BioWare Founders Retiring!

[Tale]

The insults leveled at Mrs. Hepler were beyond the pale. I'm ready and willing to say negative things about Bioware's games and speculate things that may be considered insulting about the process of developing them. I'm a jerk sometimes about it in all likelihood. But that is a whole other level of crass.

 

I think Nepenthe's the one who opened my eyes to it, the SNR is simply out of hand. It's no wonder Bioware games have difficulty with fan feedback. Nobody wants to read that crap.

[GhostofAnakin]

And I'm afraid that that's what everybody in Bioware thinks. Ultimately, I greatly preferred DA2 over ME3, since the first was a (simple) stand-alone adventure with minimal links to any greater arc, while ME3 managed to essentially destroy a really great trilogy: In spite of really good episodes in the story, it does come have more *facepalm* moments than any Bioware story I've partaken in, and don't get me started on the endings. Even after the tweaking, they all leave a bad taste in your mouth, you're either forced to sacrifice somebody else due to a contrived plot mechanic to survive, or become a fascist overlord controlling the future of everybody (essentially in the other two endings). I'm sure you've dismissed among others the Tali-effigy building loonies, but people in general do become attached to characters in stories - the main character in an (RP)game being a special case, since it's essentially a player avatar. The psychological impact of what the ending is and was seems to have been completely overlooked, and later misunderstood.

 

Look at me, becoming another one of the broken records...

 

Agreed, especially with your points about ME3.

 

On the subject of ME3's financial success, I think it was a financial success but I don't think those sales correlate with it being a product that fans loved. ME3 is a financial success because fans were excited about the ME series and looking forward to the conclusion to the trilogy. How many of the sales were pre-orders? How many were Week 1 sales, before news of the endings spread? How many sales were from folks who owned the first two games and had the mindset of "I might as well see how it ends"?

 

It's similar to George Lucas' prequel trilogy, IMO. I'm sure it's made Lucas a boatload of money, but the general feeling on the quality of the movies is poor despite the fact it was a financial success.

[Grimlorn]

It's not really flattery lol.

 

I do think there's a problem when I catch myself thinking "fans are stupid" all the time though. Hanging out on the BSN has opened me to a ton of jabs and snide remarks, but in general most of the people aren't actually so bad.

 

And these articles that try to throw the brunt of the blame on the consumers are BS. Until Bioware or EA takes responsibility for their actions, none of this stuff is going to change and you'll be going through more PR disasters.

 

I'll wilfully state that DA2 was a subpar game and we can do a lot better. But you'll never convince me that the way the Hepler situation played out was "overstated." You can't tell me "BioWare shouldn't be surprised people are mad at the ME3 ending" and then somehow prevent human beings from acting like human beings with their personal twitter accounts. I suppose it was eye opening that apparently we need to all behave like celebrities and recognize that many of them can't even use a twitter account without recognizing that people are going to stalk and attack it. I think it's a sad state of affairs, however, when I feel like I shouldn't even bother with twitter because I happen to work for a video game company prevents me from doing other things that human beings often do.

 

That you're willing to make excuses for these people says plenty though. Under no circumstances should the things that were said ever be said to another human being. Though you probably got the nice shiny version that you read about on the internets. All because some people fabricated a position in order to attack her. The whole situation sickens me and while you may say "You need to just roll with the punches" I hold people like Aaryn no ill will for standing up for a friend regardless of his position at BioWare.

You're saying I'm making excuses for these people? Look how emotional you're getting. Maybe I missed some of the things that were said. From what I read it seemed like a lot of the worse stuff came after the vagina comment.

 

It still doesn't matter if they said the worst things you can say to a person. You keep your mouth shut and move on. You don't pour gasoline on the fire. You don't let what every 12 or 13 year old says get to you. I'm sure it last a lot longer because of the reaction you gave those people.

 

And this is humans being human btw. Deep down most people are ****, the internet just gives them a voice without the consequences of it.

 

I don't know what position you're referring to that was fabricated. It was pretty obvious from that interview she preferred skipping combat in favor of getting to the story/cinematics in the game. Combat is a pretty important in RPGs and she works on them. She's just a writer but it's going to draw criticism from gaming fans.

 

And about the whole twitter thing, you're going to piss people off when you make a bad product that they can't return. You guys go for making games that are emotionally engaging for people. So when you guys ruin that with the third installment, you're really going to piss people off. The average player probably put 100 hours of their lives into those 3 games. And that's just with 1 playthrough on each game. Probably more with subsequent playthroughs. They have a right to be upset. Again if you can't handle the public outcry don't have a twitter account that you post for Bioware on, don't be a spokesperson for Bioware. It's as simple as that. You could also try making great RPGs that make sense, instead of churning out action games with tons of cinematics.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Nonek]

I know I wanted to skip combat a few times as I played Dragon Age 2. Let's see i've walked ten feet since that last conversation, yep it's time for combat yet again. Probably followed in another ten feet by conversation.

 

 

Yay.

 

 

And yet usually i'm a combat courtesan.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Nonek

[licketysplit]

So now that Greg & Ray are fired gone, I guess EAs top management can finally ravage BioWare like vultures ravaging a cadaver without any opposition. Expect more people leaving.

 

Ray and Greg did precious little to mitigate EA's influence. Them being gone might actually be a good thing for Bioware.

[213374U]

I do think there's a problem when I catch myself thinking "fans are stupid" all the time though.

Heh. I work in customer service and sometimes I find myself thinking "everyone (but me) is an idiot". I've realized that's not really a problem, just a sign that I need a 5-min break.

 

It's interesting though, why some attitudes seem to flourish while others spontaneously stifle, on different communities. The BSN is much more over-the-top, to put it that way, than the Obsidz boards (sorry guys), while both cater, in principle, to more or less the same kind of people. Worthy of note is that moderation over there is much more heavy-handed but that doesn't seem to faze the regulars. I've only really been involved with the ME3MP part of the forum, but I remember being perplexed that the threads that contained the most substance invariably drew the most hate. Group dynamics are funny like that.

 

 

And this is humans being human btw. Deep down most people are ****, the internet just gives them a voice without the consequences of it.

Nice outlook. This sort of thinking makes you feel better if/when you are asterisks yourself or...? I know I've behaved like asterisks myself here sometimes to a point I'd probably have lost some teeth if I wasn't behind a screen in the ass end of Europe. But then again I've had that IRL too, and I can honestly say I never sought to personally hurt anyone with my antics. I try to make no assumptions about people online anymore.

 

Seriously, it's pretty sad that you think so lowly of "most people". Especially when you most definitely don't know "most people".

[Hurlshort]

Most people also grow out of behaving like an asterisk.

[Nonek]

Even Gauls?

Edited September 29, 2012 by Nonek

[Malcador]

Most people also grow out of behaving like an asterisk.

 

Eh, more a case of resisting being pushed into acting like one I think, outside of the usual proverbial guns to the head - work, etc. Most of the stuff I saw lobbed at that woman wasn't all that bad - usual stuff you see from football louts at least, nothing worth exceptional outrage to me at least. But I think the whole Indoctrination theory was proof enough Bioware's uber fans have a mental illness.

[Gorth]

You're saying I'm making excuses for these people? Look how emotional you're getting.

Sorry mate, but you seem to be the only getting emotional here...

 

It still doesn't matter if they said the worst things you can say to a person. You keep your mouth shut and move on. You don't pour gasoline on the fire.

Wrong. You don't let **** "win", or you'll never get improvement on netiquette.

 

And this is humans being human btw. Deep down most people are ****, the internet just gives them a voice without the consequences of it.

This is the *real* core of the problem. Anything else is just excuses for acting like asterisks without fear of repercussions.

[alanschu]

You're saying I'm making excuses for these people? Look how emotional you're getting. Maybe I missed some of the things that were said. From what I read it seemed like a lot of the worse stuff came after the vagina comment.

 

Just how emotional am I getting? You seem to be pretty emotional! (We could go all day with this btw )

 

As for making excuses: You're dismissing it as being "well people are just stupid." Yes, that's making excuses, especially when BioWare employees aren't able to also just be people. I'd rather speak my mind (which it seems like many people actually want us to do, in retrospect) than just spit out what I think would be best for corporate policy. The amount of people that PM'd me hoping that I wouldn't get fired for speaking out against the ME3 endings was baffling (it outpaced my Gmail spam at one point), when the reality is I didn't hear a single word from anyone on the ME team aside from a friend going "I see you posted on the ME3 forums!"

 

I'll agree that the internet lets people spout off and say stupid things without consequence. Doesn't mean they aren't stupid for doing so. I'm not really a big fan of Anita Sarekeesian, but the public response many of those people made towards her kickstarter is epic facepalm worthy too. I don't lose sleep over it if you're concerned about stuff like that, but it's certainly a negative reflection on the gaming community and one that I'll speak out against because I feel that saying nothing is the worse option. You can rationalize that I'm being overly emotional about it, but I have no way to prove otherwise so you're free to feel the way that you want.

 

 

I don't know what position you're referring to that was fabricated. It was pretty obvious from that interview she preferred skipping combat in favor of getting to the story/cinematics in the game. Combat is a pretty important in RPGs and she works on them. She's just a writer but it's going to draw criticism from gaming fans.

 

Quotes were deliberately taken out of context, and years old, to go on a crusade.

 

Planescape: Torment taught me just how non-essential combat is to an RPG. Since it only detracted from that game and I consider it probably the best RPG experience I have ever had (and I'm really looking forward to Project Eternity). I find it interesting that rarely is combat what I find fun about RPGs, especially since I can find combat (often executed better) in almost any other game as well. In fact, RPGs that provide compelling non-combat options are typically more interesting.

 

 

Most people also grow out of behaving like an asterisk.

 

I'd like to think so. I'm not entirely sure though. I've noticed most people dismiss the outspoken types as being teenagers (I remember friends in my WoW guild calling the Horde a bunch of 12 year olds because they always ran into people that would gank them and corpse camp them and stuff). I'd bet money that these people are probably closer to a decade older than most people think.

 

I mean, numbers man is still an asterisk! >.>

Usually several!

 

I don't think I really use asterisks, but I am certainly not afraid to speak my mind as I've gotten older. It's actually spread to real life (rather than just on forums) which has actually cost me some friendships, but in retrospect they were kind of faux friendships anyways since clearly I felt the need to get something off of my chest.

 

 

But I think the whole Indoctrination theory was proof enough Bioware's uber fans have a mental illness.

 

[Grimlorn]

You're saying I'm making excuses for these people? Look how emotional you're getting. Maybe I missed some of the things that were said. From what I read it seemed like a lot of the worse stuff came after the vagina comment.

 

Just how emotional am I getting? You seem to be pretty emotional! (We could go all day with this btw )

 

As for making excuses: You're dismissing it as being "well people are just stupid." Yes, that's making excuses, especially when BioWare employees aren't able to also just be people. I'd rather speak my mind (which it seems like many people actually want us to do, in retrospect) than just spit out what I think would be best for corporate policy. The amount of people that PM'd me hoping that I wouldn't get fired for speaking out against the ME3 endings was baffling (it outpaced my Gmail spam at one point), when the reality is I didn't hear a single word from anyone on the ME team aside from a friend going "I see you posted on the ME3 forums!"

Nope you accused me of defending those people, when all I basically said was people will be people. That's not condemning or justifying their actions. You don't jump to those conclusions unless you're upset about what you're hearing. Also, just to clarify I'm not emotional. Not sure what would give you that idea.

 

I wasn't dismissing it either. I was saying you can't do anything about it and responding makes it worse. You can justify it all you want but the fact of the matter was some of those people were probably kids that you guys were swearing at. You guys made it worse by responding in kind. Like I said if you can't handle the spotlight and criticism, then don't be a public spokesperson for Bioware. I didn't hear anything about EA flipping out when they were voted worse company in America. They just shrugged it off in an interview and it passed with time. No one will forget Hepler's comment or the **** off, **** you comments Bioware employees made on Twitter in response. And that's the truth of the matter.

 

All I hear is a bunch of excuses for Bioware's actions but no responsibility being taken for them. And like I said until Bioware starts taking responsibility for their actions, you guys will keep on making bad games and keep on having PR disasters.

[Gorth]

All I hear is a bunch of excuses for Bioware's actions but no responsibility being taken for them. And like I said until Bioware starts taking responsibility for their actions, you guys will keep on making bad games and keep on having PR disasters.

You keep repeating this, but what exactly *is* it you seem to feel that Bioware should take responsibility for? That some gamers are jerks with self entitlement issues? That some gamers lack the emotional and intellectual maturity to realise they are playing games? That they seem to get "attached" to fictive characters? Or is it simply that some guy oversold something (which might not have been the reality at the time of selling the point) and thereby mismanaged expectations? The only cure for that is not to share any information before a games release besides the usual non-committing marketing drivel. That usual leaves those who feel entitled to more very unhappy too.

[Grimlorn]

All I hear is a bunch of excuses for Bioware's actions but no responsibility being taken for them. And like I said until Bioware starts taking responsibility for their actions, you guys will keep on making bad games and keep on having PR disasters.

You keep repeating this, but what exactly *is* it you seem to feel that Bioware should take responsibility for? That some gamers are jerks with self entitlement issues? That some gamers lack the emotional and intellectual maturity to realise they are playing games? That they seem to get "attached" to fictive characters? Or is it simply that some guy oversold something (which might not have been the reality at the time of selling the point) and thereby mismanaged expectations? The only cure for that is not to share any information before a games release besides the usual non-committing marketing drivel. That usual leaves those who feel entitled to more very unhappy too.

Why are you making excuses and defending them?

Consumers didn't create DA2 half finished and market it as if it were.

Consumers didn't create ME3 which goes off the deep end at the end of the game with a nonsensical ending.

Bioware tries to appeal to those gamers that get attached to fictive characters. And because they've given them a voice and place to gather and be as crazy as they want, they go off the deep end when you don't give them what they want.

 

Bioware can't control those people who get upset at them and criticize them, they can just control how they react to them. Instead of justifying their actions and blaming the consumers they should take a look at themselves. Pretty basic stuff that should go without saying.

[Gorth]

Why are you making excuses and defending them?

Now you are getting emotional again. I'm not excusing Bioware, you are the one excusing people who are being abusive.

 

Bioware can't control those people who get upset at them and criticize them, they can just control how they react to them. Instead of justifying their actions and blaming the consumers they should take a look at themselves. Pretty basic stuff that should go without saying.

I find it pretty basic stuff, that if people have a beef with a company's decisions they simply stop buying games from that company. No matter how hard you try to excuse them, there are no excuses for stalking, harassment and being abusive towards individual people.

[Malcador]

Wonder why their fanbase is like that though, most other diehard fans aren't so wacky. Dumb of them to write all those nasty words about that woman though, defeats their purpose so to speak as Bioware can show that as being victims of bullies, etc.

 

Also there's no excuse for me calling CliffyB a douchebag ? What is this world coming to!

[Gorth]

CliffyB? Sounds like a rapper. You never know

[Hurlshort]

Consumers didn't create DA2 half finished and market it as if it were.

Consumers didn't create ME3 which goes off the deep end at the end of the game with a nonsensical ending.

 

DA2 wasn't literally half finished, I'm pretty sure it was playable to the end. I wouldn't know for sure, I disliked the game from the start. I'm pretty sure that wasn't Bioware's intention though, so I don't believe angry rants on the internet will accomplish anything.

 

Bioware also released a free extended ending sequence for ME3, so in that case it looks like they did examine themselves when faced with criticism. I'm not sure what else you expect.

[Orogun01]

DA2 wasn't literally half finished, I'm pretty sure it was playable to the end. I wouldn't know for sure, I disliked the game from the start. I'm pretty sure that wasn't Bioware's intention though, so I don't believe angry rants on the internet will accomplish anything.

 

Bioware also released a free extended ending sequence for ME3, so in that case it looks like they did examine themselves when faced with criticism. I'm not sure what else you expect.

ME3 was; despite his faults, visibly finished and DA2 was not. DA2 felt like a primitive beta version of the game that they released after cutting a few corners in order to make it profitable, which i'm sure it was.

On the other hand I seriously doubt that two industry veterans can't handle criticism, so maybe some BW fans have an overestimated opinion of themselves (probably from playing the games, heyoo) if they think that they're the cause.

[Volourn]

• "E3 was; despite his faults, visibly finished and DA2 was not. DA2 felt like a primitive beta version of the game that they released after cutting a few corners in order to make it profitable, which i'm sure it was."'
  

DA2 was finished. Whetehr you like it or not is irrelevant. It was finished.

 

 

"On the other hand I seriously doubt that two industry veterans can't handle criticism, so maybe some BW fans have an overestimated opinion of themselves (probably from playing the games, heyoo) if they think that they're the cause."

 

The Oyster moran is the one spamming the stupid silly cash grab of the unneeded BG EE. Also, one of the docs has already called him out on being wrong. The docs did not quit because people were being mean on the internet. That's poppy**** and anyone who believes that crap is insane.

[Bos_hybrid]

 

I don't know what position you're referring to that was fabricated. It was pretty obvious from that interview she preferred skipping combat in favor of getting to the story/cinematics in the game. Combat is a pretty important in RPGs and she works on them. She's just a writer but it's going to draw criticism from gaming fans.

 

Criticism maybe, but that's not what she got. Although I do think that it was handle wrong, by replying to the crap that came from people, they did exactly what the crap spewers wanted.

[Stun]

Ooh! Wow. I missed this thread. I'd like to say I'm fashionably late, but I'm not. I just friggin missed this thread. I just discovered it Right now.

 

It was pretty obvious from that interview she preferred skipping combat in favor of getting to the story/cinematics in the game. Combat is a pretty important in RPGs and she works on them. She's just a writer but it's going to draw criticism from gaming fans.

Sure, If they're dim-witted knee-jerk reactionaries. Which they definitely proved to be. Because She's Right. She's spot on. Nevermind the fact that she makes those comments as a Bioware writer, who has every reason to hold such a viewpoint (Ironically enough, the only thing you *can* skip through in a bioware game is.... the cutscenes. Ie. HER stuff.... the stuff that She and the other Writers have written. Go Figure.) Oh, and since when is giving the player a gameplay choice in a video game ever a bad idea?

 

But forget all that noise. The fact of the matter is that DA2 (for example) would have been a MUCH better game if it had a skip combat button. I know *I* sure as hell found myself wishing I could skip past those stupid, boring street fights every night in Kirkwall. Didn't you?

Edited September 30, 2012 by Stun

[Nonek]

Or they could make a better and more intensive combat system, with far fewer but more challenging opponents. I'm not against combat in rpg's, just the busywork of badly implemented repetitive slaughtering, especially when there should be other paths open to the protagonist. Just having a skip button seems somehow to be a little cheap and nasty, taken to its logical conclusion eventually you'd just have a button on the loading screen saying, "press X to win."

[Grimlorn]

Why are you making excuses and defending them?

Now you are getting emotional again.

Nope. Quit making stuff up or maybe you're just trolling. I don't know.

 

I don't know what position you're referring to that was fabricated. It was pretty obvious from that interview she preferred skipping combat in favor of getting to the story/cinematics in the game. Combat is a pretty important in RPGs and she works on them. She's just a writer but it's going to draw criticism from gaming fans.

 

Criticism maybe, but that's not what she got. Although I do think that it was handle wrong, by replying to the crap that came from people, they did exactly what the crap spewers wanted.

This is true. They gave them the attention they wanted because they couldn't ignore it, and in turn made it worse. No one can say who exactly said what, because of the anonymity of the internet. But Hepler's and other's comments are forever attached to their names and were also equally in bad taste.

Or they could make a better and more intensive combat system, with far fewer but more challenging opponents. I'm not against combat in rpg's, just the busywork of badly implemented repetitive slaughtering, especially when there should be other paths open to the protagonist. Just having a skip button seems somehow to be a little cheap and nasty, taken to its logical conclusion eventually you'd just have a button on the loading screen saying, "press X to win."

Exactly. Instead of stripping out features and making them skip-able, they should work on making those features fun instead. Combat is a pretty big staple of RPGs. There shouldn't be a button to skip it. There really shouldn't even be resources dedicated to that. They should instead invest in making it fun. There really isn't any way to take Hepler's comment out of context. Her position is pretty clear. Edited September 30, 2012 by Grimlorn

[alanschu]

You can justify it all you want but the fact of the matter was some of those people were probably kids that you guys were swearing at

 

Actually, the sad thing is that I bet they probably weren't. There's no shortage of 20 and 30 year olds that act like petulant twits as well. Furthermore, the kids aren't the ones that grew up with games like Baldur's Gate and I know for a fact that some of the people that got on . I think it'd be decidedly eye opening if anonymity were suddenly gone on the internet and people were immediately accountable for past comments.

 

I can understand someone stating it was unprofessional of how Aaryn and Jen initially responded (it was), but to pull out the "but the children" argument? I mean, they possibly swore at children (that were being foul mouthed belligerents). To quote Kurtz: The horror the horror.

 

Like I said if you can't handle the spotlight and criticism, then don't be a public spokesperson for Bioware.

 

People shouldn't need to change their cellphone numbers or deactive social media accounts because they're literally receiving emotional and physical threats, because she gave an honest answer to an interview several years ago.

 

 

Bioware can't control those people who get upset at them and criticize them, they can just control how they react to them. Instead of justifying their actions and blaming the consumers they should take a look at themselves. Pretty basic stuff that should go without saying.

 

Part of listening to feedback is dissemenating genuine complaints and what is just loud and boisterous individuals that feel slighted. People wonder why it took a while to approve the extended cut, but we have to make sure it's not just some near militant group that vocal but ultimately quite small. It happens with every game (some guy told me that I should have been aborted as a fetus so that BioWare could have hired more competent QA before releasing a piece of trash like DAO), and you're deluding yourselves if you don't think it makes us (even on the DA team) go "Hmmm, that was quite the reaction ME3 got. In what ways is this bad? Are there any ways that it's good? What should we do differently and how should we do it?"

 

Frankly for DA3 we have our own fish to fry anyways. I don't think DA2 is as good of a game as DAO, and it's on us to make it a better game.

 

 

Exactly. Instead of stripping out features and making them skip-able, they should work on making those features fun instead. Combat is a pretty big staple of RPGs. There shouldn't be a button to skip it. There really shouldn't even be resources dedicated to that. They should instead invest in making it fun. There really isn't any way to take Hepler's comment out of context. Her position is pretty clear.

 

Since RPG can't even be consistently defined, it's probably best to point out that this is what you value in an RPG. There's no shortage of people that don't particularly care for combat in RPGs, and frankly BioWare's combat in some insanely popular games like KOTOR is frankly pretty lackluster. It doesn't stop many people from considering it BioWare's best RPG experience. Nor does it stop people from challenging that notion.

 

Given that I find the best RPGs are the ones that enable the player to minimize combat, I frankly disagree with your idea that combat is essential to an RPG. That it's roots were in D&Desque dungeon hacks from the 80s that were all combat is irrelevant. To be perfectly frank, combat is often one of the weakest aspects of RPGs mechanics-wise, and gamers have historically been all too willing to excuse shoddy mechanics and questionable gameplay decisions. Alpha Protocol is one of my favourite RPGs but many of it's game mechanics (and I don't mind the Deus Ex/Mass Effect style of skill progression) are clunky and in many cases random. But the conversations are the best I've ever seen and the level of reactivity in the game is pretty mindblowing. I've already mentioned that PST's combat is pretty crap (especially early in the game) but it's my favourite RPG of all time. The best ending as far as I'm concerned is where you don't even fight the final boss (it's also what I loved about Fallout, which is easily #2 on my favourite RPG list)

 

Lets look at another one like Fallout 3 (and by extension New Vegas). It's combat isn't particularly refined either. As a straight up FPS the AI often behaves absurdly and the mechanics aren't that great. VATS is a decent work around but it also allows "sprint up to the enemy as close as possible and blast all your shots at 95% accuracy at your opponents head" as being a viable tactic (I think it'd be better served to be on a bell curve where getting too close offers accuracy penalties to firearms since it's a whole heck of a lot easier to dodge a gun when it's 1 foot away as opposed to 15 feet away). Having said that I excuse the mechanics because I'm still able to have fun with the combat, and FONV added mods which made the weapons a bit more fun to play with, and had (unsurprisingly) some really damned good writing and excellent characters. Not to mention really well done player choice (probably the best in the biz IMO. I'd love for BioWare to adopt some of Obsidian's perspectives in terms of character choice as well as non-combat options).

 

 

Having said that, DA2's combat can definitely stand improving. I agree with Nonek that encounters should be made more meaningful. I think fans are on the mark that they found waves frustrating, mostly just insofar as HOW the waves were implemented. Waves can still work, if there's a proper context for WHY it should be happening and it doesn't completely undermine the positioning the player has set up. A frequent perspective of fans on the DA3 forums is that they didn't mind the idea of having combat be more responsive and interactive than DAO's, but that we pretty much way over jumped the gun and need to dial it back. There are those that prefer DAO's combat to DA2's, and would like a middle ground, just as there are those that prefer DA2's combat that still think it would be better to "meet in the middle." Of course there's still those that feel DAO/DA2's combat is far superior and we should just use that, but those viewpoints are not as frequently stated since the DA3 forums opened up.

Edited October 1, 2012 by alanschu