lack of potions simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more food or potions then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

If I run out of carrying capacity in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to sell the crap I collected or throw it out. But if fixing the problem of a lack of carrying capacity simply means walking out of the dungeon and selling the stuff, then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

If I run out of lockpicks in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more lockpicks or get stuck. But if fixing the problem of a lack of lockpicks simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more lockpicks, then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

Ok, it's getting boring.

Besides, I hope Eternity will have also item fatigue, like Betrayal at Krondor or Arcanum. Just think of it: you have to repair your gear or WALK OUT OF A DUNGEON to get it repaired.

 

And strangely, you've been able to write something reasonable at the end:

Limited resources need to actually be limited if they are going to have any value. That goes for food, ammo or even just gold. Don't make gold too easy to come by. If you have a limited amount of gold and food and ammo aren't dirt cheap, that could solve all of these problems all at once. Now you actually have to sacrifice buying that new sword if you want to buy more arrows and food. That would allow non-combat skills like crafting or hunting to be very valuable too.

[ogrezilla]

If I run out of arrows in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more arrows or switch to a sword. But if fixing the problem of hunger or a lack of arrows simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more food or arrows then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

The need of resupply? In RPG? Unbelievable, that shouldn't be! And the best thing is, you can say THE SAME THING about EVERY supply. And it means, you are once again in nonsense mode.

What will you say, if I put this into your mouth:

 

If I run out of healing potions in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more potions or get kiled. But if fixing the problem of hunger or a lack of potions simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more food or potions then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

If I run out of carrying capacity in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to sell the crap I collected or throw it out. But if fixing the problem of a lack of carrying capacity simply means walking out of the dungeon and selling the stuff, then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

If I run out of lockpicks in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more lockpicks or get stuck. But if fixing the problem of a lack of lockpicks simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more lockpicks, then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium.

 

Ok, it's getting boring.

Besides, I hope Eternity will have also item fatigue, like Betrayal at Krondor or Arcanum. Just think of it: you have to repair your gear or WALK OUT OF A DUNGEON to get it repaired.

 

And strangely, you've been able to write something reasonable at the end:

Limited resources need to actually be limited if they are going to have any value. That goes for food, ammo or even just gold. Don't make gold too easy to come by. If you have a limited amount of gold and food and ammo aren't dirt cheap, that could solve all of these problems all at once. Now you actually have to sacrifice buying that new sword if you want to buy more arrows and food. That would allow non-combat skills like crafting or hunting to be very valuable too.

 

the bottom was the whole point. The rest are examples of poor design. If a problem can be solved as simply as walking back to town (and isn't a story element like actually talking to someone), then its hardly a problem even worth having in the game. I would welcome a design where either there are real consequences with my supply management, or don't make me waste time with my supply management. The middle ground where supply management is simply something I occasionally have to do is boring and completely unsatisfying. Never once did I run out of arrows in an old IE game and it led to a memorable gameplay experience. I would love if I had to actually be smart with my arrows. But every single time I ran out of arrows I had the same reaction. "Oh, now I have to walk back to town." It didn't matter where I was or what I was doing. My punishment for running out of arrows was a walk back to town. It didn't add any difficulty to the game. It didn't add any strategy to my preparations. It wasted a few minutes of my time. So in my opinion, it should either have real implications on the game or it should just be removed. I would prefer the former.

 

And yes, this goes for any resource management in the game. Healing potions, gold, carrying capacity, lockpicks, spells, food or brushing my teeth. If they want to require me to go to the bathroom every so often or risk my armor rusting, do it in a way that is satisfying or leave it out entirely.

 

Pretty much everything you changed my post to is something I can agree with. And pretty much all of them can be fixed by having a consequence for leaving a dungeon unfinished. I don't really want it to reset, so I'm not offering a solution to this one actually. In general, I don't enjoy tedium for the sake of tedium. My solutions would tend to side on adding more difficult and valuable choices instead of removing the aspect that can cause the tedium. Don't get rid of the carry weight limit, force me to leave stuff behind. Don't get rid of limited healing, force me to get through the haunted forest with only that limited amount of healing. But then the forest needs to be designed with that in mind.

Edited September 28, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Flying Magician]

Seems the nonense spewing mode is enabled, and mutually exclusive things are present once again. Let's analyze this step by step.

 

the bottom was the whole point. The rest are examples of poor design. If a problem can be solved as simply as walking back to town (and isn't a story element like actually talking to someone), then its hardly a problem even worth having in the game.

 

But every single time I ran out of arrows I had the same reaction. "Oh, now I have to walk back to town." It didn't matter where I was or what I was doing. My punishment for running out of arrows was a walk back to town. It didn't add any difficulty to the game. It didn't add any strategy to my preparations. It wasted a few minutes of my time.

 

And yes, this goes for any resource management in the game. Healing potions, gold, carrying capacity, lockpicks, spells, food or brushing my teeth. If they want to require me to go to the bathroom every so often or risk my armor rusting, do it in a way that is satisfying or leave it out entirely.

(here I have no words)

 

Anyway.

In uh, almost every game, you can run out of many things in the middle of a dungeon, so you have to go back for more.

- potions

- tools (lockpicks)

- spells (scrolls)

- carrying capacity or inventory slots

- food

- ammo

 

Also, other possible needs for going back:

- resurrect dead character

- grind more, monsters are too powerful

- need to find a key item somewhere else

 

Is it the poor design you want to get rid of? You've just openly admitted it is.

I 'm curious who else will agree with you.

 

But! In the previous post, you wrote:

Limited resources need to actually be limited if they are going to have any value. That goes for food, ammo or even just gold. Don't make gold too easy to come by. If you have a limited amount of gold and food and ammo aren't dirt cheap, that could solve all of these problems all at once. Now you actually have to sacrifice buying that new sword if you want to buy more arrows and food. That would allow non-combat skills like crafting or hunting to be very valuable too.

So what, supplies will be limited and hard to get, and suddenly you like it? But it will not eliminate the need of WALKING OUT OF A DUNGEON for stuff. Moreover, it has NOTHING TO DO with the frequency of resupplying, but with general game economy.

 

---

I would welcome a design where either there are real consequences with my supply management, or don't make me waste time with my supply management.

So in my opinion, it should either have real implications on the game or it should just be removed.

Like what? Specify it, if you have anything valuable to say.

 

Edit:

Just noticed:

And pretty much all of them can be fixed by having a consequence for leaving a dungeon unfinished. I don't really want it to reset, so I'm not offering a solution to this one actually.

So you want some magical solution which turn the resupplying into a wondrous experience, but you even don;t know what. And it still doesn't make a sense.

 

---

 

the bottom was the whole point.

I suggest you get to the point immediately in future post, so next time nobody will waste the time of anybody.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Flying Magician

[rjshae]

I'd suspect that's probably the kind of thing that can be managed indirectly through game mechanics. If you're travelling then you'd spend part of your time acquiring food and drink. The more capable you are at that, the faster you can travel. Purchased food can be assumed to be some portion of the gold you acquire, which you'll never miss because it's already factored out of your rewards.

 

A place where it would matter is in a desert, but that could be factored in by some type of lingering exposure effect that costs you resources to repair.

[ogrezilla]

Walking back to town is not the problem I have. My problem is when walking back to town is the only thing I have to do to get more resources and I am free to walk back to town at any time with no consequence then I would absolutely prefer to just have unlimited of those resources. That wouldn't make the game any easier than it already is with the old IE system. It would just make it less tedious. That also wouldn't be my preferred solution to the issue. I would prefer if resource management was made more important in general.

 

Walking back to town really isn't enough of a consequence to actually care about strategic resource management. Never in any of the IE games did I feel like managing my resources was an important part of the game because I could simply go get more whenever I wanted.

 

Potions and Scrolls: I hope these are rare or at least really expensive. I don't want to be able to constantly be drinking potions. If I run out of potions, I shouldn't just be able to walk back to town and get more. I should have to finish what I'm doing without potions.

 

Tools: Similar. If I run out of lockpicks, I should have to deal with the consequences of that. Maybe I can't unlock everything I'd like to unlock. Simply going back to town for more is not a consequence, its a waste of time.

 

Spells: Don't set up a great spell system where I have to make careful use of my spells and then completely ruin it by including a rest system that allows me to get the spells back anytime I want. This is more of a problem with the rest system than the spell system. It worked well for big fights because you had to pick the right spells, but it just encouraged rest spamming any time you had multiple fights in a row.

 

Carrying Capacity: I love the idea behind it. But again, if all it does it require me to go to town and sell stuff, it really doesn't do anything. It should actually encourage difficult choices. You can loot and sell every single item in most of the old games if you don't mind a little inconvenience of walking back to town. Make me leave stuff behind if I can't carry it all.

 

Food: Same as potions or tools or ammo. If I have easy access to unlimited food, then there is no real reason to add a hunger mechanic. It adds nothing to the game. Either make food something that is difficult to manage or leave it out entirely. Go back to the example I gave before about choosing between buying necessary supplies like food or arrows or a new sword. Has the added benefit of encouraging non-combat skills like hunting or crafting.

 

Ammo: Same as food except even in the old system I liked that stronger ammo was limited. I'd prefer for it all to be limited like I said above for food.

 

Walking back to town is not a good enough consequence to be the only consequence for resource management no matter what the resource is. If walking back to town is the only thing I have to do to get more resources and I am free to walk back to town at any time with no consequence then I would absolutely prefer to just have unlimited of those resources. That isn't my first choice, but I would prefer it to the tedium of walking back and forth for no real good gameplay reason.

 

That underlined bit is where I expect you to strongly disagree with me. That's fine. I just don't enjoy tedium for the sake of tedium. I don't think you are really disagreeing with my preferred system where resource management is actually strategic and an important part of the game. Its my alternative solution that you don't like.

Edited September 28, 2012 by ogrezilla

[TwinkieGorilla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Re6pZri8Gw

[Ashram]

Maybe if it were handled where food was kind of a buff of some sort along with the fatigue/requiring sleep like BG series. That I would support. But the last thing I want to hear is "Elf needs food badly!"

[RiceMunk]

Ogrezilla is pretty much giving the reasons why I dislike having the "trivial" stuff like food being a limited supply in games like what I'm expecting P:E to be like.

If the only "punishment" for running out of food in a dungeon is a boring 5-minute trek to town and back, I'd rather just skip the whole limited-food thing entirely.

 

One rather simple way of making proper food preparation an issue would be to have the dungeon respawn if you leave it for a resupply trip. Then in theory, if you go back with the exact same amount of supplies as you did on your first "attempt" and go through the dungeon in the exact same manner, you should just run out of food around the same part as you did the last time. Respawning dungeons brings forth all sorts of extra concerns regarding how to handle loot, experience points etc. with the respawned stuff, not to mention what to do with all the unique encounters in the dungeon. And, most importantly to me, it seems like a really cheap trick. I'd prefer something a bit more refined than what accounts to essentially a "restart level"-button.

 

Ideally having to deal with limited supplies should happen within the context of the dungeon itself. I'm not sure how that would always be possible though without making it excessively contrived.

[Galdegir]

Ogrezilla is pretty much giving the reasons why I dislike having the "trivial" stuff like food being a limited supply in games like what I'm expecting P:E to be like.

If the only "punishment" for running out of food in a dungeon is a boring 5-minute trek to town and back, I'd rather just skip the whole limited-food thing entirely.

 

One rather simple way of making proper food preparation an issue would be to have the dungeon respawn if you leave it for a resupply trip. Then in theory, if you go back with the exact same amount of supplies as you did on your first "attempt" and go through the dungeon in the exact same manner, you should just run out of food around the same part as you did the last time. Respawning dungeons brings forth all sorts of extra concerns regarding how to handle loot, experience points etc. with the respawned stuff, not to mention what to do with all the unique encounters in the dungeon. And, most importantly to me, it seems like a really cheap trick. I'd prefer something a bit more refined than what accounts to essentially a "restart level"-button.

 

Ideally having to deal with limited supplies should happen within the context of the dungeon itself. I'm not sure how that would always be possible though without making it excessively contrived.

 

Then how about another penalty? If you leave the dungeon to go back to town before finishing it you lose all the gold, loot and expierience you gained in it? And when you go back to town buy supplies and star the dungeon again you start from scratch? I dont know if this could be implemented but I like the game to be challenging and Ogrezilla is right that that there should be some system implemented that prevents or penalizes the player for abandoning the dunegon and going back to town for food.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Galdegir

[Wintersong]

I'm a bit puzzled by the idea of "You enter a dungeon, run through two levels, run out of food, go back to town and restock, enter the dungeon again, run through the two same levels, run out of food again, go back to town and restock........". Seems like weird idea and bad system going on there. And not just because of the food but also because of the dungeon design. If stocking food to the maximum capacity still doesn't allow you to finish the dungeon, then the dungeon is badly designed. Either your party is missing alternatives (magical containers, rare foods/rations, some kind of magic item/spell, hunting "food" in the dungeon itself), maybe the dungeon creator assumes that characters will have to starve a little to complete the dungeon (and GET OUT later) or more likely the design simply sucks because it ignores the implemented food system.

 

Plus a dungeon can be very different depending of its inhabitants. Maybe at some point there are some kind of subterranean farms. Or animals that can be used as food (in the possible addition to the killed enemies!). And let's not forget about the possibility of the inhabitants also having their own rations with them. Dungeon ecology and stuff.

 

If any kind of food system is added, you cannot forget about it when designing stuff that may have an impact on it.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Wintersong

[trulez]

No food, no relieving your bladder, no sleeping, none of the Sims stuff please.

[Flying Magician]

If you're unable to manage your resources right, especially before a long dungeon raid, you deserve for every penalty.

[beerflavour]

My first thought was that too much realism might not be suited for a game. Then I was reminded of some older CRPGs.

 

 

 

"Dungeon Hack" had you exploring some random dungeon and you had to take care to not run out of food. Of course you did find food within the dungeon, but resting too often or wasting too much time had you run the risk of starving (-> loosing health and dying). Additionally the food took up valuable inventory space. So the player was forced to make a decision on what to carry along and what not. That's similar to "Eye of the Beholder", "Ultima Underworld", "Questron 2", etc. .

 

"Ravenloft the Stone Prophet" had the player explore a desert area resembling ancient egypt. Here it was important to not run out of water supplies (which matched the theme of the campaign setting). If you ran out of water the characters in the party gradually lost hit points until they died. Of course there were wells and priests could summon water.

 

If players were forced to take along food & water it might lead to constantly making decisions which affect the game. Should I take the loot or better leave the loot and take the food? Combined with the need to carry ammunition for ranged weapons and the need to carry some more basic equipment (e.g. 2-3 weapons per character and ordinary clothes and one set of armor per character) this would limit the freely available inventory slots. Quest items might reduce this even further.

 

 

 

Like other people already mentioned the older Infinity engine games had a mechanism where characters would get exhausted if they went longer than a day without rest. Exhausted characters were pslightly enalized until they had rested.

 

 

 

The first aspect introduces an element of planning. You have to plan ahead and buy enough rations for your party. You have to make trade offs. What will you need in the future? What can you leave behind? The second aspect makes you think about how to travel and explore. If you go too far without resting then you need to rest. But if you are in a dangerous area you might need to travel back to a safe haven. You might be ambushed on the way back, though.

 

There are some interesting points about this (especially the need to plan ahead). The question is whether todays players could accept this.

Edited September 29, 2012 by beerflavour

[ogrezilla]

I'm a bit puzzled by the idea of "You enter a dungeon, run through two levels, run out of food, go back to town and restock, enter the dungeon again, run through the two same levels, run out of food again, go back to town and restock........". Seems like weird idea and bad system going on there. And not just because of the food but also because of the dungeon design. If stocking food to the maximum capacity still doesn't allow you to finish the dungeon, then the dungeon is badly designed. Either your party is missing alternatives (magical containers, rare foods/rations, some kind of magic item/spell, hunting "food" in the dungeon itself), maybe the dungeon creator assumes that characters will have to starve a little to complete the dungeon (and GET OUT later) or more likely the design simply sucks because it ignores the implemented food system.

 

Plus a dungeon can be very different depending of its inhabitants. Maybe at some point there are some kind of subterranean farms. Or animals that can be used as food (in the possible addition to the killed enemies!). And let's not forget about the possibility of the inhabitants also having their own rations with them. Dungeon ecology and stuff.

 

If any kind of food system is added, you cannot forget about it when designing stuff that may have an impact on it.

obviously that would be a poorly designed dungeon. The idea was that if you ran out of food in the dungeon, it was because you poorly managed your food. Or any supply for that matter. That doesn't mean I like the re-spawning dungeons though. It feels very contrived. I really don't have a good solution to offer. Its much easier to point out things that annoy me than it is to provide solutions haha

 

I'm still not particularly fond of the food idea. All of that other stuff like arrows and potions and loot capacity require you to make smart decisions with your supplies. They are things you would actively want to use. You want your archer to shoot things and you want to loot every sweet item you find. But you can conserve your arrows or space by being smart. But with food, its very easy to imagine it feeling like nothing but an arbitrary number to keep track. If it is introduced, I hope it doesn't end up being devolved into simply a quest timer that we can buy more time for. With all of the other resources to manage, tacking on a food system just doesn't seem necessary to me. If managing things like our healing items, our spells and our ammunition I think we will be doing plenty of strategic planning.

 

edit: @beerflavor. that is a good point about making us think about limited inventory space. That is one way it actually requires us to make a choice. But the other resources we already manage do that too aside from spells.

Edited September 29, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Aldereth]

While food is essential in real life, and for many, very enjoyable. But in cRPG It is usually used as a either a buff or debuff. Fact is, it feel like a chore and anything but fun. Yes, there are system with cooking and ingredient matching to create food that act like potion but seriously one may as well call that skill alchemy and the whole "cooking" skill would sound a lot cooler.

 

I suppose this problem could probably attribute to the medium's limitation (more like exclusion) in the department of taste and smell, computer food is never going to be as fun as the real thing. So if one really want the "realism" bit, there is simply the "strategic" element of if you don't eat, you die thing. So it may be a lot simpler just to use food or ration as a limiter to the range the PC party can stray from population center. This could have some place in a Fallout like survival setting. But high fantasy, I don't know, probably a resource sink with questionable gain.

 

On another note, the only instance I may argue that "food" was done reasonably well may very well be drinking blood in that old vampire masquerad cRPG.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Aldereth