New copyright enforcement bill on its way

[Nepenthe]

That is a fairly ridiculous argument. It's ok to pirate because the album is difficult to find? Really, that's a major stretch.

 

I'd say that's the only valid reason I can think of. And by 'hard', I mean limited /200, where 187 albums were destroyed in a fire and the remaining ones are owned by an eccentric billionaire.

 

Sometimes, there simply is no legal way to purchase something. (And before the weed-smokers rejoice, that is not really the point here)

 

You misunderstand - it's not pirating something because you are unable to buy it. It's pirating something to see if you like it, because it's not worth throwing $20/album at a band's discography to see if you enjoy their music. Mainstream music gets enough exposure that people can generally know if they like a band or not before buying an album. Underground music does not.

 

Not really, I understand my point was somewhat external to the discussion (as Hulrlshot's seemed to be).

[Gorth]

This is the other side of the coin, piracy is a riskless investment for the consumer that wouldn't have been exposed to it had it not given it a chance. E.G. person that doesn't enjoy a particular genre of music/games hears a lot hype and decides to jump on the wagon. But he doesn't want to spend his money on a investment that will not return so he takes the less risk with piracy and whether they like it or not, they now know.

The problem is with the economic models that force someone to piracy. We have simply gone from burning or doing a tape recording of a friend's album, to having a whole lot of people offering it to you. The problem was already there before it has just now grown.

That has to be the most inane excuse I've heard in a long time. Nobody is forced into pirating anything by anything other than their own greed and lack of morals. Lets cut it out in simple words:

 

You... Don't... Need... It...

 

It's even better, it's single syllable words. To hard to grasp for the mewling filth wallowing around in their own feces on the floor, ranting about evil overlords ripping them off etc. but the truth, as much as it hurts the delusional mind is, there is no music/software/movie/book whatever that anybody *Need*

 

The solution is very simple, do not like, not know well enough, simply leave it where it is. Anything else is hypocrasy, plain and simple. The feeble attempts at justifying it just make people who steal out of convenience look even more pathetic than they already are.

[Purkake]

Meh, my original intent was not about the morality of piracy, rather how interest groups try give themselves extra legal mandate in order to

 

1) control what's on the internet, all in the name of fighting piracy

2) undermine the point of all been equal under the law

 

This whole "hurr-durr it's theft, pay millions of dollars NAO!" is so silly that it isn't even funny. The smart ones in the industry will adapt to the situation and turn it into profit (iTunes, Steam, Spotify, Netflix) and those who don't will fail. End of story.

 

Like radio destroyed the LP, like VHS destroyed movies, like the cassette destroyed the....wait.

I wonder if we ever reach a point where piracy is actually all but eliminated. Then we can look back and think if it was really worth it.

[Zoraptor]

Copyright is NOT property rights.

 

****, I would've thought the more Libertarian-leaning people on this board would be the most astute ones on this matter. Guess not.

Sadly, almost all self proclaimed libertarians are "nobody has the right to tell me what to do (but it's fine telling others to do things I agree with/ already do)".

 

Libertarians respect property rights, it's one of the cornerstones of libertarianism. The copyright / property right argument is also false. You are freely creating something that you would otherwise buy and depriving the creator of the legitimate profit of his or her labour. It's theft, however much semantic loop-the-looping you want to undertake.

No, it isn't. You and the industry can shout about stealing as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. Everyone 'prosecuted' for piracy has been prosecuted for copyright infringement, not theft. It is copyright infringement. End of Story.

 

It's simple, I'd guess that the vast majority of piracy apologists are by and large people who dabble in downloading pirated products. They are simply trying to rationalise / validate their criminality.

 

Now, if you're going to accuse me or others of piracy or being criminals please have the courage to make it explicit and include your evidence for it, as well as a way to contact you under your real name for potential legal redress. After all, if we're talking libertarianism then one of the other tenets is personal responsibility, yes? so, under libertarian ideals I or others should have the right to sue you when you run around making wild accusations, yes? or get you banned for making unfounded accusations, yes? Don't worry though, I at least won't accuse you of stealing my reputation, I'd do you for what it actually is, libel, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for an explicit accusation of course. As with most internet 'libertarians' it's entirely do as I say, not as I do, yes?

 

 

disclaimer: lol internet srs bsnss sue for libel rofl haha in case that wasn't obvious

[Gorth]

No, it isn't. You and the industry can shout about stealing as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. Everyone 'prosecuted' for piracy has been prosecuted for copyright infringement, not theft. It is copyright infringement. End of Story.

Ah yes, another popular excuse by the apologists... not stealing, just violating a bit of copyright. It might be easier to pursue in a court room, but semanthic obfuscation doesn't change the fact that you are stealing. What you are stealing is the depriving other people due payment for the time and labour invested in their work. To bring back my original example of the hairdresser, walking away without paying him is not really stealing either, is it? Try telling the plumber that fixed your broken water pipe that, thanks, but since I now have what I need, why should I pay you for your time, etc. Only the anonymity in stealing digitally distributable stuff makes lions out of whimps. The same whimps indulging in self pity if somebody wants to make it harder for them apparantly.

[Hurlshort]

Does arguing semantics really make it easier to clear your conscience when you copyright infringe someone else's hard work?

 

It is still a crime, can we agree on that?

[Oblarg]

Does arguing semantics really make it easier to clear your conscience when you copyright infringe someone else's hard work?

 

It is still a crime, can we agree on that?

 

Why would it hurt someones conscience if by doing it he's, overall, benefiting the person whose work he's pirating?

Edited September 26, 2010 by Oblarg

[Orogun01]

This is the other side of the coin, piracy is a riskless investment for the consumer that wouldn't have been exposed to it had it not given it a chance. E.G. person that doesn't enjoy a particular genre of music/games hears a lot hype and decides to jump on the wagon. But he doesn't want to spend his money on a investment that will not return so he takes the less risk with piracy and whether they like it or not, they now know.

The problem is with the economic models that force someone to piracy. We have simply gone from burning or doing a tape recording of a friend's album, to having a whole lot of people offering it to you. The problem was already there before it has just now grown.

That has to be the most inane excuse I've heard in a long time. Nobody is forced into pirating anything by anything other than their own greed and lack of morals. Lets cut it out in simple words:

 

You... Don't... Need... It...

 

It's even better, it's single syllable words. To hard to grasp for the mewling filth wallowing around in their own feces on the floor, ranting about evil overlords ripping them off etc. but the truth, as much as it hurts the delusional mind is, there is no music/software/movie/book whatever that anybody *Need*

 

The solution is very simple, do not like, not know well enough, simply leave it where it is. Anything else is hypocrasy, plain and simple. The feeble attempts at justifying it just make people who steal out of convenience look even more pathetic than they already are.

You don't need it but you want to give it a try. There isn't a medium for the promotion of underground music or games that is both legal and convenient, piracy offers them one. Aside from that you are absolutely right they don't need it but it takes way too much money to have all these books, albums, software, games. It sort of when demand exceeds the means to acquire it.

 

These industries have grown to the point where we cannot keep up with them, it's hard to be an avid consumer of any product and buy them indiscriminately. I for one buy games like screening a prospective date, find out everything about it, weight pro's and con's, and hope that all the time I will spend on it will be rewarding. Because I simply don't have the means to afford all these games and wouldn't like to waste money on something that isn't going to please me. Same for books and comics.

Plus if it was going to be pirated, it wasn't going to be bought.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Orogun01

[Zoraptor]

No, it isn't. You and the industry can shout about stealing as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. Everyone 'prosecuted' for piracy has been prosecuted for copyright infringement, not theft. It is copyright infringement. End of Story.

Ah yes, another popular excuse by the apologists... not stealing, just violating a bit of copyright. It might be easier to pursue in a court room, but semanthic obfuscation doesn't change the fact that you are stealing. What you are stealing is the depriving other people due payment for the time and labour invested in their work. To bring back my original example of the hairdresser, walking away without paying him is not really stealing either, is it? Try telling the plumber that fixed your broken water pipe that, thanks, but since I now have what I need, why should I pay you for your time, etc. Only the anonymity in stealing digitally distributable stuff makes lions out of whimps. The same whimps indulging in self pity if somebody wants to make it harder for them apparantly.

I still think it's wrong, and I don't pirate (it'd take me 4 months or USD240 in download cap excess to download an AAA game on my crappy internet even if I wanted to pirate, but in any case I'm happy buying and get my money's worth), but if we're just going to run around calling something with a perfectly good definition something else why not go the whole hog and call it terrorism or drug running or something*?

 

In both the examples you cite it still wouldn't be stealing. Doesn't make it right, doesn't (necessarily) make it acceptable**, but it ain't stealing, except if excess physical components are removed. It's breach of contract***.

 

The primary point is that most people who would support some sort of 'crackdown on piracy' would not support having other bits of 'real world' law applied like having the the government have a database with the ability to match real/ virtual names for purposes of civil defamation suits from random disgruntled online acquaintances. It's too open to abuse**** and frankly I have zero faith in either copyright holders not to abuse any provisions nor any government to apply them fairly or accurately. Potentially you could have sites banned for relatively 'benign' things like linking to abandonware, or suggesting getting a nocd if you're having drm problems, or for being hacked and having torrent information, or for 'advocating' piracy, or for hosting Daemon Tools, or for having advanced burner software, or for having thread trace/ stack reader/ decompiler software [etc].

 

Partly though it's that while I don't like pirates I also don't care much about them either as I do my bit by buying stuff, the only bit I can control. I do care about, and have pretty strongly negative opinions on, RIAA/ MPAA/ BSA etc because they provide no benefit to me, treat me like a criminal and attempt to remove as many basic purchase rights as possible all of which have no impact on those that actually pirated.

 

*the MPAA actually do this, of course. grr MPAA gnash gnash

 

**though there are plenty of ways not paying could be acceptable, of course, none of which are 'allowable' in the digital world. If you ask for a trim and they shave your head or dye your hair green, if the plumber ignores instructions and installs and charges you for a gold plated toilet etc you are perfectly within your rights not to pay.

 

***mileage may vary in different jurisdictions

 

****and potentially avoidable by something as simple as torrent seed lists being posted as jpgs so as to be defined as artworks protected under first amendment, as per the DVD master key.

[Gorth]

The primary point is that most people who would support some sort of 'crackdown on piracy' would not support having other bits of 'real world' law applied like having the the government have a database with the ability to match real/ virtual names for purposes of civil defamation suits from random disgruntled online acquaintances. It's too open to abuse**** and frankly I have zero faith in either copyright holders not to abuse any provisions nor any government to apply them fairly or accurately. Potentially you could have sites banned for relatively 'benign' things like linking to abandonware, or suggesting getting a nocd if you're having drm problems, or for being hacked and having torrent information, or for 'advocating' piracy, or for hosting Daemon Tools, or for having advanced burner software, or for having thread trace/ stack reader/ decompiler software [etc].

Which is pretty much my main concern with the impending doom sabre rattling legislation on the horizon. I just put the blame squarely on shoulders of the "freeloaders", that such legislation is even beeing seriously considered and not shot down in it's infancy. One of the things I was happy to leave behind in the old country was the feeling of big brother always watching over my shoulder, the almost paranoia you get knowing that there are cameras everywhere, every single monetary transaction you do is registered against your cpr-number (a serial number that is unique for all Danes), that you have to prove your innocense to the tax man and not the other way around. Some people have made it all too easy for guys like RIAA etc. to become powerful and it is not the legit users. So yeah, I'm not afraid of putting my foot where my mouth is and practise what I preach, so I haven't bough music for the last 5 years, the dvd's I buy are those that run on my multiregion Sony dvd player and blu-rays?... not until they drop the market control and get rid of the region encoding (or multiregion players become widely available). My point still stands, those guys are offering nothing that anybody truly needs and only because people act like sheep (by wanting what they offer so badly) do they wield the power that they do.

[Monte Carlo]

Zorapter, you acknowledge that I haven't accused you of anything. Usually your posts make sense, but this one doesn't.

[Zoraptor]

The primary point was that most people who would support some sort of crackdown on piracy would not support having other bits of real world law applied like the ability to match real/ virtual names for purposes of civil defamation suits from random disgruntled online acquaintances. That it was frivolous was entirely the point- I don't particularly care about indirect insinuations of supporting piracy but some people will and they would abuse the system. Especially if it had the same "ok, then prove your innocence" provisions most industry sponsored laws have with respect to internet cutoff; you'd have to prove that your comment wasn't implying I pirated.

 

I just put the blame squarely on shoulders of the "freeloaders", that such legislation is even beeing seriously considered and not shot down in it's infancy.

I fundamentally disagree- if it's bad law then the blame is squarely on those who make the law, not those it is aimed at. To make extreme examples, if they were having a law to make it compulsory to have DNA samples and fingerprints taken from everyone, or behavioural correction chips implanted to "fight/ prevent crime" that would be the lawmakers' fault rather than criminals.

[Thorton_AP]

You don't need it but you want to give it a try. There isn't a medium for the promotion of underground music or games that is both legal and convenient, piracy offers them one. Aside from that you are absolutely right they don't need it but it takes way too much money to have all these books, albums, software, games. It sort of when demand exceeds the means to acquire it.

 

Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess. All this is is a rationalization.

 

These industries have grown to the point where we cannot keep up with them, it's hard to be an avid consumer of any product and buy them indiscriminately. I for one buy games like screening a prospective date, find out everything about it, weight pro's and con's, and hope that all the time I will spend on it will be rewarding. Because I simply don't have the means to afford all these games and wouldn't like to waste money on something that isn't going to please me. Same for books and comics.

Plus if it was going to be pirated, it wasn't going to be bought.

 

You rationalize your piracy by saying you wouldn't have bought it otherwise. I wonder how many times you rationalize that the content isn't really worth paying for it after you've already consumed it in its entirety. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing and human beings jump through hoops. Because you can't afford it all just makes me shake my head. You can't pirate it all either. Must be having a crisis over there eh?

 

 

People can argue whether or not it helps or hurts. Few people supply the numbers, and the only ones that are really interested in doing so are the industries themselves. So to let themselves sleep at night people will rationalize that they are overstating it, regurgitate that one act of piracy does not mean one lost sale, etc. etc.

 

Since we're talking about being forced to do things though, here's a fact. Because people such as yourself pirate software, legit paying customers are forced to deal with DRM in order to consume their favorite media. I don't care much for the music aspect of things, but as a through and through gamer you can be sure I'm not at all delighted at the hoops I and other legitimate customers need to jump through in response to people such as yourself being "unsure" if they want to buy it. If you don't think the game is worth the $60 when it comes out, try this: wait until the price goes down.

 

Pirating software is purely selfish. And the selfishness of pirates is compromising the industry because now devs and publishers feel compelled to include some sort of DRM. Many feel they no longer get appropriate value specifically because of the game's DRM. Ironically they then use this to justify pirating it themselves.

 

 

I could go on, but it's getting late. Enjoy trying out your free stuff. People like me will keep footing the bill and suffering for it.

 

 

EDIT: As a note, I used to pirate software and music too. But I stopped because I realized I was just being a hypocrite and felt I was further compromising the industry. While I dealt with this realization my piracy continually slowed until the last piece of software I pirated. This was Jedi Academy. THe game was okay and fun enough. I wasn't sure about buying it to start, so I wanted to just try it out. I ended up beating the game, and I realized just how difficult it is to knowingly pay for something after realizing that you're likely never going to pick it up again. Went and bought it and I don't even know where the box is any more.

 

I can't even remember the last time I downloaded music illegally. I just use youtube to try it out.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Oblarg]

You don't need it but you want to give it a try. There isn't a medium for the promotion of underground music or games that is both legal and convenient, piracy offers them one. Aside from that you are absolutely right they don't need it but it takes way too much money to have all these books, albums, software, games. It sort of when demand exceeds the means to acquire it.

 

Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess. All this is is a rationalization.

 

These industries have grown to the point where we cannot keep up with them, it's hard to be an avid consumer of any product and buy them indiscriminately. I for one buy games like screening a prospective date, find out everything about it, weight pro's and con's, and hope that all the time I will spend on it will be rewarding. Because I simply don't have the means to afford all these games and wouldn't like to waste money on something that isn't going to please me. Same for books and comics.

Plus if it was going to be pirated, it wasn't going to be bought.

 

You rationalize your piracy by saying you wouldn't have bought it otherwise. I wonder how many times you rationalize that the content isn't really worth paying for it after you've already consumed it in its entirety. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing and human beings jump through hoops. Because you can't afford it all just makes me shake my head. You can't pirate it all either. Must be having a crisis over there eh?

 

 

People can argue whether or not it helps or hurts. Few people supply the numbers, and the only ones that are really interested in doing so are the industries themselves. So to let themselves sleep at night people will rationalize that they are overstating it, regurgitate that one act of piracy does not mean one lost sale, etc. etc.

 

Since we're talking about being forced to do things though, here's a fact. Because people such as yourself pirate software, legit paying customers are forced to deal with DRM in order to consume their favorite media. I don't care much for the music aspect of things, but as a through and through gamer you can be sure I'm not at all delighted at the hoops I and other legitimate customers need to jump through in response to people such as yourself being "unsure" if they want to buy it. If you don't think the game is worth the $60 when it comes out, try this: wait until the price goes down.

 

Pirating software is purely selfish. And the selfishness of pirates is compromising the industry because now devs and publishers feel compelled to include some sort of DRM. Many feel they no longer get appropriate value specifically because of the game's DRM. Ironically they then use this to justify pirating it themselves.

 

 

I could go on, but it's getting late. Enjoy trying out your free stuff. People like me will keep footing the bill and suffering for it.

 

 

EDIT: As a note, I used to pirate software and music too. But I stopped because I realized I was just being a hypocrite and felt I was further compromising the industry. While I dealt with this realization my piracy continually slowed until the last piece of software I pirated. This was Jedi Academy. THe game was okay and fun enough. I wasn't sure about buying it to start, so I wanted to just try it out. I ended up beating the game, and I realized just how difficult it is to knowingly pay for something after realizing that you're likely never going to pick it up again. Went and bought it and I don't even know where the box is any more.

 

I can't even remember the last time I downloaded music illegally. I just use youtube to try it out.

 

Look, I don't buy music that isn't either from a band that I already know very well or that I have not listened to extensively. Given my taste in music, that's rather hard to do legally.

 

Now how can you honestly say that in doing that I am being purely selfish and harming the artist? That's simply wrong.

[Orogun01]

Exactly how is it that harming everyone for a few is acceptable for a loss that's it's not severe? Despite views on piracy most would agree that anti-piracy attempts hurts us all, Internet is about freedom and apparently some people take that to heart. There is simply no way to stop this, companies should do what its always been done ever since hacking began: change the model. They should try reaching out to the pirates and work on an mutually beneficial model, even if all do not respond all that they need is someone with the perspective to bring forth a new form of distribution.

 

How do you think Steam was born?

[Calax]

Exactly how is it that harming everyone for a few is acceptable for a loss that's it's not severe? Despite views on piracy most would agree that anti-piracy attempts hurts us all, Internet is about freedom and apparently some people take that to heart. There is simply no way to stop this, companies should do what its always been done ever since hacking began: change the model. They should try reaching out to the pirates and work on an mutually beneficial model, even if all do not respond all that they need is someone with the perspective to bring forth a new form of distribution.

 

How do you think Steam was born?

This.

 

Seriously, one of the biggest reasons books are pirated online is because the copy protection stuff put on the books prevent text-to-speech conversion for the blind, who promptly go and pirate it simply so they can read it (and not have a 400 lb brick in their living room that would otherwise be about a half pound).

 

Steam is actually a pretty good version of anti-piracy ware because not only does it act as DRM but it also gives you a social networking and multiplayer feature built into the system itself, providing benefits to the consumer as well as the dev. Also, more controversially, it drops overhead and a bit of finagling by removing the necessity of disks due to the way that the games are tied to your account.

[Oblarg]

Food for thought: Stardock has next to no DRM on their games, and yet their sales are fine - SoaSE did great.

[Humodour]

Food for thought: Stardock has next to no DRM on their games, and yet their sales are fine - SoaSE did great.

 

Nice find!

[Nepenthe]

Exactly how is it that harming everyone for a few is acceptable for a loss that's it's not severe? Despite views on piracy most would agree that anti-piracy attempts hurts us all, Internet is about freedom and apparently some people take that to heart. There is simply no way to stop this, companies should do what its always been done ever since hacking began: change the model. They should try reaching out to the pirates and work on an mutually beneficial model, even if all do not respond all that they need is someone with the perspective to bring forth a new form of distribution.

 

How do you think Steam was born?

 

Now you're just changing the discussion. DRM is not the solution.

 

Also, good job rationalising your music piracy above. The 'simply wrong' argument never fails.

 

Of course I can't speak for all indie labels out there, I know I've always managed to find good samples of the stuff I buy, before I have to. Maybe the industrial scene is just exceptionally well directed towards the web due to the ideology behind.

[Meshugger]

Thanks to youtube and spotify, i haven't bought an album in years.

[Nepenthe]

The last time I bought a physical album was in July (it was a gift though - I bought one for myself in May), the last complete digital album was on the 22nd... And yeah, I do have Spotify, too.

[Walsingham]

I buy albuyms when I go to gigs. And I pay a monthly subscription for a music service. Works well for me!

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Steam is actually a pretty good version of anti-piracy ware...

 

No, It's really not.

[Oblarg]

And I just bought several CDs about a month ago. And I'm planning to buy another in a few days. So what?

[Orogun01]

Now you're just changing the discussion. DRM is not the solution.

 

Also, good job rationalising your music piracy above. The 'simply wrong' argument never fails.

 

Of course I can't speak for all indie labels out there, I know I've always managed to find good samples of the stuff I buy, before I have to. Maybe the industrial scene is just exceptionally well directed towards the web due to the ideology behind.

Since we touched the subject of Industrial , do you know where I could buy Razed in Black albums?