The question of class

[BTA51]

I've read a lot about etnic conflicts within the game which I think sound interesting, but it's also something that almost every RPG contains. Something we see a lot more seldom is conficts between classes. Not classes as in rangers vs. wizards, but as in serfs vs. their nobles and workes vs. manufacutry owners. Pesant-revolts against taxes, serfdom and the nobilitys privileges, skilled and unskilled workes revolting i the cities, conflicts within the manufacturies that should start to pop up now historically and so on. I think it would be very interesting if these things were explored.

 

If you look at the historical period that this game is supposed so be similar as (late Middle ages), these conflicts were very common. Merchants not directly tied to land were starting to grow as a powerful class and were starting to demand political rights and question the nobilitys privileges, taxations increased which led to armed revolts on the country side, more and more people lost their land and a class of landless, travelling day-labourers started to appear, revolting artisans in the cities, political ideologies were taking root, and so on. I think there's a lot of potential in this.

Edited September 27, 2012 by BTA51

[Capitalism]

I know something about class conflicts, and this is a great theme to include in game.

[Sensuki]

A struggle of class against class is a political struggle.

 

There are always political struggles.

[Potemkin]

Remember the famous Marx quote from the Communist Manifesto:

 

 

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.

In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebeians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations."

 

I think it would be a great idea to explore class struggles in Project Eternity. Even if the societies that you encounter in Project Eternity are not modern bourgeoisie societies their organizational structure must still be based on class to some extent. And where you have classes you have struggle. Yeah, class struggle as a theme sounds as a great idea! Bring it on!

 

I mean for example we encountered both nobles and commoners in Baldurs Gate but we never got to know what made the nobles noble. Did they belong to some old noble house? Were they rich? Why were they rich? Where did that wealth come from? Etc. During the plague in Neverwinter Nights all the nobles locked them selves up in the Blacklike District whilst their servants (who were not allowed into the district) died on the streets by the plague. But the game didn't explore that class devide more thorough. But it would have been interesting. Imagin leading the servants against the nobles and contaminating them with the plague or something.

Come to think of it, in Baldurs Gate there are a lot of miners mining for some greedy company who makes all the benefits. Come on, let us unite the workers and fight their employers or something. But there are also alot of other powers, people mighty enough to employ mercenaries and such. Where did they get their power and wealth and on whos benefit?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Potemkin

[evdk]

Kill all wizards, the privileged bastards.

 

-Thieves Guild

[Sarog]

I fondly remember how Arcanum included class conflicts. Learning about how the gnomish industrial council staged their secret coup and abolished the human monarchy in a capitalist revolution (and the other deliciously nefarious things they did) was great and memorable. And then there were the orcish factor workers who unionized against the industrial council's exploitation. Done well, these sorts of things are much more interesting than evil cultist A enacting dark ritual B to bring about horrific calamity C.

[Theobeau]

Great idea with class conflict certainly falling under the rubric of a mature theme.

 

With the qualities of writers that OBS posses, PE should certainly do a far better job explaining and exploring complex political issues such as the fair distribution of wealth vs. the right for individual pursuit of wealth or the role of religious institutions compared to the state in providing welfare than the pap we see and hear from current political class.

 

Or they could just go with T&As for mature themes.

[FlintlockJazz]

The Rabbit approves. I have spoken, so it shall be!

[unodoscuatro]

Class conflicts and a more indepth-view of the economic relations of the game world would definitely be an interesting thing to develop on. As Sarog says, stories involving class conflict would be much more 'mature' than your generic evil characters doing evil stuff that the knight in shinig armor (you) have to stop. And what connection could there be between magic and class? What are the social implications when it comes to magic and the economy etc

[Potemkin]

55 votes for class as a theme in PE. And no votes against. That's pretty convincing.

[BTA51]

Wow, seems like there is a hole in the market to be filled Obsidan. Only 1 person against so far and 73 for!

 

It would be cool if we could pick what kind of class our character comes from too, like Dragon Age: Origins had a little of with different backgrounds for different races and subraces. Also NPC:s would react differently depending on your class-background; maybe for example it's easier for a nobleman to persuade another nobleman than for a simple pesant och day-labourer.

[eimatshya]

As long as it isn't limited to a simple peasants = good, nobles = bad, I'd be interested in seeing such a thing in game. For it to be a mature exploration of these issues, however, it needs to examine the effects of rebellion, as well. What happens after the peasants overthrow their oppressive lord? Do they set up an enlightened governing body that rules fairly or do they replace their lord with an equally oppressive regime? How does the deposed lord's suzerain respond to the uprising? Does he send in his troops to topple the new government and instate a new lord? If not, or if the peasants manage to repel the invasion, how does their incipient government get along with the neighboring lords? Are the other lords comfortable dealing with peasants who killed one of the noble class? Do they even respect the commoners of the new government enough to have dealings with them? How would trade with the neighboring regions be affected? How would the uprising affect the relationship between the peasants and their lords in the neighboring fiefdoms? Would the lords treat the lower classes better so as to reduce the chance of rebellion, or would they crack down on the peasants to make sure that they had no opportunity to attempt an uprising? What role(s), if any, could the player have in this situation? Mediator? Instigator? Leader of the rebellion? Leader of the crackdown against it?

 

Anyway, I think that an exploration of the complex nature of class interactions could be very interesting in a game, but I don't know enough about the story of P:E to say whether it should be the game to tackle the issue or not. If it would work well with the themes and plot that Obsidian has planned, then I would love to see something like this. Otherwise, I would prefer to wait for a game where such a conflict would fit in, rather than have it shoe-horned into P:E to the detriment of its narrative.

[Monte Carlo]

I like this idea.

[Thulean]

As long as I am not forced on one side or the other it sounds like a good idea. I do not want to be forced into helping the peasants with their revolt if I do not feel like it. Perhaps I decide to side with the nobles and help to put down the revolt instead. As long as we have options.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Judging by previous forays into class issues by games, I must dissent. Class is a really, really complicated and difficult topic, and I've never seen it represented well, not least because devs aren't generally political theorists. I've rarely been given the choice to have my character make the argument I would make (probably because I'm a Libertarian, a quite small political school, and with few representatives in gaming). As a rule, I think most political problems are ones games should avoid. Racism, say, is a topic almost all of us can more or less agree on. Class ain't, and it detracts from the fun when the game seems to shove one or two specific standpoints in my mouth.

[ramt1n]

Yep, it would be nice to see this in the game.

• Nobles hated by peasants,
  
• Wizards vs nobility (every one with THE GIFT can have influence in the court),
  
• Guild Wars
  
• Nobility vs nobility
  
• witches vs peasants (witch is not a wizard and may be treated differently by the folk - not only stuff like minor healing,making love potions, takes part in the birth of childrens and animals(cows, horses etc), but also as a local catasrophe maker. You know folk should be stupid
  

We should also remember about races silent conflicts (A. Sapkowski, Tolkien's Silmarillion):

• Dwarfs hate Elves because they are pretty, like-hearted and so on...
  
• Humans despise dwarfs - they drink like no one else, they stink (they dont bath and have mushrooms on their backs) and they are eager to start a fight
  
• Humans adore Elves - long living, charm
  

 

Sorry for my bad english, hope its readable

[Silver6986]

Nice idea OP, I agree that if done correctly, the theme of class struggles would make a welcome change to the standard fanfare encountered in most RPGs.

[BTA51]

As long as I am not forced on one side or the other it sounds like a good idea. I do not want to be forced into helping the peasants with their revolt if I do not feel like it. Perhaps I decide to side with the nobles and help to put down the revolt instead. As long as we have options.

 

I agree completely! An RPG that forces you to pick a certain side is usually a bad RPG.

[The Sharmat]

People actually think socio-economic classes are rarely addressed in RPG narratives? Seems pretty common to me.

[dlux]

It would be a pretty boring world if there weren't any political and social dilemmas in it.

[LordCrash]

I think the best RPGs so far in topics like racism, class-struggles, social problems and uprising, persecution, massacers and pogroms, complex political alliances and intrigues and the evolution of a new social and political world order are the two Witcher games which strongly reflect Andrew Sapkowski's literary template. And without doubt Sapkowski's Witcher novels are some of the best books concerning fantasy which have been written in the last two decades, contentswise and literarily. It's a shame that the Witcher cycle about Ciri isn't fully published in English yet, but you shouldn't miss the short stories if you're even a little bit interested in that kind of stuff. If the storytelling in PE could hold to that level (and something like that is the goal I think because Obsidian want to address real mature topics) I would be perfectly satisfied!

[Bos_hybrid]

Meh, Obs have told better stories and created better characters than TW already.

 

Of course I basing this on the games and not the books.

[LordCrash]

Meh, Obs have told better stories and created better characters than TW already.

 

Of course I basing this on the games and not the books.

Obsidian haven't created a better character than Geralt for sure. I've read all Witcher books and played all games (Obisidan and CD Projekt) so far so I know what I'm speaking of. That doesn't mean that Obsidian's characters are bad, not at all, but they clearly haven't the literary finesse of Geralt.

And for the story: you're not even able to understand all details of the stories in the games without knowing the books.

Edited October 2, 2012 by LordCrash

[Bos_hybrid]

Obsidian haven't created a better character than Geralt for sure. I've read all Witcher books and played all games (Obisidan and CD Projekt) so far so I know what I'm speaking of.

 

Bethesda has created better characters than Geralt. Going from what TW 1&2 displayed. Again the books might be good, but I judging the game writing. Not books.

 

but they clearly haven't the literary finesse of Geralt.

 

 

And for the story: you're not even able to understand all details of the stories in the games without knowing the books.

 

Then the game is doing something wrong. I had never played dnd when I played BG/BG2 and PS:T. Didn't stop me from enjoying the story.

 

TW was boring and uninteresting story with one of the stupidest features ever implemented. TW2 was a far better showing in the story department(I actually managed to finish it), but the main characters Triss & Geralt were still forgettable. Letho, Ivoreth, Roche and the setting were what saved it.

[LordCrash]

And for the story: you're not even able to understand all details of the stories in the games without knowing the books.

 

Then the game is doing something wrong. I had never played dnd when I played BG/BG2 and PS:T. Didn't stop me from enjoying the story.

 

TW was boring and uninteresting story with one of the stupidest features ever implemented. TW2 was a far better showing in the story department(I actually managed to finish it), but the main characters Triss & Geralt were still forgettable. Letho, Ivoreth, Roche and the setting were what saved it.

 

DnD is a set of rules not a literary template, that's some kind of a difference. And the Witcher games didn't make something wrong in story and character development because the devs WANTED to build uppon the character created in the novels. CD Projekt never wanted (and never claimed that) to create a new world and new characters, they wanted to create a game in a fully developed setting with known elements. You can't fully understand Geralt (and some of the other characters like Triss) and the whole setting/world without knowing the proper literary background. You can follow the story in the games, for sure, but with the knowledge of Geralts character in depth you would see the games and the characters in a complete different light.

 

This discussion is a bit misleading in this thread, so perhaps we should end it or shift it to somewhere else....

 

So if you look at my first post in this thread you should notice that I didn't talk about the characters but about the setting and the world in which the Witcher games are settled with all the ethnic and social problems. That' what this thread is about and that's what I wrote about. Character development is a nice topic to discuss but it's not the right place here.

Edited October 2, 2012 by LordCrash