Romances, yay or nay?

[Malcador]

I doubt most of the people asking for romances just want to be showered with love.

 

Personally I'd like to see them use their freedom to tackle romances with mature issues involved instead of just a path to a happy ending. For exemple if there was a love interest that would cheat on the pc, you could forgive or break up, but they would keep doing it; this way the only happy endind would be to walk away from the romance entirely. That's the kind of thing that sounds interesting to me, see what my choices say about me in the end, something beyond "would you like to have sex with an elf?".

 

Hyperbole, but generally that's what you'd get out of the "romance", some NPC stroking your ego as a player.

[SqueakyCat]

Why not just make two versions of the game? One for the men and one for the women. The female version of the game would be chock full of romances written by actual females (not by MCA). The male version would not have any romances that aren't a part of the main plot, but it would have an extended story that results in the same amount of overall development time. I used to think it would be a great thing if more women liked to use computers and play computer games, but it has turned into a curse. Men and women simply don't like the same kinds of stories. Hollywood has figured this out already. They have films, like Sleepless in Seattle or other RomComs, that are specifically targeted toward women where they don't expect to have any male viewers at all (with the exception of the ones who are forced into it by their wife/gf). Unlike Bioware, the Obsidian designers seem to be mostly male. I can't imagine any of them are too thrilled with the idea of writing romances. Surely that's not what they signed up for. It's like getting a job at Sony designing the next AIBO robot dog and then finding out they also expect you to clean the toilets. I guess that might be why hiring an extra writer was mentioned. Presumably some woman who doesn't mind writing that sort of stuff. Incidentally, it's hard for me to imagine any self-respecting man begging for romances in a computer game. Romances are a girl thing. You may as well wear lipstick and pink panties.

 

Wow . . . I hardly no where to begin given all the generalizations you made in your post.

 

Okay, I'm female but do not wish to have romances tacked on to the game (at least not Bioware's model). Where do I fit in your little world? Will I need to purchase the oh-so-manly version of the game?

 

Oh, and by the way, I don't wear lipstick and my husband prefers black.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....and_video_games

Edited September 25, 2012 by SqueakyCat

[DaCostaBR]

I doubt most of the people asking for romances just want to be showered with love.

 

Personally I'd like to see them use their freedom to tackle romances with mature issues involved instead of just a path to a happy ending. For exemple if there was a love interest that would cheat on the pc, you could forgive or break up, but they would keep doing it; this way the only happy endind would be to walk away from the romance entirely. That's the kind of thing that sounds interesting to me, see what my choices say about me in the end, something beyond "would you like to have sex with an elf?".

 

Hyperbole, but generally that's what you'd get out of the "romance", some NPC stroking your ego as a player.

 

 

 

True, and they're simply badly done fanservice. Which is why we hope whatever Obsidian chooses do is something better than that.

Edited September 25, 2012 by DaCostaBR

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

But please, no codependency, no daddy/ trust issues (well, unless they're uniquely handled)

These concepts are actually not the core issue. The core issue is that the player and the character are treated as valiant and amazing for their participation. I do wonder what it might be like to have a deeply disturbed and dysfunctional romance in an RPG. Instead, we get what is VERY wrong and dysfunctional in normal, real-life romance and it gets treated as not only normal, but abnormally great. That's just....it gets creepy.

[Sistergoldring]

So long as they add to the story and are consistant with the character of the NPC then I'm all for them, extra interaction is always good and fleshes out the world in a personal way for the PC. If they are Skyrim like marriages then no its pointless. That's just how I feel about it anyway.

[hideo kuze]

Wow . . . I hardly no where to begin given all the generalizations you made in your post.

 

Okay, I'm female but do not wish to have romances tacked on to the game. Where do I fit in your little world? Will I need to purchase the oh-so-manly version of the game?

 

Oh, and by the way, I don't wear lipstick and my husband prefers black.

 

http://www.forbes.co...ime-online.html

 

http://en.wikipedia....and_video_games

mmm... why do you lurk at romance threads then?

 

The truth is worse than what metiman said. Since the male counterpart seems to be more interested in sex simulators (why are the most popular mods the nude or sex ones?). If that fits the male stereotype or the horny male stereotype or the forever alone stereotype, I really don't care.

 

I'd say there is interest from both guys and girls, although a different percentage.

 

 

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I'm now in favor of having the modding toolkit.

That will make possible to have all sorts of romances and variations. * available at your loverslab dealer *

 

Let's face it, Avellone is not a romance writer, it's not what he does, therefore making him do such a thing would just torment him.

Just let the man write companions as he sees fit without any romantic demands.

[SqueakyCat]

@ hideo kuze

 

lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk . . . .

 

I actually try to read all the threads daily. This one, in particular, has been so hotly contested so it's fun to follow.

 

Oh, and I don't like being lumped into some archaic stereotypical model . :\

[metiman]

Threads are sort of like computer games. To be interesting there needs to be at least some fighting. Some conflict. It's boring when everyone agrees with each other. And besides, this thread is often on the first page. It's hard to resist clicking on it, reading some outrageous statement from a Biowarian, and feeling my head explode in nerd rage. This is a game that some of us have been waiting for for a looong time. Biowarians already have a game company dedicated to their needs.

 

As for the male love of porn. Yes, it is true, but I don't think most of us take those naked mods too seriously. Surely no one actually plays the game that way (unless they are playing ironically). It has already been mentioned how women are behind nearly all of the fan made romance content, and sadly those things are taken seriously.

 

Personally, I think you girls have taken the wrong approach here in getting your romances added in. Instead of arguing for romances on their merits and preaching equality of the sexes you should be arguing how unfair it is that the male designers just completely ignore the needs of girl gamers who must have romance. If you accuse them of being sexist you might be able to get a few token romances thrown in.

[SqueakyCat]

Here's 10 virtual bandaids for your bleeding knuckles . . . enjoy!

[Gorth]

Personally, I think you girls have taken the wrong approach here in getting your romances added in.

Funny choice of words since the majority of "romances" so far seems to have been targeting male gamers.

[metiman]

That's probably because the writers were male and had a hard time writing them from a female perspective. Historically the supply side has been mostly male, but the demand side is mostly female. Also there are a lot more female gamers now than there used to be, which is awfully lucky for Bioware. Who else would buy their games? Maybe the founders left because they realized that their RPGs had somehow morphed into romance simulators and they were so ashamed they decided to move to some remote island in the South Pacific. EA itself is more thick-skinned. As long as the money keeps rolling in they're happy.

[themanclaw]

I say yes.

Obsidian proved they could make romances subtle (when needed) and fairly deep in KotOR 2. When a romance is done right, it also reflects the character in the romance, not some generic, cookie-cutter "i love you (kiss)". If this is accomplished, it will bolden the characters adn make the story a deeper-feeling experience. And to all the naysayers-- nobody is forcing you to participate in the romances (or at least I think Obsidian wouldn't do that).

Also, I think a simple "yes or no" poll would have been a good idea if not for specificity, then at least to get a general idea of how much the community wants romance options.

Edited September 25, 2012 by themanclaw

[Monkcrab]

..................Yes, and all the Talimancers asking for more cuteness are lesbians pretending to be dudes. The guys arguing about who's better between Ashley and Liara are all either talking about the size of their boobs or doing it for the sake of argument.

 

Seriously, there are guys who like romance. It's okay for guys to like romance. It's okay for guys to accept that other guys can like romance.

 

Similarly, there are girls who go 'ick' at romances, and would prefer more camaraderie/banter instead of smooches. It's okay for girls not to like romance. It's okay for girls to accept that other girls can dislike romances.

 

Humans, in general, have a tendency to like love stories. Whether we want it in medium X or not is another issue. Perhaps the ratio of male to female romance-liking RPG gamers are not equal (it's likely not), but to say that all the romance requesters are girls and the guys are all begrudgingly going with it is.....well, not reasonable.

[Gorth]

Also, I think a simple "yes or no" poll would have been a good idea if not for specificity, then at least to get a general idea of how much the community wants romance options.

I deliberately didn't do it as a poll because I hate them and try to stay clear of them. If people feel like something, let them crawl out of the woodwork and present their view rather than an anonymous choice of an option and then hitting the 'vote' button. I don't think anybody has ever taken poll numbers seriously anyway

[licketysplit]

Personally, I think you girls have taken the wrong approach here in getting your romances added in.

Funny choice of words since the majority of "romances" so far seems to have been targeting male gamers.

 

It's no secret novelists, movie makers, game makers, well every form of entertainment categorizes both sexes. If the differences weren't true to some degree, they wouldn't persist like they have. I like my vampires white, pasty, and looking like the villain in the original Nosferatu. A whole hell of a lot of women like them as a sparkly twenty-something Brit. So...do I want to play a game designed with women in mind, romances or otherwise? To be honest, not really.

[Monkcrab]

Personally, I think you girls have taken the wrong approach here in getting your romances added in.

Funny choice of words since the majority of "romances" so far seems to have been targeting male gamers.

 

It's no secret novelists, movie makers, game makers, well every form of entertainment categorizes both sexes. If the differences weren't true to some degree, they wouldn't persist like they have. I like my vampires white, pasty, and looking like the villain in the original Nosferatu. A whole hell of a lot of women like them as a sparkly twenty-something Brit. So...do I want to play a game designed with women in mind, romances or otherwise? To be honest, not really.

 

Plenty of women hated Twilight. In fact, nearly everyone I've talked to above a certain age bracket hated it. Not saying that it negates the fact that a lot of other women also liked it, but 'women like Twilight' is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Yes, there are trends of what women like that are different from what men like, but the usage of Twilight is not a 1:1 correlation. It's like saying men likes bald marines with huge guns. True to an extent, but hardly the entire truth.

 

David Gaider liked Twilight, though.

 

p.s. can this not turn into another 'war of the sexes' thread?

Edited September 25, 2012 by Monkcrab

[Gorth]

A whole hell of a lot of women like them as a sparkly twenty-something Brit.

 

Wouldn't "woman" imply somebody older than 16???

 

Yeah, just kidding. No twilight androgynous characters in my video game please. I once saw 15 minutes of one those on free-tv. Who would have thought commercial breaks a blessing so I could tear myself out of the shock induced paralysis (a traumatic experience). I would like to say that taste improves and refines with age, but I would lie if I didn't admit to some very base desires occasionally, but I like to think it doesn't necessarily come at the expense of appreciation of the more sophisticated things.

 

It does call for some eye-rolling when you see the more juvenile expectations and preconceptions of gender roles.

[ravenshrike]

A whole hell of a lot of women like them as a sparkly twenty-something Brit.

 

Wouldn't "woman" imply somebody older than 16???

Clearly you've never been to a movie theater on a night where twilight was opening. Figure at least half the crowd in the waiting line I passed on the way to my movie was over 30 and female.

[Ieo]

Personally, I think you girls have taken the wrong approach here in getting your romances added in.

Funny choice of words since the majority of "romances" so far seems to have been targeting male gamers.

 

It's no secret novelists, movie makers, game makers, well every form of entertainment categorizes both sexes. If the differences weren't true to some degree, they wouldn't persist like they have. I like my vampires white, pasty, and looking like the villain in the original Nosferatu. A whole hell of a lot of women like them as a sparkly twenty-something Brit. So...do I want to play a game designed with women in mind, romances or otherwise? To be honest, not really.

 

Because culture is the biggest influence in perpetuating gender role expectations across generations and centuries. It takes a ridiculous amount of constant backlash covering a large portion of a given generation to make any dent in these kinds of social expectations. The biological differences are distinct but still less than most people realize. Look at the Baby X experiments and the influence of all the people around us.

 

I'm reminded of an analysis written on Pixar's recent film, "Brave." Those of us who paid any attention must know that there's been quite a lot of controversy and critical social analysis of this one, silly kid/family film. But a quote from Peggy Orenstein really struck me (I don't know anything about her otherwise):

 

I have no doubt there are a lot of good men at Pixar, but if they’d grown up in an environment in which it was totally normal for them to see movies with girls in the lead, maybe it wouldn’t have taken 17 years for the studio to get around to making a girl the star. And I’m with Orenstein in hoping that Brave does well enough to encourage the studio to make more movies with girls in the lead.... “The fact that we have to put this much analysis into this movie is really a symptom of the problem,” Orenstein says. “I just want to see such a broad range of female characters onscreen that we don’t have to have a discussion every time one comes out.”

 

With regard to gaming, discussion of the treatment of the female sex both within the game and as gamers relating to content comes up often, particularly in genres like this, but I don't think women gamers have strong advocacy from broad media venues. Keep also in mind that much of the self-advocacy being done by women gamers are asking for equal "decent" representation--e.g. romance options--compared to male gamers. Anomen-vs.-Viconia/Jaheira/Aerie in BG2 is a perfect example of this.

 

I still don't care for 'romantic' content in PE, but if Obsidian decides to do so and promises to put effort into equal and good representation, then fine. It's one thing to argue about the merits of the general content type, but seeing arguments degenerating into the men vs. women sexism definitely shows how far the gaming "community" as a part of larger society still has to go until such things are no longer worth discourse except in historical context.

[themanclaw]

Because culture is the biggest influence in perpetuating gender role expectations across generations and centuries. It takes a ridiculous amount of constant backlash covering a large portion of a given generation to make any dent in these kinds of social expectations. The biological differences are distinct but still less than most people realize. Look at the Baby X experiments and the influence of all the people around us.

 

Indeed. An important thing I've learned from social and cognitive psychology is that men and women basically have the same clockwork. It is commonly believed that things like women being attracted in particular to the guys who are d-bags, or men being attracted in particular to dull women are genertically hard-coded from our days as cave people. This is a misconception. Our hardwired genetic code for cognitive functions is much less specific, an example of which would be something like facial recognition. The prior mentioned stereotypes are a result of a layering of societal norms. As such, Obsidian, having created their own societies, needn't make their characters conform to typical gender expectations. I think that is a good opprotunity to cast aside cheesy cliches.

[Monte Carlo]

Seriously, there are guys who like romance. It's okay for guys to like romance.

.

 

And for these girly-men there is Bioware, where their needs are more than amply catered for.

 

It's okay for guys to accept that other guys can like romance.

 

No it isn't. I shall mock them whilst I cast an eye over my collection of manly things and revel in my manly ways.

[Monte Carlo]

Because culture is the biggest influence in perpetuating gender role expectations across generations and centuries. It takes a ridiculous amount of constant backlash covering a large portion of a given generation to make any dent in these kinds of social expectations. The biological differences are distinct but still less than most people realize. Look at the Baby X experiments and the influence of all the people around us.

 

Indeed. An important thing I've learned from social and cognitive psychology is that men and women basically have the same clockwork. It is commonly believed that things like women being attracted in particular to the guys who are d-bags, or men being attracted in particular to dull women are genertically hard-coded from our days as cave people. This is a misconception. Our hardwired genetic code for cognitive functions is much less specific, an example of which would be something like facial recognition. The prior mentioned stereotypes are a result of a layering of societal norms. As such, Obsidian, having created their own societies, needn't make their characters conform to typical gender expectations. I think that is a good opprotunity to cast aside cheesy cliches.

 

Your post made me go WTF, then I noticed you were from California. So I put on some whale-music and this post suddenly made more sense.

[Gorth]

Clearly you've never been to a movie theater on a night where twilight was opening.

What a scary thought

 

Hmm, cheesy cliches. Sounds like an obvious target for Obsidians deconstruction tendencies.

[themanclaw]

And for these girly-men there is Bioware, where their needs are more than amply catered for.

"No I don't have feelings 'cause feelings are gay." -MC Vagina

 

Your post made me go WTF, then I noticed you were from California. So I put on some whale-music and this post suddenly made more sense.

Can't tell if acting like a ignorant fool or just trolling.

In any case, excuse me for assuming research in modern psychology and neuroscience conducted under the scientific method is more valid than whatever anecdotal experience you have.

[Troller]

Back few days ago, I was all for Romances being implemented, but I changed my mind, so nay