What is bad about the gameplay ASIDE from people trying to play this like a shooter?

[Tigranes]

Everyone play nice...

[edgarcuk]

I understand that you might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but stay with me here. My argument is not based on wanting a pure stealth game. I'm perfectly fine with a stealth/shooter combo, or even a pure shooter. What I DON'T want however, is a gameplay system that requires a high degree of player input and micromanagement (in AP you literally control a character's every move) but then has a random stat based chance of failure even if the player does everything right. If you abstract combat completely, a la BG, then I'm fine with dice rolls. But if you give me full control of the character, and I swing a sword or shoot a gun, and hit the enemy, I expect that to register. To shoot someone point blank and miss because of a dice roll is bad, bad, bad gameplay.

 

Well, perhaps what you are asking for is a combat a la ME2, where you just aim right and kill the enemy. I don't call it micromanagement since you are controlling the character, but you are not managing any other characters or resources... as other members have pointed out you can upgrade your weapon, also how it was exposed here going Rambo is better to specialised on SMG and shotgun...

 

Just one question, when you aim with the pistol, do you wait for the red points to show until they converge in a single red cross hair?... that is maximum accuracy and the shoot will hit, but I you just aim and shoot, you've got a very large probability to miss...

 

The second part of my complaint is how the stealth gameplay works. Pressing a magic button that allows you to run completely invisible in a bright room full of enemies is cheap gameplay. It shows that the designers didn't put in the time to design levels for a true stealth path, and instead just gave you an all purpose "I win" button and called it a day.

 

None of these problems are game-breaking, mind you, and I still enjoyed AP because of it's story, but most of the gameplay is mediocre. It's not horrible, but it's definitely not good either.

 

Sorry, but to clearly state that the gameplay is mediocre, doesn't help you since various members of this forum can "manage" to go through...

 

perhaps is better to describe what are you doing when shooting...

Edited June 13, 2010 by edgarcuk

[Spiked]

About stealth.

 

Well, I do agree that there should have been more alternative routs, designed for stealth approach around levels. There were a lot of them in Saudi, but after that not so much. But, no one is forcing you to use invisibility. Sure, its easier, but you don't have to. Just put a couple of points into stealth, enough so that the skill can help you, but not enough so that it makes it unrealistic. You get like, longer awareness, 2 seconds of invisibility before you are spotted, kinda like a warning, I'm fine with that. And put the rest of the points into some other skill, that could help you when you can't use stealth, like in a wide open room full with enemies. SMGs, or grenades, or chain shot, or whatever you find more realistic then shadow operative.

 

I did this on a a couple of my playthroughs and it was fun. I use realistic stealth when I can, and some other skill when that fails. Also, I did one playthrough in which I was almost exclusively relying on stealth skill, and that was fun too. Not realistic, but what is realistic in video games? And you can't just turn into a ghost and and breeze through a level, that skill lasts for a couple of seconds and then it takes a lot of time to recharge, so you need to use it strategically, when you really must, just like silent running. It was really fun.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Spiked

[C2B]

About stealth.

 

Well, I do agree that there should have been more alternative routs, designed for stealth approach around levels. There were a lot of them in Saudi, but after that not so much. But, no one is forcing you to us invisibility. Sure, its easier, but you don't have to. Just put a couple of points into stealth, enough so that the skill can help you, but not enough so that it makes it unrealistic. You get like, longer awareness, 2 seconds of invisibility before you are spotted, kinda like a warning, I'm fine with that. And put the rest of the points into some other skill, that could help you when you can't use stealth, like in a wide open room full with enemies. SMGs, or grenades, or chain shot, or whatever you find more realistic then shadow operative.

 

I did this on a a couple of my playthroughs and it was fun. I use realistic stealth when I can, and some other skill when that fails. Also, I did one playthrough in which I was almost exclusively relying on stealth skill, and that was fun too. Not realistic, but what is realistic in video games? And you can't just turn into a ghost and and breeze through a level, that skill lasts for a couple of seconds and then it takes a lot of time to recharge, so you need to use it strategically, when you really must, just like silent running. It was really fun.

 

Also, since this is an rpg, furthermore a hommage on the spy/federal agent gerne in general overkill abilities make sense. I elaborated on that in my first post. Don't like it don't use it.

 

Also I'm amused when people speak of realism and then bring splinter cell up. And I do not mean the story. .-.

[GhostofAnakin]

What I DON'T want however, is a gameplay system that requires a high degree of player input and micromanagement (in AP you literally control a character's every move) but then has a random stat based chance of failure even if the player does everything right. If you abstract combat completely, a la BG, then I'm fine with dice rolls. But if you give me full control of the character, and I swing a sword or shoot a gun, and hit the enemy, I expect that to register. To shoot someone point blank and miss because of a dice roll is bad, bad, bad gameplay.

 

Just out of curiosity, did you like Fallout 3, Oblivion, or Mass Effect 1?

 

All three had similar issues, yet none of them seemed to get trashed in the reviews because of it.

[C2B]

What I DON'T want however, is a gameplay system that requires a high degree of player input and micromanagement (in AP you literally control a character's every move) but then has a random stat based chance of failure even if the player does everything right. If you abstract combat completely, a la BG, then I'm fine with dice rolls. But if you give me full control of the character, and I swing a sword or shoot a gun, and hit the enemy, I expect that to register. To shoot someone point blank and miss because of a dice roll is bad, bad, bad gameplay.

 

Just out of curiosity, did you like Fallout 3, Oblivion, or Mass Effect 1?

 

All three had similar issues, yet none of them seemed to get trashed in the reviews because of it.

 

Ahhh, I overlooked that post.

 

Well, I give up. Don't even try answer to him. He's arrogant enough thinking he knows exactly what an rpg is and brings completly flawed statements.

 

I especially like:

 

equires a high degree of player input and micromanagement (in AP you literally control a character's every move) but then has a random stat based chance of failure even if the player does everything right.

 

First of all, every rpg requires that. Which attack, which skill to choose, which formation etc.etc. But hey, you have your opinion. I'm tired to argue with something like that.

[Oner]

He's arrogant enough thinking he knows exactly what an rpg is(...)

Also, a true rpg doesn't have to be(...)

Hypocrisy much?

[C2B]

He's arrogant enough thinking he knows exactly what an rpg is(...)

Also, a true rpg doesn't have to be(...)

Hypocrisy much?

 

? I just said that a true rpg doesn't need to be fully character based. It can, but this is probably mostly real life rp or p&p, so.

 

My argument is that there are slim to none crpg (except reallly REALLY easy ones) that are fully character based in combat. Player skill is just as required, even more than in AP since quick thinking is even more required, choosing skills, changing formation, heal, tank, nerfing, buffing etc.

 

Is that wrong?

 

I don't really see the hypocrazy.

Edited June 13, 2010 by C2B

[Oner]

If you have to ask C2B, then there's your answer.

[C2B]

If you have to ask C2B, then there's your answer.

 

I'm not...... I do really not understand. If I have said something "This is how it should be" or similiar I would understand, but I'm honestly confused. I even gave a reason for what I said and compared it.

 

Where did I specify something?

 

I even said it still can be, just that it isn't the case in most crpgs.... Where what`? Where's the hypocrazy. I would really like to take it back and reflect on it but I just can't find out what you mean?

Edited June 13, 2010 by C2B

[Oner]

Wouldn't you say that saying that (properly horrible way to start a sentence ) categorizing some RPGs as "true" and "untrue" is pretty much deciding what an RPG is on your own?

[C2B]

Wouldn't you say that saying that (properly horrible way to start a sentence ) categorizing some RPGs as "true" and "untrue" is pretty much deciding what an RPG is on your own?

 

That was actually more of an answer to him and more sarcastically spoken. I should have used "" to specify this. Sorry.

[Oner]

I see.

No harm meant or done.

[Alpha]

BG and all other cRPGs that use D&D ruleset modeled rogue stealth to be pretty much like invisibility, instead of doing realistic stealth (and pen and paper rules do support proper realistic stealth).

splinter cell conviction, Oblivion, KoTOR and MGS games had it too in different ways but basically the same. The new ghost recon will have it too. This are games and games aren't realistic.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Alpha

[Grand_Commander13]

So can we finally put the Shadow Operative complaint to bed? I think the stats in combat complaint has been taken care of sufficiently.

[Oblarg]

As much as everyone here has been denying it, there is legitimacy to the complaint about the duality of player skill and character skill. However, it is not at all specific to AP (in fact, it has plagued most action RPGs to date). Requiring both aiming (player skill) and RNG (character skill) is a tough balance to get right - you risk either losing the feel of the game being an RPG (too much player skill, too little character skill), having the shooting being clunky (too much character skill, too little player skill), or having the shooting being frustratingly hard (too much of both). I think AP (once you get your weapon skills up) came closer to balancing it correctly than most other action RPGs have, but the system still needs a few tweaks.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Oblarg

[MarteenDee]

What's wrong with gameplay being similar to one of the most popular stealth games ever made? Why waste time reinventing the wheel when you can just go with what works gameplay wise and focus on creating what Splinter Cell doesn't have, and what Obsidian does best - crafting intricate characters and a compelling, branching story? That's what I play RPGs for personally, gameplay considerations are secondary.

 

If I would want to play Splinter Cell - I would play it. And not Alpha Protocol.

What's wrong with gameplay being similar to whatever? Lack of creativity. And creativity is some really rare gem in gaming industry these days. That's why I prefer games being innovative over clones of the same old sh**t.

Game creation is an art, in case you don't know that, and like every art - should evolve and search for different routes of expression... (unless you still want to play Pong as a "only real" action game, or Wastelands as "only real" RPG)

 

I disagree.

AP is not even close to being a "true" RPG, nor does it aspire to be. A true old school RPG is entirely character based. You point the character at what to attack, and the rest is dice rolls. A shooter is always going to be primarily player skill based. Stats just add a % chance of failure even when you as a player do everything right.

 

As I said - this reasoning leads to stagnation. If everybody would think like you do we would be still playing text based RPGs.

Giving another example - is "Vampire -The Masquerade" less of an RPG than "AD&D 2nd Edition" just because in former you have dots and accent put on playing your role, instead of numerical stats and dice roll for every action?

 

You really want to bring realism into this? Leaving aside the fact that AP is as accurate a portrayal of real world espionage as it is of underwater fly fishing, is it realistic that an elite agent starts out being unable to hit the broad side of a barn at 2 feet and 3 months later can insta snipe enemies at 50 yards with a pistol without a second thought?

 

You should start thinking more out of the box you've put yourself in, Dan. And get out that cave. The truth is out there...

[SNIPER231JRC]

This debate is never ending, there are so many players from different genre's and while you may enjoy the RPG aspect many other players will not. Now, I know that this is a RPG game, but many people will not like the same combat system that you do. I could not stand inaccurate weapons at 5 ft away, but I still played the game and bought my gear as I progressed thru my first campaign. Once I got to the rittergrupen tier 2 and tier 3 weapons I loved the game. It wasn't until I started looking thru the game files later on after, that I saw a way around this to suit my gameplay style. I would be willing to bet that 90% of bad reviews for AP are done by FPS players.

 

Anyway what I found wrong from my playthru's were very minor errors.

-sometimes when you are crouched up against a wall and some guy walks thru the doorway you can't strike. Its not added to many doorways and walls.

-deactivating timers (using the mouse keys is easy, then you press spacebar. However using the mouse to get to a codeblock on the pc is very problematic. I have heard xbox doesn't suffer from this. Many times I would goto click on a code block and the mouse would be on the wrong codeblock cause it doesn't really follow your mouse pointer on the pc version. Maybe its cause I have 3600 DPI mouse, I am not sure. The mouse codeblock movement on pc version is very jumpy.

 

These will affects your gameplay bigtime

-When your setup for a strike, then the option to hit him in the throat doesn't popup. You have to exit the wall and sprint with melee before he can raise his weapon. You were waiting on him and then no option to use melee. Due to this error if you are not fast enough to respond it can raise an alarm or allow him to shoot giving away your presence to all enemies. The option to attack from certain walls and doors isn't there. Easily overlooked, but it is a flaw of level design that I would like to see fixed.

 

I do the stealth route and I do the assault route...

Once an alarm is raised I leave the alarm going and I just go into assault mode switching to APSD rounds and removing silencers from my weapons.

 

I didn't buy AP for RPG as my favorite game series are easily... rainbowsix, rogue spear, ghost recon, splinter cell, project igi, and swat.

 

what sold me to purchase AP was... Multiple endings and career paths (That is why I bought it) replayability.

 

When I think of AP, I compare it to Hellgate London since you have to acquire money and build up your weapons slowly overtime.

 

Gameplay - I only had 3 complaints when I first had this game

(Combat * fixed now, Unable to melee on some areas, and jumpy responses to mousing over code blocks)

Story and multiple paths - I love this part of the game so much.

 

The only thing I really see that I notice alot more now is melee strikes with a knife. They appear to be off - as the body is falling mike is digging his knife out of the side of the guys throat. when the 3d model of your dead tango has almost hit the floor.

Another easy one to overlook though. Other modders have fixed the crouch and movement speed for animations I just hope that obsidian fixes the knife kills animation.

 

This is just my point of view as an FPS player and the only things that I find really affect my gameplay experience. I don't really see or can think of anythingelse at all that is wrong with this game.

[Thorton_AP]

What I DON'T want however, is a gameplay system that requires a high degree of player input and micromanagement (in AP you literally control a character's every move) but then has a random stat based chance of failure even if the player does everything right

 

If you miss at point blank range when shooting in AP, then you didn't do everything right.

[Amentep]

All computer based games are going to involve targeting of some kind (otherwise you could swing a sword in front of you and hit the guy behind you). I don't see why that's an issue with AP in relation to its calculation of hits.

 

What I've found - and I'm doing stealth/martial artist with pistols in a pinch at the moment - is that the pistol tends to work best in certain conditions. Its harder to shoot the guy across the warehouse with than if you're a few feet away.

 

(There's also an assumption that people can't miss at point blank range when, as far as I know, they can).

[Hassat Hunter]

-deactivating timers (using the mouse keys is easy, then you press spacebar. However using the mouse to get to a codeblock on the pc is very problematic. I have heard xbox doesn't suffer from this. Many times I would goto click on a code block and the mouse would be on the wrong codeblock cause it doesn't really follow your mouse pointer on the pc version. Maybe its cause I have 3600 DPI mouse, I am not sure. The mouse codeblock movement on pc version is very jumpy.

Mouse keys? Typo?

Anyway, as soon as you realise your mouse cursor and the block aren't moving in sync, and you just IGNORE THE MOUSECURSOR you will probably notice, like me, that the mouseblock is *much* easier to lock into place than the slow annoying keyboard section.

[dan107]

Pressing a magic button that allows you to run completely invisible in a bright room full of enemies is cheap gameplay.

Baldur's Gate 2 got an "Improved Invisibility" spell.

Is that game cheap too?

 

No, because a) magic exists in the world of BG so it makes sense and b) combat in BG is so abstracted that it doesn't really matter. BG's engine does not allow you to hide and sneak around enemies' line of sight. AP's does.

 

I understand that you might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but stay with me here.

Do you insult everyone who disagrees with you?

 

No, only the douchebags that completely discount what I said and imply that I'm a whiner. I don't appreciate being quoted like this:

 

I want a stealth game "W

[dan107]

Just out of curiosity, did you like Fallout 3, Oblivion, or Mass Effect 1?

 

All three had similar issues, yet none of them seemed to get trashed in the reviews because of it.

 

Didn't play Fallout or Oblivion. ME1 had that issue as well, but you could pause the game to aim at close range to mitigate it somewhat. Having said that I agree that AP got a raw deal in the reviews. In spite of its problems it's still a very good game. Even the gameplay isn't horrible, it's just not good IMO.

 

Ahhh, I overlooked that post.

 

Well, I give up. Don't even try answer to him. He's arrogant enough thinking he knows exactly what an rpg is and brings completly flawed statements.

 

If you've got something to say to me you should address it to me directly, not talk about me in 3rd person like the little weasel you seem to be.

 

I especially like:

 

equires a high degree of player input and micromanagement (in AP you literally control a character's every move) but then has a random stat based chance of failure even if the player does everything right.

 

First of all, every rpg requires that. Which attack, which skill to choose, which formation etc.etc. But hey, you have your opinion. I'm tired to argue with something like that.

 

Are you really unable to grasp the difference between selecting an enemy and ordering a character to attack vs. manually controlling a character's aim and dodging? It's not black and white, there's a wide spectrum here, and AP and BG are pretty far apart on it.

 

As far as what a true RPG is, I only went there because you did. Honestly it's completely irrelevant what an RPG is and if AP is truly one. It's just a pointless label.

 

Wouldn't you say that saying that (properly horrible way to start a sentence ) categorizing some RPGs as "true" and "untrue" is pretty much deciding what an RPG is on your own?

 

That was actually more of an answer to him and more sarcastically spoken. I should have used "" to specify this. Sorry.

 

Really? So this was sarcasm and not an attempt to define an RPG?

 

Also, a true rpg doesn't have to be turnbased and is not only character based.

First of all, every rpg requires that. Which attack, which skill to choose, which formation etc.etc.

 

I bow before your wit, sir.

Edited June 14, 2010 by dan107

[Amentep]

The levels are not designed to allow for realistic stealth for the most part. Evasion is a cheap as invisibility, and there are spots in almost every level that you cannot sneak past without evasion or invisibility.

 

I will say that at least for me I found the level design while fairly straightforward to also mostly allow for stealth at least until you got to a point in which stealth wasn't really possible anymore (like walking into a wide open area with loads of enemy - they the only way to stealth would be to use the fantastical stealth skills).

 

I've been playing as mostly stealth/martial arts, but I've found several instances where I've had to resort to gunfighting.

 

I suppose if you were looking to being totally stealthy those areas that have those wide open spaces would be a bit off-putting given the lack of alternate paths.

 

I guess I don't have a problem with it because I never expected to be able to stealth every level, but I can see where that kind of choice might bug others.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Amentep

[Hassat Hunter]

No, because a) magic exists in the world of BG so it makes sense and b) combat in BG is so abstracted that it doesn't really matter. BG's engine does not allow you to hide and sneak around enemies' line of sight. AP's does.

It isn't magic. It's a skill. Like Chain Shot (which is impossible to do IRL).

While I don't recall BG's specific "Hide in Shadows" routine (never bothered too much with rogues and stuff) I am pretty sure it was indeed still possible. One common tactic heard about fighting Basilisks in BG1 was parking a rogue to see them (in their FoV), then attack then with AoE spells from beyond their LoS.

Also, KOTOR completely allows one to become invisible, and that's without the use of the "Force" (read: Magic). Guess that's a horrible RPG too, even if combat is completely stat-based?