[Merged] PROTIP: Replace the "Player House" stretch goal with multi-language support

[True_Spike]

Most non-native speakers who are able to communicate in English will be able to play the game, sure, but they won't be able to fully grasp the narrative's nuances, they won't be able to fully appreciate its diversity and their experience will suffer because of that.

If you're playing a localised version of a game your experience will suffer either way. Every localisation I've ever come across is inferior to the original product. Many of those narrative nuances get lost along the way because the translators couldn't fully grasp the narrative themselves or simply didn't bother to. After all, they have to rewrite a ridiculous amount of text - they simply don't have the time to ponder on every word's exact meaning.

 

I cannot agree. Polish version of BG1 & BG2 was far superior to the original. The voice-overs were of top quality and were far more believable than in the English counterpart. I ended up playing the English version, because I played a lot with different mods and they were all available in English - and a partial translation wrecks your immersion. I couldn't believe my eyes (and ears) how inferior the original felt to the Polish version. Overall, your experience will suffer if you're playing a TRANSLATED game. I want to play a LOCALIZED game. Most developers brand their straight-up translations as localizations, but that's a problem of false advertisment. It's all about the quality of the work done. In most modern games it costs a ****ton to localize a title well. Text-based games are not affected by this problem.

 

And contrary to what people believe, it's not hard to "translate a lot of game text". The text is not specialized, you do not need to have any educational background to grasp the narrative, just a proper understanding of (semi)literary texts. It's not poetry, either, and it all comes down to reproducing the effect the original has on the player. It's a skopos translation. As for the proper names and other fantasy-lingo - most of the time proper equivalents already exist within the target language.

Edited September 18, 2012 by True_Spike

[the proctophantasmist]

(now compare with Linux players....)

 

Will you people stop using that argument! I'm a French speaking Linux user, I'm gonna harm myself if you continue, I feel like the ugly duckling.

[Chaz]

Most non-native speakers who are able to communicate in English will be able to play the game, sure, but they won't be able to fully grasp the narrative's nuances, they won't be able to fully appreciate its diversity and their experience will suffer because of that.

If you're playing a localised version of a game your experience will suffer either way. Every localisation I've ever come across is inferior to the original product. Many of those narrative nuances get lost along the way because the translators couldn't fully grasp the narrative themselves or simply didn't bother to. After all, they have to rewrite a ridiculous amount of text - they simply don't have the time to ponder on every word's exact meaning.

 

This is not neccesarily the case. The narratives nuances shouldn't get lost, they are replaced by nuances that could be understood appreciated by the new audience.

 

But I think it's too early to think about translation, they barely met their first stretch goal, if in the next two weeks they raise 3 times what they asked like Wasteland 2 maybe it can be considered.

[Lostbrain]

Ah, that's true. I've recently play at the original version fo BG 2, and the english voices was soooooo bad compare to the french ones. VO is not guarantee of quality.

But I'm not interested in Voice acting, I think the most important is the FIGS of the text, not voice recording in theses languages.

[Zaynah]

Most non-native speakers who are able to communicate in English will be able to play the game, sure, but they won't be able to fully grasp the narrative's nuances, they won't be able to fully appreciate its diversity and their experience will suffer because of that.

If you're playing a localised version of a game your experience will suffer either way. Every localisation I've ever come across is inferior to the original product. Many of those narrative nuances get lost along the way because the translators couldn't fully grasp the narrative themselves or simply didn't bother to. After all, they have to rewrite a ridiculous amount of text - they simply don't have the time to ponder on every word's exact meaning.

 

This is true to a point -- some localisations are certainly better than others. The problem is that the translators are mostly just that: translators. They usually do not have a background in RPGs or fantasy or have all the background information to make sense of the text in front of them.

 

But this is not really a discussion about the quality of translations. If you only know the localised version, you usually don't know what you are missing. The real question is whether someone who is not a native speaker of English would donate (more) money to this project if translations were stretch goals.

[Hornet85]

 

I think most people would be fine to have both, but at the moment having a "player house" is presented as being the biggest achievement. I think that's were the controversy is coming from. There are people thinking, that multilanguage is a basic feature that should be done first. Baldur's Gate 1, both Icewind Dales and Planescape: Torment worked without having a player house. It's a nice feature, but not essential, especially as the momentary stretch goal doesn't mean its gonna be be fleshed out like crossroad keep in NWN2. It's more of a simple quarter to store items and companions, maybe doing some crafting ('though afaik nothing has been said about about crafting up to now).

 

 

There's always more extended goals coming. And to be honest, I don't think 2 or even 3 million is going to be enough to do translation. The developers have said voice acting is very expensive and so they have to find a balance of doing for the most important part as much as the budget allows.

 

Now imagine if we have to translate to 5 different languages for example. The voice acting cost itself will increase 5 folds. Not to mention hiring quality translator for all texts. (If the translation is not accurate, the story is going to get messed up).

 

If they can raise 20 millions, I think it shouldn't be a problem, lol. I don't know. But I doubt a small budget will be possible

 

Just IMO.

[Marlow]

English isn't my native language too, but i dont have problems to play english games,generaly. As long as Project E will not be have the dialogue system of Alpha Protocol, it doesnt matter for me, if the game dont will be transtlated in german.

 

Also i dont know how translation QA works, but many german translations are really really bad and sucks all the way along. Also german "voice actors" suck, so i do prefer english voice actors with german subtitles.

 

In Alpha Protocol this way wasnt that good anyway, but i dont think Obsidian use the same sytem for Project E. So:

 

If translation, please only translate the text of the game and dont look for german voice actors. It don't worth it, believe an old 15 years experienced gaming veteran

 

I remeber the days i play baldurs gate 1. The german "voice actors"(amateur is the better word) were horribly bad at acting. They also add german acent to the elfs and other things that destroy the atmosphere of the game.

 

 

So:

 

Dont remove the housing strech goal(i love this!!!), only add a mulit-language support goal. And please only translate the text. Thank you very much

 

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

I fully agree too!!

-------------------------------

This is this first Thread i start to read and i'm so disappointed about what i read here!!

All the guys who speak against a multi language support, WHAT is your problem?!

Is there fear, that the game will not good enough when the budget is reduced?

Can you not accept, that people have more fun when they can play a game in their own language?

 

It is really enough if only the texts are translated and the voices remain in English

 

With regards, Marlow

[buggeer]

Here I've found some

in Skyrim. The polish version sounds really bad... There isn't even a guitar background. I couldn't find one for BG2 - maybe that one was better but there is no guarantee that the localisation of PE would be a good one. Edited September 18, 2012 by buggeer

[Nepenthe]

Polish version of BG1 & BG2 was far superior to the original.

*laughs hysterically*

 

 

No seriously, lmayonnaise sandwich is the order of the day.

[Qumi]

Making a game based on "the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration" and not considering a translation is kind of weird and a non-sense for me....

 

Ok English is spoken by lots of people but hey c'mon, French isn't spoken just in France (the same for Spanish, etc.). Not considering a translation is like cutting a part of the audience (in Europe) and at the same time for players which English isn't a native language and who are going to play the game they won't experienced the game as aimed because of playing with a dictionary next to the computer.

 

Wkipedia :

French is spoken by 200 M people in the world

Spanish by 400 M

German by 100 M

 

(now compare with Linux players....)

 

Moreover, i think announcing a translation (just text is enough) should help raising more funds - i personnaly hesitate before giving 25$ as French is my native language (and cross my fingers for a Translation)

 

Greetings from France (French people mostly understand basic English, but lot's of them are not enough confident with it to play a game in English - just imagine an RPG....)

 

Source Wikipedia:

 

Language Number of speakers

(in millions - 2009)^[108] Mandarin 845 (Total of all Chinese languages 1,200 million) Spanish 329^[109] English 328 Arabic languages 221 Hindi 182 Bengali 181 Portuguese 178 Russian 144 Japanese 122 German 90,3

 

See no French here... French has about 70-80 millions of speakers, not 200....

[lolaldanee]

i am pretty certain not translating to at least french and spanish will lose obsidian more money than the translation would cost - those are huge markets where much of the audience isn't speaking english well enough to play the game - and i'm going as far as to say even a german translation would earn at least as much as it would cost

Edited September 18, 2012 by lolaldanee

[Qumi]

Polish version of BG1 & BG2 was far superior to the original.

*laughs hysterically*

 

 

No seriously, lmayonnaise sandwich is the order of the day.

 

The voice-acting was better, IMHO.

[Avantenor]

There's always more extended goals coming. And to be honest, I don't think 2 or even 3 million is going to be enough to do translation. The developers have said voice acting is very expensive and so they have to find a balance of doing for the most important part as much as the budget allows.

 

Now imagine if we have to translate to 5 different languages for example. The voice acting cost itself will increase 5 folds. Not to mention hiring quality translator for all texts. (If the translation is not accurate, the story is going to get messed up).

 

If they can raise 20 millions, I think it shouldn't be a problem, lol. I don't know. But I doubt a small budget will be possible

 

Just IMO.

First of all, there won't be much voice acting. Second thing is, we're talking about screen text translations. I don't know the exact budget of the infinity games, but I don't think they had 20 million dollars. That was the budget of Crysis 2 with high realistic 3D graphics. Drakensang was said to be about 5 million Euro, today that would be about 6,5 million Dollar, and was a full 3d game like Neverwinter Nights.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Avantenor

[buggeer]

This is this first Thread i start to read and i'm so disappointed about what i read here!!

All the guys who speak against a multi language support, WHAT is your problem?!

Is there fear, that the game will not good enough when the budget is reduced?

Can you not accept, that people have more fun when they can play a game in their own language?

 

I do not know how about others but I am against localisation because it usually means that people who choose their version will get an inferior version. If the translation will be like most on the market they will not be able to enjoy most of the easter eggs, they will be rid of language based humour and they will be unable to see a lot of cultural references. A great example is this: http://elderscrolls....ckaxe#Minecraft I've yet to hear about a translation that comes even relatively close to the original.

[Hornet85]

There's always more extended goals coming. And to be honest, I don't think 2 or even 3 million is going to be enough to do translation. The developers have said voice acting is very expensive and so they have to find a balance of doing for the most important part as much as the budget allows.

 

Now imagine if we have to translate to 5 different languages for example. The voice acting cost itself will increase 5 folds. Not to mention hiring quality translator for all texts. (If the translation is not accurate, the story is going to get messed up).

 

If they can raise 20 millions, I think it shouldn't be a problem, lol. I don't know. But I doubt a small budget will be possible

 

Just IMO.

First of all, there won't be much voice acting. Second thing is, we're talking about screen text translations. I don't know the exact budget of the infinity games, but I don't think they had 20 million dollars. That was the budget of Crysis 2 with high realistic 3D graphics. Drakensang was said to be about 5 million Euro, today that would be about 6,5 million Dollar, and was a full 3d game like Neverwinter Nights.

 

There is still voice acting, and you can't leave them out if you're going to translate the game.

 

The dev themself have said they will be finding the right balance, it is expensive, there's no two ways about it. You need voice actors for different languages, even if its just for one line it will still cost money.

 

Inflation over the years would meant the cost would be significantly higher too. You can't compare what you can do with 6 million back then to what you can afford with it now.

 

So 2.2 million is far from enough. Like I said, if we can achieve much higher budget then yes at a point it will become viable. But not at 2.2 million, so it has got nothing to do with 2.2 million goal.

[Marlow]

but I am against localisation because it usually means that people who choose their version will get an inferior version. If the translation will be like most on the market they will not be able to enjoy most of the easter eggs, they will be rid of language based humour and they will be unable to see a lot of cultural references.

Sorry, for me is it only an excuse!

[Avantenor]

There is still voice acting, and you can't leave them out if you're going to translate the game.

You can. Alpha Protocol was never really voice translated, the same thing for games like Metal Gear Solid 2, several Final Fantasys or Max Payne. Doesn't mean I would vote against full localisations, but it's not necessary.

 

Inflation over the years would meant the cost would be significantly higher too. You can't compare what you can do with 6 million back then to what you can afford with it now.

 

So 2.2 million is far from enough. Like I said, if we can achieve much higher budget then yes at a point it will become viable. But not at 2.2 million, so it has got nothing to do with 2.2 million goal.

At least I can see what Brian Fargo aims for Wasteland 2 with 3 million dollars including text translation and modding tools. So it's not impossible.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Avantenor

[buggeer]

Sorry, for me is it only an excuse!

 

It comes from experience. A few years back I was playing every game only with localisations - fan-made or "professional". Then I've discovered Steam. At that time most games on Steam had only English, Spanish, German and French language packs so I started playing in English. It was like a revelation. A whole new level of immersion and meaning has opened before me.

When I look back I'm simply angry at local distributors that decided to put their versions on the discs (most of the time it meant that the English one was removed...). It's as if they've robbed me. My gaming experience was inferior just because the translators were bad at their job.

Today, in an era when English is tough even in kindergardens the localisations aren't really needed.

Edited September 18, 2012 by buggeer

[Carlitus]

I think the approach of the first message was wrong.

 

I guess we need to claim for FIGS translations. Not to change a promised feature to an "i wish that". Be reallistic. First, the promised. Then, we can speak.

 

The project is a success. Surelly, the Project Eternity will surpass the 2.2 million goal, even 2.5 or 3 million. So, the proposition of change the player house to localisation is a time loss. Obsidian will get the funds for player house, even enough to more goals.

 

-----

 

I can't believe some users are saying it's not important the translation of a game. Specially an inmersive rpg. I never had the chance to learn english. I just learned english using Internet and playing some videogames. As you can see, I do not write very well english. I can play a game only in english, but not a game with complex sentences.

 

I used the damn Amazon to aid Obsidian fund their project. I will play the game. But i will not enjoy the game as Obsidian plans it must be played.

 

Using an example. Obsidian is (hypothetically) a german company. It starts the 'Projekt Ewigkeit' (sorry german people for the translation) with the same scope and goals as is. The USA gamers will say the same 'please add more features, localisations is not important'?

 

-----

 

In some european countries, if the game comes without localisation, it will lose sales.

 

I know in Germany and France there's laws that any intellectual property must be localised to german/french to distribute in their countries. This include videogames. This is not the case for Project E. The game will be distributed from USA, so the european inhabitants must pay duty for the physical box, even if it's only in english. The fact is they are used to translated games.

 

I'm from Spain, and also know Italy. In those countries, we are not used to speak and read english. Besides, the piracy is higher than other countries. If the game does not get translated, it will ve purchased only by a small rpg-fan niche.

 

I guess a company as Obsidian can afford the translation costs. We don't really ask for voice over translations, just text. If project leaders think it's not proffitable to make a translation, please provide us the necessary tools to fans make the localisations.

 

A note about the spanish translation, in case Obsidian wish to make it. It's not the same the spanish from Spain (castillian or es-es) than spanish from America (neutral/international spanish or es-la). Keep it in mind.

[metiman]

There is an easy solution to the voice acting problem. Get rid of it. It's scary how selfish many of you are. You don't care at all about other people. You just want the best possible game for yourself and everyone else in the world can go to hell. So you are chaotic evil then?

 

As a chaotic good person in real life I would like to see as many people in the world enjoy this game, and I would like to see the game get as much funding as possible. Making translations at least for French, Spanish, German and maybe Polish or Russian will almost certainly increase the funding for the game significantly. That's why a commitment has to be made for it before kickstarter is over. At least the French and Spanish text translations should be trivial.

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

The player house was promised as a stretch goal. Some backers have given money for this feature. Removing or replacing it would stink of false advertisement. I am sure Obsidian will never fulfill such request.

 

Asking for localization as future stretch goal is another thing.

[gaqzi]

Using an example. Obsidian is (hypothetically) a german company. It starts the 'Projekt Ewigkeit' (sorry german people for the translation) with the same scope and goals as is. The USA gamers will say the same 'please add more features, localisations is not important'?

I think you are missing one thing, if it was on a German site most of us probably never would've found out about it.

 

And to re-iterate my stance, I'm for translations/localisations when money isn't an issue.

Maybe gauge interest when it has been released and do it then?

[Donau]

The problem is you need someone truly fluent in more than one language just to proofread the translations, let alone make them. They have to have a real 'feel' for the language that you can really only get from living in a counry where it is spoken for some years. It can be difficult to find someone like that. For Spanish it's pretty easy here in the US. In Florida and California you've got people habitually starting sentences in English and finishing them in Spanish. Something I always find funny and interesting, although I've talked to some native Spanish speakers who find it annoying. IIRC, when I lived in Montreal I noticed nearly the same thing for French (although perhaps not quite so frequently), which was even more amusing. Miami and Montreal are both superb locations to find truly excellent translators for those languages. To make matters worse you always get people who think they are fluent in their second language but really are not.

 

Nevertheless, for a text heavy game like this, translations seem like a must. So which langauges?

Countries with at least some international cRPG development: France, Poland, and Germany come to mind. The idea behind this is quid pro quo.

 

Countries with lots of native speakers: Spanish, Russian, and maybe Japanese and Chinese. I hesitate with Japanese because they seem so fond of their own jRPGs and with

Chinese because I'm not sure the average Chinese makes enough money to donate a significant amount. Not sure about this though. China changes so fast. Still, Japanese make a lot of money. It would be nice to get into that market and the Chinese market is obviously so gigantic it's almost beyond imagining.

 

I don't think Chinese would be neseccary, alot of Chinese speak english (I think most schools require it), any that would have the luxury of owning a personal computer definetly would. I have heard that more Chinese read and write English than in Mandarin characters, having been there I dunno if thats true but there was a lot of English signs, more Chinese probably read in the romanincized pin yin text than characters though.

 

English is enough of the global market share for any company, at its peak the British Empire comprised 66% of the world, you can damn well bet that every current commonwealth and most former commonwealths have a large english speaking population.

[slopesandsam]

I have never bought or used a house inside of an RPG. I always wondered what people who did did in there? Do they just sit quietly and enjoy their house by staring at one of the walls? Is there a computer in their house where they can explore a virtual world?

[Raedwulf]

I have never bought or used a house inside of an RPG. I always wondered what people who did did in there? Do they just sit quietly and enjoy their house by staring at one of the walls? Is there a computer in their house where they can explore a virtual world?

 

Well, if you get a house with quests attached, like in Baldurs Gate II the bard's theatre, the wizard's sphere, it can be quite fun.

 

But if you just get a house for which you buy some furniture and where you may store some equipment (which you'll never use), then my experience with Skyrim comes to my mind. My nord warrior bought a house but used it solely to store items, he never used, to brew drugs and... to kill his wife and his housecarl silently after catching witbane disease. Well you may classify this as extreme roleplaying or getting bored by the house.

 

Anyway, I would opt for multilingual Project Eternity over getting a player house. But that's just my humble opinion.