Piracy

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Everyone flips out when I say this, but Steam is possibly one of the better drm scheme currently active...

 

No, it really isn't.

[Hurlshort]

Maybe I should try a different tact, since the 'don't pirate because it is wrong' argument isn't getting through.

 

Don't pirate because you will regret it some day. On this board are a lot of older gamers, and most of us probably partook in the ways of piracy when we were younger. But eventually you will get older, and your conscience will get the better of you. You will realize that it wasn't worth compromising your morals for a bunch of video games.

 

I realize we are talking hypothetically here and no one pirates on this forum, but that is the message I would like to see spread about piracy.

[sorophx]

Not a big deal to whom?

not a big deal on the grander scale of things, obviously piracy isn't as big a thing in the sense that not a lot of people do it. even in Russia, for example, most people don't even play PC games. and the ones that do buy them in stores. and only a small fraction downloads games from torrents on a regular basis. you want numbers?

 

on the biggest russian torrent tracker site (8000000 users, close to 1000000 active torrents) there's only ~22000 games.

"and we're back to "every download is a lost sale". it isn't"

I didn't claim that

what you said implies that. it's not even "borrowing", like Gorth suggests. it's making a copy of a copy. there's a world of difference. now, don't start telling me that it's the same as stealing, I've read every post in this thread and I get your point. you just don't get mine. that's ok

If you are living in suchn tough places, you have muych bigger worries then whether or not you are able to play video games.

it's exactly why they pirate games. because they live in a "tough place", and sometimes games are the only way they can have some fun for a change.

I cna't afford to upgrade my PC every couple of years either. Your point?

^my point exactly

One shopuld be rewarded for their work.

appreciation of one's work is a reward enough, since he got payed long before the game was shipped. it's true that taking something for free instead of paying for it could be considered a theft if his income was directly tied to the number of copies sold. which it's usually not 'til a solid chunk of games is sold and royalties kick in. of course I'm oversimplifying stuff. but neither his work nor his income are directly affected by piracy

[Thorton_AP]

"Only" 22,000 games? What do you mean by "22,000 games?"

 

but neither his work nor his income are directly affected by piracy

 

Nah, just his continued employment, salary growth, and other such stuff like that.

 

What you just said here demonstrates you don't actually know how economies work. Companies that fail to make sufficient profits are unable to improve the wages of their employees, or worse yet, maintain their employment regardless.

 

This goes for every business.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Humodour]

Maybe I should try a different tact, since the 'don't pirate because it is wrong' argument isn't getting through.

 

Don't pirate because you will regret it some day. On this board are a lot of older gamers, and most of us probably partook in the ways of piracy when we were younger. But eventually you will get older, and your conscience will get the better of you. You will realize that it wasn't worth compromising your morals for a bunch of video games.

 

I realize we are talking hypothetically here and no one pirates on this forum, but that is the message I would like to see spread about piracy.

 

That's a lame attempt to stop people from making illegal copies.

 

The better argument is that it often hurts the people who are genuinely innocent: the artists. The publishers are far from innocent, but let's leave that for another thread.

 

The best way to prevent illegal copying is to change business models (and that doesn't mean suing your way to success). Steam and GOG and similar have done this for games, iTunes and Amazon and similar for music although for music artists don't usually rely on album profits but merchandising and concert sales, and I hear Hulu and Netflix are decent for movies.

 

Somebody can rant about people downloading illegally all day, and call them 'stupid' or 'evil' or you want, but it's a silly thing to do and a waste of time and anger. If you want to change it - stop it - you need to look to new business models that make it less desirable to copy things. Or you'll spend your days ranting while nothing changes.

 

Steam is the most potent force I can think of for preventing game copying. And they've achieved this not through abusing or criminalising customers and potential customers, but by tapping into that market of people who previously were too lazy or poor to purchases your products (whether they are downloaders or not) - and THAT is a question of marketing.

[sorophx]

"Only" 22,000 games? What do you mean by "22,000 games?"

I mean that there atr 22000 threads dedicated to game releases. each thread contains a download link.

 

there's approximately 200000-300000 different films for download on this same site. compared to that, 22000 threads, dedicated to games (most of them - old stuff like Diablo 2) is a raindrop in an ocean.

Companies that fail to make sufficient profits are unable to improve the wages of their employees, or worse yet, maintain their employment regardless.

I do realize that. I just think that it's different for the music and game industries, when it comes to piracy. because piracy doesn't affect profits *that much*

 

EDIT:

Steam is the most potent force I can think of for preventing game copying. And they've achieved this not through abusing or criminalising customers and potential customers, but by tapping into that market of people who previously were too lazy or poor to purchases your products

this is very true. at least in Russia it's noticeable.

Edited November 29, 2010 by sorophx

[Orchomene]

Piracy is theft only if you accept the concept of intellectual property. This concept is not universal and too specific to western culture. To my knowledge, there is no intellectual property in China.

About producers, in science, editors take all the intellectual property rights of an article when accepted by a journal. Thus, illegal copies are found everywhere in science laboratories and no scientist cares about having someone copy an article instead of buying it. It's of course a limit in the publication system since scientists put their own articles on their sites wth some changes in presentation (as it is, the property is valid only with the formatting of the publisher and changing it before puting it on a url is legal).

 

I don't dowload pirated games not because it's immoral (I don't consider intellectual property as a valid concept, it's a property put on immaterial product), I don't do it because I consider the developers and publishers should receive funds to go on developing.

Would someone put a game freely on a website with a possibility of getting money by subscription or any other mean, I would give money if I download the game to encourage such practice and to allow the one that does that to earn money with their work.

[Humodour]

The current Western conception of intellectual property is a farce and makes a mockery of itself by encompassing too much and for too long a time period - the notion that copyrights or patents can extend for a period longer than 10 years is infuriating.

[Humanoid]

If I wasn't able to borrow that tatty old box of a game with laughable cartoony graphics from my local video store 15+ years ago, who knows where I'd be now. That game was Heroes of Might and Magic.

 

Wonder if Steam rentals as a sort of try before you buy mechanism could work. Pay a few dollars for 24 hours access say, then after that have the option of buying outright with the 'rental' fee offset against the full price.

 

 

Back to wondering again about the relative (negative) economic values of these various channels compared against each other.

- Piracy

- Second-hand sales

- Rentals

- Borrowing/swapping between friends

- Grey-market imports

 

 

To illustrate:

 

While I'm not sure how much shelf price has much of an impact on the cut the developers receive, take for example the currently popular route of Australians importing games from the UK. For the industry as a whole (retailer, distributor, publisher, developer), it would be a greater financial loss if an Aussie imports a game from the UK for $40 against a local price of $100, than it is for a Brit to outright pirate a game (that same equivalent of $40 vs zero). The first instance causes up to a $60 net loss spread across the whole chain, the latter would be a $40 net loss given the most optimistic scenario of "1 torrent = 1 lost sale."

 

Now it's ameliorated somewhat due to the majority of the loss being incurred by the widely despised retail end of the chain, but they are a valid part of the electronic gaming industry.

[Gorth]

it would be a greater financial loss if an Aussie imports a game from the UK for $40 against a local price of $100

Your post raises a different question... why the heck a game in two similar countries can be charged $40 and $100 respectively. It stinks of price fixing and the attempts to prevent parallel imports only reinforces the assault on the olfactory nerves. Same thing applies to the movie industry and their region encoding scheme.

[sorophx]

why the heck a game in two similar countries can be charged $40 and $100 respectively.

the power of the free market as the suits say, "let the market regulate itself"

[Gorth]

why the heck a game in two similar countries can be charged $40 and $100 respectively.

the power of the free market as the suits say, "let the market regulate itself"

Actually, it's the exact opposite of the free market (which is what I have a problem with)

[Humanoid]

It's even more hilarious considering the mad wailing of certain local business identities (such as Gerry Harvey) blaming the non-imposition of the 10% GST onto imports under $1000AUD in value. Yeah, because clearly making punters pay $44 instead of $40 against the local price of $100 is going to save local retailers. On the other hand it might reduce unemployment to zero given the extreme recruiting customs will need to do to process the huge number of parcels.

 

 

Latest purchase: I've imported a set of Rock Band 3 drums as a Christmas present for a family member. Paid $130USD + $30 shipping. Local price? $288.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Humanoid

[Humodour]

Yeah, I've found myself importing a lot of stuff lately because it's often half the price of the equivalent item in Australia. I kind of feel bad for not supporting the local economy.

 

And on the topic of Steam, my 118 games totalling $973.10 works out at roughly $8.25 per game. And this is why Steam stops illegal downloading. Or perhaps a better statement would be "this is why the free market stops illegal downloading". Not to mention my games are auto-updated and stored in the cloud.

[mkreku]

Since I hate the $=

[Malcador]

Still though, no one gets the point of piracy being huge in some places due to the legit market not even trying to be appealing, hm.

The stupidity in this thread is staggering. I blame my lack of a Ferrari on the legit market not accomodating me.

 

Well, it makes it even more tempting if you have a game priced arbirtrarily higher than other places. The legit market might as well not try to compete there, when you can go to a local store or hop on Usenet and get it.

 

Don't pirate because you will regret it some day. On this board are a lot of older gamers, and most of us probably partook in the ways of piracy when we were younger. But eventually you will get older, and your conscience will get the better of you. You will realize that it wasn't worth compromising your morals for a bunch of video games.

 

Hm, nope, not regretting it these days. Was a good way to save cash and have fun back at Uni labs, heh. Besides, you'd think Ubisoft would have suffered from it.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Malcador

[Hurlshort]

Don't pirate because you will regret it some day. On this board are a lot of older gamers, and most of us probably partook in the ways of piracy when we were younger. But eventually you will get older, and your conscience will get the better of you. You will realize that it wasn't worth compromising your morals for a bunch of video games.

 

Hm, nope, not regretting it these days. Was a good way to save cash and have fun back at Uni labs, heh. Besides, you'd think Ubisoft would have suffered from it.

 

That's because you are still young. My guess is between 24-26.

[Malcador]

No, that's not it really, most likely lack of concern for the tiny impact it had (and gratitude for stress relief at no cost!) Doubt simply aging is going to change my opinion on the matter

[Hurlshort]

No, that's not it really, most likely lack of concern for the tiny impact it had (and gratitude for stress relief at no cost!) Doubt simply aging is going to change my opinion on the matter

 

Is there a reason you don't want to share your age?

[Malcador]

Because it's irrelevant ? If you think it is, I'd like to hear the reasoning

[Hurlshort]

Because it's irrelevant ? If you think it is, I'd like to hear the reasoning

 

I already explained why age is important earlier. I'm going to assume by your reluctance to share your age that I hit the nail on the head, although I'm now thinking you are closer to 23.

[Malcador]

You believe age matters in this anyway. You might stop pirating as you get older (variety of reasons - e.g. play less, decide to be a consumer or just not being with 'it' anymore), but as for regretting past piracy ? Eh, hardly. You'll regret doing things that were a negative impact on people you know or you, not regretting depriving Ubisoft or EA of your $60.

 

As for my 'reluctance' to tell you of all people my age, well, you're welcome to assume anything you like.

[Volourn]

"The fact of the matter is, Piracy will happen"

 

The fact of the matter is, murder will happen.. so we shouldn't do anything to try to stop it. Don't you see how silly thata rgument is?

 

Stealing is wrong, and piracy is theft. This is simple fact. To say otherwise is an attempt to spin things to easy one's concious in order to make stealing games morally acceptable when it is not.

 

P.S. Saying publishing books is different than publishing games 9don't remmeber who said that) is silly. It's pretty much the same thing. IOn both publishers' cases they put a lot of money and effort to sell soemthing to a lot of people. They should be compensated for it espicially since as Di mentioned, she wouldn't be able to reach such a huge audience without their help. Both sides benefits.

 

One could make ana rgument that the publisher-artist relationship is too unbalanced in favor of the publisher but that's between the publisher and artist not the thieves.

[sorophx]

haha, oh, good old Volo comparing piracy to murder, you work for the RIAA most definitely.

[Hurlshort]

You believe age matters in this anyway. You might stop pirating as you get older (variety of reasons - e.g. play less, decide to be a consumer or just not being with 'it' anymore), but as for regretting past piracy ? Eh, hardly. You'll regret doing things that were a negative impact on people you know or you, not regretting depriving Ubisoft or EA of your $60.

 

As for my 'reluctance' to tell you of all people my age, well, you're welcome to assume anything you like.

 

Given your youth, it's pretty hard for you to be certain about that, isn't it.

 

But don't let things like actual experience get in the way of your certainty.