[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

[salty]

I feel like people only want it because that's how it used to be. Let them think up their own system.

I think this could be said in half the threads on this board. I hope they don't limit their own good ideas by trying to stay too faithful to the old games. As good as they were, the old games all had flaws. The combination of the magic and rest systems was a pretty major one.

 

Yeah, like I said I trust Obsidian to come up with something that's both fun and makes some kind of sense.

 

Something I forgot to add is that I don't think casters should be physically weak. Casting spells would be physically demanding, imo. That's the one explanation I could understand with Vancian stuff - the wizard's been sitting around reading all their life and can't do more until they've gone on an ~adventure~ and are getting more in shape.

[Infinitron]

COOLDOWNS CONFIRMED

 

Time to rage

 

http://www.kickstart...ernity/comments

 

 

Creator Obsidian Entertainment 15 minutes ago

 

@David Holmin What we are moving forward with right now is a system that does not require a pure round system. In the IE games, each person was running their own six second round and spells were based on whether they were memorzied. How we look at it, rather than going with a memorization system for spells, in particular, we can use a cool down system. It's a similar balancing system without requireing the whole resting for spells. As for ablities being on that timer, D&D also had certain abilities that could only be used a certain number of times per day - again we want to mimic that with a cool down system.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[ogrezilla]

I feel like people only want it because that's how it used to be. Let them think up their own system.

I think this could be said in half the threads on this board. I hope they don't limit their own good ideas by trying to stay too faithful to the old games. As good as they were, the old games all had flaws. The combination of the magic and rest systems was a pretty major one.

 

Yeah, like I said I trust Obsidian to come up with something that's both fun and makes some kind of sense.

 

Something I forgot to add is that I don't think casters should be physically weak. Casting spells would be physically demanding, imo. That's the one explanation I could understand with Vancian stuff - the wizard's been sitting around reading all their life and can't do more until they've gone on an ~adventure~ and are getting more in shape.

I said it a few post up, but I hope this soul concept allows them to get away from magic being purely intellectual. Tying it to some internal soul could make it more of a physical ability instead of a function of memorizing spells.

[mikayel]

Sigh. Bard and Sorcerer casting is inferior to Vancian. I'm tired of repeating why

But you didn't explained why. You think you did, but you didn't.

 

Very well sir, in the spirit of fairness I shall try to explain myself thoroughly here.

 

What you actually did was arguing about the *balance* of these specific classes, which is *completely* irrelevant, as we aren't talking strictly about these specific classes (that most likely won't even be in P.E), but just about the mechanics they rely on for spell memorization/use.

 

Well, the classes rely uniquely on those casting mechanics -- as such, talking about those classes is also talking about the mechanics. But ok, I'll drop referring to the classes and refer to Vancian or SP exclusively.

 

Going back to what I summarized in my Batman V Superman point -- it boils down to this. Vancian allows you to not only limit player over-kill by limiting high end spells, but it also allows for players to switch what spells they are using apropos to what encounter or dungeon they are going into. SP systems limit how many spells you can potentially cast by having a lower number of spells known, but allow for more castings of the relevant spells at that time. The problem here is if you choose to pick bad spells that have limited use (like perhaps elemental Direct Damage or Hit-Die capped insta-kills) then you can no longer opt to drop those spells in favor of a previously unused one because you had chosen to permanently take the damage/kill spell instead.

 

Now, the flexibility of Vancian casting is not only that, but it also allows for the idea of "scribing" scrolls into your book, which if you do with an SP system, will make Wizards or Casters even more ridiculously overpowered because now, the previously only thing holding them in balance (their limited repertoire of known spells) can grow so long as they get their hands on spell-scrolls. KotC did this, and it made Wizards overpowered (more so than usual D&D). However, KotC was a simple dungeon crawling hack n slash that specifically was about killing, looting, and more killing and never pretended to take itself seriously in anything other than turn-based combat.

 

I already pointed it to you, but you ignored my point and you preferred venting about how outraged you were by me namedropping Chaos Chronicles.

No one needs your explanation about on why a mage is superior to a sorcerer (learning from scrolls, using higher level spells at parity of level, etc) because no one cares and that's not the point.

 

You think the above and the below are separate, I disagree, the better a system is in its use the more fun it is to play.

 

The point, instead, is: which mechanic of spell memorization/use is more fun and rewarding gameplay-wise. And that's exactly why all your rant about knowing where the name "Vancian" comes from was completely pointless from the start.

 

And I think Vancian is the more fun system because it is more flexible. Also, I never ranted about you not knowing what "Vancian" was, but rather, Spell-Ponit-per-Level. You don't even know what I thought you didn't know, :D

[ogrezilla]

so in function it could be very similar to the old IE games. Just without the idiotic rest spamming.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla

[mikayel]

I get that the explanation is something like that, from some book. It just doesn't make sense to *me*. I find Vancian casting really, really dull in low levels and really silly in high levels. I'll still play a mid-level wizard and enjoy it, but at the two extremes it's not remotely enjoyable.

 

And how in the world does "holding" copies of the same spell in your mind and it takes up more than one spell slot make any sense? If you can memorize a certain number of spells based on your level, why can you only cast them once? What? Guess I'll hit the rest button after every battle.

 

Basically, I would like them to craft their own magic system, but for me: Finding and crafting spells instead of just suddenly knowing them when you level is good. Having to prepare things for spells before you are ready to fight is good, because maybe there are ingredients that are used. Being able to cast more based on fatigue (not "mana") makes the most sense to me. And potions that restore fatigue (CAFFEINE) makes sense if it's a little dangerous to use without real rest for several days, like it definitely is irl. But basing your whole system off a book most people haven't even heard of, and are thus unable to wrap their heads around? Not good.

 

I feel like people only want it because that's how it used to be. Let them think up their own system. For the record, I don't like the concept of mana and I don't like cooldown timers, either.

 

Its not that its what it used to be, but rather that it is a tried and tested system that has proven itself better (in my mind and in the minds of others) over cooldowns, mana, mp, or spell-points. Ultimately it just boils down to what you like of course but the reason I like this system is because I believe it is a better designed system.

 

Also, my explanation of magic words was just crap I made up. I have not read Dying Earth and so I do not know what Vance's original explanation was. But... I mean, we're talking about magic here. There's no "real" explanation, so anything that we can come up with is just BS that you either are willing to accept as sufficient enough for why your little pixel dudes get to go pew-pew or not.

[mikayel]

So, will there be any form of magic-resource management or only cooldowns of varying lengths?

[Metabot]

I never understood the hostility to cooldowns...maybe make them longer, but disliking them on principle doesn't make sense to me.

[rjshae]

Rage? I think not. That seems like a reasonable approach for a CRPG.

[ImRhoven]

I have no problems with this. The rounds system always annoyed me a bit, this seems to be an improvement while achieving a similar effect on gameplay.

[ogrezilla]

It seems to me like the Vancian system is largely designed to encourage strategic use of spells instead of using them in every fight. But in the old IE games, that is completely negated by the rest system since you could have your maximum number of spells available for every significant fight in the game.

[Bill Gates' Son]

I never understood the hostility to cooldowns...maybe make them longer, but disliking them on principle doesn't make sense to me.

 

I guess it's just Vancian magic fans just don't like the cooldown system. Cooldowns are not a bad system (although I can understand some hate since the system is used a lot in MMOs), and it can actually mimic the whole Vancian system in some ways without the resting thing.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Bill Gates' Son

[Metabot]

I don't think the opposition to cooldowns has to do with rounds, it has to do with using abilities and spells strategically and sparingly.

[Hypevosa]

If it's not like DAO, then I'm fine with it - I just want spells to be genuinely potent, interesting, and useful like in BG2. I want spells that level whole troups of kobolds, and high level spells that take a chunk of health out of deadly foes, not arcane blast...

[Metabot]

I think that if they made it so that you have to use varying tactics each encounter then the game will be balanced around using cooldowns effectively instead of just using the most powerful one as soon as it comes up.

[ogrezilla]

I don't think the opposition to cooldowns has to do with rounds, it has to do with using abilities and spells strategically and sparingly.

Why do people say this like you had to use spells strategically or sparingly in the old IE games? Not you specifically, but I have seen quite a few people say that those are strengths of the old system.

[Fast Jimmy]

Mana pools can be done in games, but there has to be MANY limiting resources.

 

For instance, a game can regenerate mana completely in-between combat, but it has to make it so a magic using character is a sitting duck if they run out during a battle, forcing them to use high-cost spells sparingly.

 

Similarly, a game with mana potions can work, but only if the game requires that you drink them fairly often and makes them very expensive or rare.

 

Games that have neither, but require rest to gain back mana must then have penalties to resting after every fight. Whether that be a limitation of never resting in dungeons or outside of an inn, or a food/hunger mechanism where lost time also means less food and the risk of starving (which would then need a weight mechanism or a costly food price). You could also always include a very punishing ambush mechanic, where anytime you sleep you run a chance of fighting during said sleep, where you would be at low strength and lose the chance for surprise.

 

All of these solutions are possible and have been done in games... but Vancian casting solves all of them. There are very little balancing issues, no resource management systems, no worrying about players being able to spam powerful spells an entire fight - the limitations are all built in. It could work differently, but the concept - only letting a magic user access abilities a certain number of times during a given area - is a solid one.

[Shevek]

This smells a lot of "streamlining." They are walking a slippery slope. I hope they do so carefully. We pretty much have to wait and see at this point.

 

I will say, deep down, it just feels wrong.

[GammaHamster]

How we look at it, rather than going with a memorization system for spells, in particular, we can use a cool down system. It's a similar balancing system without requireing the whole resting for spells.

 

Does this mean extremely long cooldowns?

 

I surely hope so, it will suck to have mages turned to archers that instead of arrows shoot sparkly crap every 2 seconds.

[DCParry]

Vancian magic doesn't make any more sense than mana pool magic. Why can a 180 IQ wizard who's been studying all their life only memorize 2 spells? How many do you think YOU could memorize. I understand that maybe you'd screw it up from lack of practice, but I remember things I was forced to memorize as a child without thinking about them for 5 years.

 

Note that I never read the books it was based on.

 

Because a magic system is a mechanical set of rules that are necessary to allow for (hopefully) balanced gameplay and whether or not they are explained in fluff or plot is a bonus, not a necessity.

 

Aside from that, let us assume that when you are able to shape the very physical nature of matter, time, space, and everything inbetween with words alone (or words and gestures) that maybe those words are of a different nature than common words and holding too many in mind will cause you to die, or something.

 

I mean, really, what's more important that the game system be balanced, effective, and fun, or that there be a satisfying one paragraph explanation in a manual?

 

See, you present your opinion as an absolute. For me, it is the other way around. Lore and coherent world design are not fluff to me. I want to play a game, not a spread sheet. Ideally, mechanics and lore are developed side by side. Ironically, and apparently almost uniquely, in many ways I enjoyed the BG series and PST DESPITE the rules system, not because of it. D&D mechanics have their place, and are best used when mitigated by a human hand. Transferring them to a computer was great fun (I say this as someone who consumed hundreds and hundreds of hours of the SSI box sets) but I think we have the freedom to incorporate a more nuanced system with being tied to an older, table top designed system.

 

TLDR - Lore and story is not fluff. Good explanation and good mechanics are not mutually exclusive.

[Hypevosa]

the way he compares it to D&D but says they're cool downs to make you not need to sleep makes it seem like you'll slowly recover spells so you just aren't required to use the rest button when the rest of your party is still perfectly able, which is alright with me.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Hypevosa

[Gurkog]

IE games = put fireball into every slot, spam, then rest after battle. Rinse. Repeat. That sure involved a lot of analysis and strategy. Very few fights actually benefited from using anything other than evocation spells.

[ogrezilla]

the way he compares it to D&D but says they're cool downs to make you not need to sleep makes it seem like you'll slowly recover spells so you just aren't required to use the rest button when the rest of your party is still perfectly able, which is alright with me.

That's what I'm thinking too. The biggest thing that loses from the vancian system is that you can't load up multiples of the same spell.

[Shevek]

Gurkog: You CAN play that way but the system in the old IE games allowed you to play other ways as well. I would argue, if you are playing a wizard that way in the old IE games, you are doing it wrong and should have rolled a sorceror.

[mikayel]

DCParry -- I agree, they do not need to be exclusive (Blood Points [an SP system] used in Bloodlines is a good example of lore+mechanics). Rather, what I am saying is that if I had to pick between good lore or good mechanics, I'd pick mechanics every time. I realize this is just my view, and I do not think it is the gospel.

 

Ogrezilla, that is true -- but in a proper D&D game the DM would not let you rest after every kobold. In cRPGs however there is not a stringent enough resting limit -- something like not being able to sleep for 8 hours after only 30 minutes of waking time would be obvious, as would bigger threats to resting in dangerous areas (not just being attacked, but flat out being killed, robbed, kidnapped, separate, etc.). That, however, is not Vancian issue, it is a poor balance issue. After-all, MP systems can also be prone to rest abuse (and in many jRPGs, that is the best way to grind -- blast everything with uber moves then use a nearby resting point to regenerate everything).