Bomb and shooting in Norway

[Gromnir]

*groan*

 

clear missing the point. Gromnir is dismissive o' the norwegian child killer. what has he done to deserve attention and consideration? is it his published works? does he have significant life experience that makes him noteworthy? the only reason you give a darn about this clown is 'cause you agree with his pov, and 'cause he killed enough children to gain infamy. do not misunderstand; is not breivik who we rails 'gainst in this thread... is you, and those like you. we didn't respond in this thread until you posted. you is giving breivik what he wants. you is legitimizing him. oh sure, you does the social acceptable thing by noting that breivik's actions is wrong, but you suggest that his words is worth consideration and that his existence is the result o' societal forces...

 

"Berivik (if that's the way his name is spelled) is the result of multiculturalist dogma that doesn't allow an inch for the expression of other ideas and concerns and ignores the fact that there are many people who do not agree with it."

 

you defend the guy's intelligence and character in spite o' considerable evidence to the contrary. self-employed and educated? HA!

 

breivik is nobody. one guy. one loser. he is an aberration. after all, how frequent does we see such behavior? not even one-in-a-million. heck, limit yourself to all the jackboot wearing racists you can find and you still not gonna get one-in-million to go on a ridiculously misguided killing spree. nope. breivik needs no response... but folks like you is common. 78 people died in a plane crash in morocco yesterday. 32 people died in a land slide in south korea this morning. am wondering how many people died in seemingly unnecessary fighting in sub-saharan africa on the same day as the events in norway. nevertheless, breivik has captured your attention and you actual sympathize with his pov. tragic.

 

btw, if stuff like columbine were actual representative of societal ills, you would see'em more frequent, no?

 

perhaps you thinks multiculturalism in europe is bad. we disagree. perhaps you thinks that govt. censorship o' unpopular points of view is bad. we agree. nevertheless, to point to breivik as anything other than a pathetic and cowardly killer o' children is a mistake. his only accomplishment is mayhem, but you wanna make'em a poster child for the disenfranchised preppy wannabee element... or some-such.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps comparison to columbine is probable more appropriate than you suspect. do a search... were not a man doing the shooting.

 

 

 

I dismiss these news as a rule, like you'd dismiss any statistically present crime - what piqued my interest was his pov.

 

 

 

 

yeah? you is repeating what we said for a reason? we were criticizing you precisely 'cause you agreed with the killer's pov. and yes, you legitimized, apologized and defended. we can post your statements again so that we can see how you thinks that the noweigan killer is well-educated, courageous, and a contributing member o' society. HA!

 

as has already been noted, in a free society you cannot hope to complete stop a loser who wants to create mayhem. the fact that these incidents happen in the west is hardly surprising. you brought up columbine, but did you check up on what happened? how 'bout some other American school tragedies. bath school were 1927 and 35+ were killed. university o' texas were 1966 and 13 were left dead... many wounded. 2007 saw the virginia tech incident and 35 dead. columbine were 12 dead in 1999. now be so kind as to draw a connection to common societal factors. how 'bout the unabomber? his manifesto also had a great deal of "we" and "our" language in it, but he were just one creepy hermit living in a shack. would be much easier to note that in each case you had depressed and angry males with access to firearms and explosives. you wanna hypothesize and guess 'bout the future without considering similar events in the past? be our guest.

 

so, this joker has got a highly plagiarized and pathetic manifesto, and you is moved by his plight and pov? great. is 'cause you share the pov, no? lord knows we ain't gonna let you drag us into a multiculturalism debate. the only aspect we found intriguing 'bout your posts were the defense o' breivik and your seeming belief that breivik were a harbinger o' things to come.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Humodour]

Uhg, Boo, why is it you're always siding with racism and intolerance when these sorts of threads pop up?

[Drowsy Emperor]

*groan*

 

clear missing the point. Gromnir is dismissive o' the norwegian child killer. what has he done to deserve attention and consideration? is it his published works? does he have significant life experience that makes him noteworthy? the only reason you give a darn about this clown is 'cause you agree with his pov, and 'cause he killed enough children to gain infamy. do not misunderstand; is not breivik who we rails 'gainst in this thread... is you, and those like you. we didn't respond in this thread until you posted. you is giving breivik what he wants. you is legitimizing him. oh sure, you does the social acceptable thing by noting that breivik's actions is wrong, but you suggest that his words is worth consideration and that his existence is the result o' societal forces...

 

"Berivik (if that's the way his name is spelled) is the result of multiculturalist dogma that doesn't allow an inch for the expression of other ideas and concerns and ignores the fact that there are many people who do not agree with it."

 

you defend the guy's intelligence and character in spite o' considerable evidence to the contrary. self-employed and educated? HA!

 

breivik is nobody. one guy. one loser. he is an aberration. after all, how frequent does we see such behavior? not even one-in-a-million. heck, limit yourself to all the jackboot wearing racists you can find and you still not gonna get one-in-million to go on a ridiculously misguided killing spree. nope. breivik needs no response... but folks like you is common. 78 people died in a plane crash in morocco yesterday. 32 people died in a land slide in south korea this morning. am wondering how many people died in seemingly unnecessary fighting in sub-saharan africa on the same day as the events in norway. nevertheless, breivik has captured your attention and you actual sympathize with his pov. tragic.

 

btw, if stuff like columbine were actual representative of societal ills, you would see'em more frequent, no?

 

perhaps you thinks multiculturalism in europe is bad. we disagree. perhaps you thinks that govt. censorship o' unpopular points of view is bad. we agree. nevertheless, to point to breivik as anything other than a pathetic and cowardly killer o' children is a mistake. his only accomplishment is mayhem, but you wanna make'em a poster child for the disenfranchised preppy wannabee element... or some-such.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps comparison to columbine is probable more appropriate than you suspect. do a search... were not a man doing the shooting.

 

 

 

I dismiss these news as a rule, like you'd dismiss any statistically present crime - what piqued my interest was his pov.

 

 

 

 

yeah? you is repeating what we said for a reason? we were criticizing you precisely 'cause you agreed with the killer's pov. and yes, you legitimized, apologized and defended. we can post your statements again so that we can see how you thinks that the noweigan killer is well-educated, courageous, and a contributing member o' society. HA!

 

...

 

so, this joker has got a highly plagiarized and pathetic manifesto, and you is moved by his plight and pov? great. is 'cause you share the pov, no? lord knows we ain't gonna let you drag us into a multiculturalism debate. the only aspect we found intriguing 'bout your posts were the defense o' breivik and your seeming belief that breivik were a harbinger o' things to come.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

His pov does not necessarily equate to his actions. Except in his mind. I think he's educated, if he indeed read all he claims he had. The rest of what you say is nonsense, Breivik certainly ain't no model citizen or even a principled revolutionary - his choice of targets is too morally unjustifiable.

 

I'm certainly not about to go and slaughter 80 children on account of my pov no matter how many common points there are.

 

The methods matter. I'm for altering public perception through education.

 

Breivik could be a harbinger of things to come. He certainly thinks he is. I'm not conclusive on the issue. Ideological trends shift rapidly and there are cycles of previously "outmoded" ideas returning. Instead of terrorism I predict a shift in EU legislature on immigration - a tightening up, if Merkels views are (behind closed doors) shared by her colleagues.

[Malcador]

He was ? Didn't seem like that to me, but ah well.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Uhg, Boo, why is it you're always siding with racism and intolerance when these sorts of threads pop up?

 

Maybe because you're operating in terms that have no meaning to me? Racism isn't even an issue! Everyone in the balkans is of the "white race" whatever that means. Race is no deeper than skin color, but religion goes much farther than that and is more far reaching.

Religion = world view. Finding someone's world view unacceptable is perfectly natural - you do it all the time. Everyone does. These things are not necessarily compatible.

 

Multiculturalism and tolerance are maybe necessary in a society composed of many nationalities - its an american compromise made for americans, maybe australians also.

 

I live in a small compact country, with clear historical alliances and enmities. Nothing has really changed in that regard in a very long time. Nothing will change in a long time either. What am I going to do with you multiculturalism and tolerance? Countries as large as the US can allow themselves social experiments of all sorts, their integrity is not in question - and they have a lot of time and resources to play around.

 

Mine is however neither large nor particularly stable and the current ideology is disintegrating it further. My cause is a lot more urgent and does not leave space for legislative and societal games, imported ideologies and eccentric fascinations with nonsensical topics like: "gay rights", "feminism", "animal rights". US/EU and their local government is imposing these issues on us, which is why I want these things to change there - because that's the only way to shift things here, at the moment.

 

Its a very sad state of affairs, though.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[kirottu]

I think he's educated, if he indeed read all he claims he had.

 

[Morgoth]

Religion and Nationalism is why we can't have nice things on this planet.

[Rosbjerg]

Problem is Boo, your people have voted and they've chosen multiculturalism - wanna change it? Go into politics and start doing something instead of moaning - that's what they did (and a good thing there are some moderates in control now, seeing as your country has quite the history with extremes). And how the hell is liberal = marxism? Liberals are, strangely enough, liberal. Marxism is very opposed to the idea of free market and capitalism, which liberals are very much for.

 

Breivik was a rightwing extreme, but the left has equally dangerous extremes - I'm much more worried that these two sides are gonna start shooting at each other than more of this happening to be honest.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Problem is Boo, your people have voted and they've chosen multiculturalism - wanna change it? Go into politics and start doing something instead of moaning - that's what they did (and a good thing there are some moderates in control now, seeing as your country has quite the history with extremes). And how the hell is liberal = marxism? Liberals are, strangely enough, liberal. Marxism is very opposed to the idea of free market and capitalism, which liberals are very much for.

 

Breivik was a rightwing extreme, but the left has equally dangerous extremes - I'm much more worried that these two sides are gonna start shooting at each other than more of this happening to be honest.

 

You have to realize that they didn't choose squat. The democratic revolution was the beginng of effective US/EU (mostly German to be honest) control over internal policy. The government of the day is that in name only. It has however managed to eradicate all opposing views from the media and poltiical life even if it did take them a decade to do it. The political scene is closed for new players who don't follow the tune set for them.

 

I don't say this as blame shifting but as an expression of fact.

 

But there is something much worse, which is disastrous demographics. Like most EU countries we have a rapidly aging society

which leads to political passivity. Serious shiftings in policy are unlikely no matter what happens.

 

I think you're talking about that cultural marxism. Its a term for a branch of societal studies formerly dominated by marxist theoreticians whose views (without the marxist lingo) have been incoporated into today's ideology of multiculturalism.

Conservatives still call them marxist arousing unnecessary confusion only because they adhere to the class ideology in their writings. Only the new disenfranchised classes are not disciminated economically like the proleteriat but culturally: gays, women, religious minorities etc.

Its a bizzare concoction of ideas and if I didn't have it as a subject at uni (Cultural studies) I would never have believed it.

 

However - its true, the currently dominant "liberal" mc ideology has marxist theoretical roots.

[Junai]

Want to place bets that it has more to do with family history than society and politics?

 

That.

 

The latest interviews with his childhood-friends seem to indicate that he was a bit of a loner.

Distant parents, a father he hadn't seen since the nineties. Bragging about girlfriends noone ever saw etc.

Steroids, plastic surgery.

Alone all the way, makes it harder and harder to get back to society. And eventually he ends up living in a

bubble where he starts hatching his plans of death and destruction.

 

Tragic, and impossible to detect unless you're a relative or close friend.

 

 

J.

[Nepenthe]

Uhg, Boo, why is it you're always siding with racism and intolerance when these sorts of threads pop up?

'coz he's a fascist. In the classical sense, not in the "who are the fascists now, says the German tourist when he has to get bodyscanned at an U.S. airport" sense.

[Rostere]

White, unemployed, no substantial education. Typical right-wing extremist.

 

Incorrect.

I?ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were

spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working

full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally

cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500

Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable

compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual

marketing operation

 

Self employed upper middle class and extremely educated.

 

Don't be silly.

[Meshugger]

Compared to other killers, this guy is interesting since:

 

1) He wasn't suicidal, yet he wanted to get caught (lite martyr-complex?)

2) You have to have a tremendous rage to go on a rampage and kill 80 people, but he still had enough self-control to spare an 11 year old when the kid pleaded for mercy

3) Allegedly socially conservative, but still not against homosexuality and other generally "conservative" issues

4) Finally, his target was strangely refined. It wasn't the muslims in general, or even imams and similar people in power. It was instead the youth section of a party that he blamed for destroying the norwegian culture.

 

 

/me scratches head...

[Drowsy Emperor]

Compared to other killers, this guy is interesting since:

 

1) He wasn't suicidal, yet he wanted to get caught (lite martyr-complex?)

2) You have to have a tremendous rage to go on a rampage and kill 80 people, but he still had enough self-control to spare an 11 year old when the kid pleaded for mercy

3) Allegedly socially conservative, but still not against homosexuality and other generally "conservative" issues

4) Finally, his target was strangely refined. It wasn't the muslims in general, or even imams and similar people in power. It was instead the youth section of a party that he blamed for destroying the norwegian culture.

 

 

/me scratches head...

 

That was my point all along. There are nutjobs and nutjobs but this one is nowhere near as nutty as the rest.

 

From what I gather he blames the local powers that be for the Islamic "problem" and not muslim themselves. Which is pretty logical -EU immigration is after all not a policy made in Pakistan.

 

You know, life is strange. Mandela and his ANC set god knows how many bombs and killed god knows how many people and today he's celebrated as a paragon of democracy - and Breivik is a monster. Yet they're the exact same the end-justifies-the-means terrorist fanatic mentality, with not a single difference between them.

 

You pick a cause, you pick your enemy and when the heads start to roll the only thing that decides who you are is whose civillians are getting killed. If they're "our enemy" like the aparheid boers, fine - just rack up a body count. You'll still be a hero in the end.

And no I'm not talking out of my ass on Mandela, I lived in those parts and talked to a lot of south africans. His deeds are well known, yet the west chose to look the other way.

 

The exact same applies to the Chechen terrorists. They killed a school full of (primary school?) kids yet they were still labelled as "freedom fighters". Where's the horror and dismay for the russian kids? A bit lacking no?

 

Breivik was labeled as a christian fundamentalist before anything about him was known. You'd have to positively hate anything to do with christianity to make a casual and unfounded statement like that, based on nothing more than his FB profile.

The man clearly says that religion is important to him but that its not the reason and cause for his actions. Yet the accusations persist. He's also compared to far right nazi types, yet he repeatedly glorifies Israel and Jews while being critical of skinheads and neonazis.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

You know, life is strange. Mandela and his ANC set god knows how many bombs and killed god knows how many people and today he's celebrated as a paragon of democracy - and Breivik is a monster. Yet they're the exact same the end-justifies-the-means terrorist fanatic mentality, with not a single difference between them.

 

I don't want to stamp all over your point old man, but I know what life was like under Apartheid. It wasn't like that in Europe last time I checked.

 

Nope. I just checked again. I have full franchise rights and employment possibilities. Plus a cracking stack of booze and porn. No Islamofascist nightmare just yet.

[Nepenthe]

The exact same applies to the Chechen terrorists. They killed a school full of (primary school?) kids yet they were still labelled as "freedom fighters". Where's the horror and dismay for the russian kids? A bit lacking no?

Never heard anyone refer to school or movie theatre bombers as anything else than terrorists. Maybe you should look for hypocrisy a bit close than that?

[Drowsy Emperor]

You know, life is strange. Mandela and his ANC set god knows how many bombs and killed god knows how many people and today he's celebrated as a paragon of democracy - and Breivik is a monster. Yet they're the exact same the end-justifies-the-means terrorist fanatic mentality, with not a single difference between them.

 

I don't want to stamp all over your point old man, but I know what life was like under Apartheid. It wasn't like that in Europe last time I checked.

 

Nope. I just checked again. I have full franchise rights and employment possibilities. Plus a cracking stack of booze and porn. No Islamofascist nightmare just yet.

 

Never said it was, I'm just comparing character traits between those type of people. The "justness" of their "cause" is irrelevant.

 

@Nepenthe: don't be silly. Everyone knows the Chechens enjoyed covert political, financial and military support from the west in various degrees, until it became unprofitable to support them.

Paying lip service to the victims on one side and supporting the killers on the other does not make the situation magically okay.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[pmp10]

Compared to other killers, this guy is interesting since:

1) He wasn't suicidal, yet he wanted to get caught (lite martyr-complex?)

2) You have to have a tremendous rage to go on a rampage and kill 80 people, but he still had enough self-control to spare an 11 year old when the kid pleaded for mercy

3) Allegedly socially conservative, but still not against homosexuality and other generally "conservative" issues

4) Finally, his target was strangely refined. It wasn't the muslims in general, or even imams and similar people in power. It was instead the youth section of a party that he blamed for destroying the norwegian culture.

 

/me scratches head...

Has anyone even considered that he may simply be an attention seeker?

It's easy to pick up any cause to kill for if all you really care about is getting famous.

[Nepenthe]

@Nepenthe: don't be silly. Everyone knows the Chechens enjoyed covert political, financial and military support from the west in various degrees, until it became unprofitable to support them.

Paying lip service to the victims on one side and supporting the killers on the other does not make the situation magically okay.

Ah, the famous "everyone knows!" argument. I hope it doesn't float at wherever you are studying.

[Drowsy Emperor]

@Nepenthe: don't be silly. Everyone knows the Chechens enjoyed covert political, financial and military support from the west in various degrees, until it became unprofitable to support them.

Paying lip service to the victims on one side and supporting the killers on the other does not make the situation magically okay.

Ah, the famous "everyone knows!" argument. I hope it doesn't float at wherever you are studying.

 

Oh please. Continue to plead ignorance at every inconvenient opportunity. Make my day.

[Nightshape]

You know, life is strange. Mandela and his ANC set god knows how many bombs and killed god knows how many people and today he's celebrated as a paragon of democracy - and Breivik is a monster. Yet they're the exact same the end-justifies-the-means terrorist fanatic mentality, with not a single difference between them.

 

I don't want to stamp all over your point old man, but I know what life was like under Apartheid. It wasn't like that in Europe last time I checked.

 

Nope. I just checked again. I have full franchise rights and employment possibilities. Plus a cracking stack of booze and porn. No Islamofascist nightmare just yet.

 

Have you ever been to Bradford... ?

[Nepenthe]

@Nepenthe: don't be silly. Everyone knows the Chechens enjoyed covert political, financial and military support from the west in various degrees, until it became unprofitable to support them.

Paying lip service to the victims on one side and supporting the killers on the other does not make the situation magically okay.

Ah, the famous "everyone knows!" argument. I hope it doesn't float at wherever you are studying.

 

Oh please. Continue to plead ignorance at every inconvenient opportunity. Make my day.

Better ignorance than wanton misrepresentation.

[Nightshape]

@Nepenthe: don't be silly. Everyone knows the Chechens enjoyed covert political, financial and military support from the west in various degrees, until it became unprofitable to support them.

Paying lip service to the victims on one side and supporting the killers on the other does not make the situation magically okay.

Ah, the famous "everyone knows!" argument. I hope it doesn't float at wherever you are studying.

 

Oh please. Continue to plead ignorance at every inconvenient opportunity. Make my day.

Better ignorance than wanton misrepresentation.

 

Why not just claim apathy and be done with it.

[Drowsy Emperor]

@Nepenthe: don't be silly. Everyone knows the Chechens enjoyed covert political, financial and military support from the west in various degrees, until it became unprofitable to support them.

Paying lip service to the victims on one side and supporting the killers on the other does not make the situation magically okay.

Ah, the famous "everyone knows!" argument. I hope it doesn't float at wherever you are studying.

 

Oh please. Continue to plead ignorance at every inconvenient opportunity. Make my day.

Better ignorance than wanton misrepresentation.

 

It is not. End of story.

 

Details of the chechen conflicts and western involvement are neither particularly secret nor unknown. Modern states in general have a history of supporting terror groups to further their interests while justifying or misrepresenting them at home. US and the former USSR in particular.

The only difference between the people who make up those groups and Berivik is that he went solo and had no state support.

 

States condemn men like him for one simple reason (that has nothing to do with morality): they can't control him and he makes them look bad, inept.

 

Their licensed terrorists, a whole jolly bus full of Beriviks however, may kill as many children as necessary. Just as long as they don't talk about it too much because of all the bad PR.

 

Everything is hypocrisy. Your - is your self image of being the "right" side where in fact there is none.

 

That is why I have zero respect for people like you who give themselves some sort of special status. You can - everyone else can't. You are right and everyone else is wrong. Your hands are never dirty no matter what you do. What a joke.

 

And then when **** like this happens you go: how could this happen in our peace loving little country - never questioning the humorous notion of how a country that's a part of NATO - which has led so many wars could be considered peaceful by anyone of right mind. Beriviks killings are a monstorus tragedy, civillian casualties due to NATO attacks - collateral damage.

 

Please.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Nepenthe]

Now you are putting words in my mouth and attitudes in my head - but that is nothing new, it is something you do on a macro scale in most of your other posts, as well.

 

In fact, claiming that there is a "right side" in conflicts is pretty much the antithesis to my opinions on most matters. I point to the quote Wals has in his sig.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Nepenthe