Israel butchers civilians in international waters

[Wrath of Dagon]

Nice, your source is Palestinian National Authority. And those statistics, even if true, are probably better than most poor countries. There's nothing to show it has anything to do with the blockade.

[heathen]

So, Wrath of Dagon, linking us to extremist websites with dubious claims that contradict almost every other source is pretty useless and lame.

You mean contradict your brainwashing.

 

The general conditions for the vast majority of the population of Gaza have been well documented, amongst others the BBC, Amnesty and multiple other credible sources. Linking to some obscure french website that's clearly filled with hate speech isn't contradicting anything since it's not at all credible in the first place.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7280026.stm

 

 

 

More than 1.1 million Gazans are dependent on food aid and of 110,000 workers previously employed in the private sector, 75,000 have now lost their jobs, the report says.

 

"Unless the blockade ends now, it will be impossible to pull Gaza back from the brink of this disaster and any hopes for peace in the region will be dashed," said Geoffrey Dennis, of Care International UK.

 

This was in 2008, the conditions have worsened a lot.

Edited June 3, 2010 by heathen

[Volourn]

"By this quote-unquote "logic," most Americans during the Cold War approved of the systematic overthrow of democratic governments and supplanting them with right-wing autocracies. Check your premises."

 

Check your premises. Difference is, did the voting public know before hand that the governemnt they voted in would do so? if they did, then yeah, theyw ere giving their approval otherwise no. In comparison, most opeople who voted Bush in the first time did not vote for him to invade two countries since he, in fact, ran on the principle of non violent confrotnation... ebfore 9/11 occured and changed everyone's outlook.

 

Palestinians knew before voting for Hamas the kind of group - and political party - they are. They know Hamas targets children and are proud of it. Hamas targets Palestinians, and are proud of it. Hamas's main goal is the iradication of Isreal, and are proud of it. None of this knowledge is secret yet the Palestinians voted for them,, anyways, despite having a suitable altenrative who while anti isreal aren't as bloodthirsty as Hamas. This tells me the Palestinians tatitly approve of Hamas' shenanigans or prefer it to the alternative party's shenanigans.

 

The truth may hurt but it's still the truth.

 

 

"But still, does it mean "they got what they deserved"?"

 

No, of course not. Nobody deserves to be slaughtered, and wiped out. Including them dirty evil Isreali Jew monsters.

 

 

"And besides, if it was "Gaza = Palestine = Hamas = Terrorist" then nations around the world would bomb them all to hell instead of sending them aid, and get it over with."

 

A. Most civilized nations tend to try avoid such massacre.

 

B. There's a huge difference 'tcitly approving' of the terroist actions and being a terrorist..

 

C. Many Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas so obviously disaprove of their actions. Why punish them.

 

D. Many chidlren are there. Why punish them?

 

E. Even Isreal doesn't mass bomb Palestine for multiple reasons (some genuinely morale others for PC reasons) even though they have the capaibility to dos.

 

F. If 'evil terrorist' was a reason to wipe a coyuntry out, NK would have been lit up years ago.

 

Don't be silly.

[Junai]

Israel is basically a country with Short Man Syndrome.

Sad but true..

 

Ever since the Exodus 3,5k years ago this nervous little man has faced obliteration time and over again,

every damned century. Now it's been 70 years, and the world looks at him and sighs, wondering when he'll

stop fancying himself as the victimized son of God, beset by enemies on all sides. They offer him council in

dark times, give him weapons, money, and a land to live in. Still he's at war with his surroundings continuously,

snarling at invisible enemies with his feet firmly planted in defiance. He dreams of expanding and ruling the

mini-empire given to him by boarding boats in open waters and shamelessly whacking emissaries in foreign countries.

While screaming and shouting he tries to muzzle media around the world, demanding that politicians all over

hang up pictures of the big ugly German on their walls as a reminder of how badly he was treated a while back.

 

How long does this fella' have left ?!?!?!

 

By having patience with an unruly.. impossible child, you grow in wisdom.

That's why he's God's child. By loving him despite his idiocy and pranks, you're brought closer to the creator.

 

 

J.

[Gfted1]

...snarling at invisible enemies with his feet firmly planted in defiance.

 

 

Invisible enemies? What planet do you live on?

Edited June 3, 2010 by Gfted1

[Cycloneman]

Check your premises. Difference is, did the voting public know before hand that the governemnt they voted in would do so? if they did, then yeah, theyw ere giving their approval otherwise no.

Well, considering they kept voting for them... For example, US President Dwight Eisenhower overthrew the government of both Iran in 1954 (and it was well known that Operation Ajax was US-backed), yet was reelected in 1956.

Nice, your source is Palestinian National Authority.

Okay, other than the government of Palestine, who would you trust to explain that yes, Virginia, malnutrition does exist at greater-than-normal levels in a country suffering under the Israeli blockade?

And those statistics, even if true, are probably better than most poor countries. There's nothing to show it has anything to do with the blockade.

No, those are really awful statistics, even for poor countries.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Nice, your source is Palestinian National Authority.

Okay, other than the government of Palestine, who would you trust to explain that yes, Virginia, malnutrition does exist at greater-than-normal levels in a country suffering under the Israeli blockade?

Oh, I don't know, an objective and independent source instead of the Palestinian propaganda machine?

 

Edit: Israel transfers an average of 15000 tons a week in humanitarian supplies, so if there's malnutrition it's not Israel's fault. Hamas meanwhile seems to have plenty of money to buy missiles and other weapons.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_...blockade_glance

Edited June 3, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Cycloneman]

Nice, your source is Palestinian National Authority.

Okay, other than the government of Palestine, who would you trust to explain that yes, Virginia, malnutrition does exist at greater-than-normal levels in a country suffering under the Israeli blockade?

Oh, I don't know, an objective and independent source instead of the Palestinian propaganda machine?

How about the Red Cross? On they other hand, they're a humanitarian organization, so they're naturally going to be biased against Israel.

[heathen]

Nice, your source is Palestinian National Authority.

Okay, other than the government of Palestine, who would you trust to explain that yes, Virginia, malnutrition does exist at greater-than-normal levels in a country suffering under the Israeli blockade?

Oh, I don't know, an objective and independent source instead of the Palestinian propaganda machine?

 

Name an objective source since you obviously don't consider any news sources like the BBC article I linked credible. If right wing websites are all you trust then you need a reality check, bad.

 

Edit: Israel transfers an average of 15000 tons a week in humanitarian supplies, so if there's malnutrition it's not Israel's fault. Hamas meanwhile seems to have plenty of money to buy missiles and other weapons.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_...blockade_glance

 

That's not much considering there's 1.5 million people living in Gaza.

 

Also for comparison, 1.5 million average americans produce 19 500 000 kilograms of waste per week. (13 kilos per person, hope I counted that right)

Edited June 3, 2010 by heathen

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, they're so unbiased they won't even let Israel join.

 

Edit:

Name an objective source since you obviously don't consider any news sources like the BBC article I linked credible. If right wing websites are all you trust then you need a reality check, bad.

The pictures speak for themselves, and it's linked to Palestine Today in case you didn't notice. Edited June 3, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[heathen]

Yes, they're so unbiased they won't even let Israel join.

 

Edit:

Name an objective source since you obviously don't consider any news sources like the BBC article I linked credible. If right wing websites are all you trust then you need a reality check, bad.

The pictures speak for themselves, and it's linked to Palestine Today in case you didn't notice.

 

1.5 million people, and you've linked us with a table full of apples. You're either trolling or delusional.

[Nemo0071]

"And besides, if it was "Gaza = Palestine = Hamas = Terrorist" then nations around the world would bomb them all to hell instead of sending them aid, and get it over with."

 

A. Most civilized nations tend to try avoid such massacre.

B. There's a huge difference 'tcitly approving' of the terroist actions and being a terrorist..

C. Many Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas so obviously disaprove of their actions. Why punish them.

D. Many chidlren are there. Why punish them?

E. Even Isreal doesn't mass bomb Palestine for multiple reasons (some genuinely morale others for PC reasons) even though they have the capaibility to dos.

F. If 'evil terrorist' was a reason to wipe a coyuntry out, NK would have been lit up years ago.

 

Don't be silly.

 

A) Not when they're dealing with terrorists.

B) My point exactly.

C, D) Also my point.

E) I'm pretty sure they bombed the s*** out of Palestine. But if you mean "erase them all from the face of the Earth" by mass bombing, I guess they're afraid someone might mention "genocide".

F) Maybe.

 

G) Ok boss, whatever you say.

 

 

A note about the people that did vote for Hamas:

 

Maybe out of fear? I mean out of fear of Hamas, OR Israel. When someone starts bombing your neighborhood and killing people you know, I think you simply want them to go away, you don't think about "how". You vote for whoever seems more able to protect you, and has the guns to prove it. Or, they could always intimidate you into voting for them with said guns...

 

But of course it's all just speculation. I can't know for sure because nobody bombed my house, thank God.

[Volourn]

"Maybe out of fear? I mean out of fear of Hamas, OR Israel. When someone starts bombing your neighborhood and killing people you know, I think you simply want them to go away, you don't think about "how". You vote for whoever seems more able to protect you, and has the guns to prove it. Or, they could always intimidate you into voting for them with said guns..."

 

Hamas has done a rather poor job defending Palestinians. In fact, they have done nothing to protect Palestine. If that's a reason someone cites for voting Hamas, they are dumb.

[heathen]

^^ They're actually have, or at least had a big and well organized, well relatively at least, grassroots aid to the poor. You could say they bought themselves into power. You have to remember, the people in Gaza don't get any news from the outside world that aren't filtered through propaganda, either Israeli or Hamas.

 

 

 

edited for clarity.

Edited June 3, 2010 by heathen

[~Di]

The CNN quote you provided is funny though because that's not what's being reported in Swedish newspapers. And in this case I choose to believe my local sources.

 

This is exactly what I was complaining about in my original post. International media is not providing both sides of the story. Because of that, half the planet is getting biased, incomplete information and have turned into rabid, irrational Israel haters who will not believe any source that gives both sides of the story and doesn't conform to what they want to believe... which is that Israel is evil and always in the wrong.

 

Yes, they're refusing to accept the aid. That much is clear. But why? Israel says they have 20 trucks of aid.. well, each one of those boats held more than 20 trucks of aid originally! Again, they have stolen 90% of the goods and are delivering the scraps to the people of Gaza. Great job of reporting it as them delivering everything they found as the good Samaritans they are and are being stopped by the evil, evil Hamas. It's not that easy. Great job of ignoring the other side you keep preaching about.

 

Er, you do realize that there probably wasn't 120 trucks available to deliver the entire cargo of all six trucks at once, right? You just presume that Israel "stole" the rest of it without the slightest evidence for your allegation, then make a snide remark to me?? You also realize that Israel provides more than 2 million tons of food, fuel and supplies to Gaza annually, at its own expense. That's nearly two tons each for every man, woman and child in Gaza. Of course, Israel does not distribute the supplies to the populace. Hamas takes control of it... and of course, would not dream of distributing those supplies to themselves and their supporters instead of to the general populace. Hey, I might as well go ahead and accuse Hamas, since I have as much proof for my allegation as you have for yours.

 

If they were being beaten.. and had their weapons taken from them.. how did they manage to escape this horrible, life-threatening situation without casualties and with NINE HELP WORKERS SHOT AND KILLED? Are those nine dead people hyperbole? Feel free to explain how you're thinking here. Nine people are DEAD, none of them soldiers. How's that for facts?

 

Israel suffered casualties. Ten soldiers were wounded seriously enough to be hospitalized, many are still in critical condition. The video shows many soldiers jumping overboard to save their own lives. Those attackers were not helpless. They had deadly weapons of their own, and then they had firearms taken from the soldiers they had beaten. They started their attack when the boarding boat came along side, and their arsenal included stun grenades. I posted the YouTube link. Try checking it out. Try reading newspapers that are not your "local source", and see if there isn't some information missing from said source, information that might be relevant to your decision-making process. Not that it will matter. You have tunnel vision. You know what you believe and will not consider any evidence that does not support those beliefs. You are the walking personification of the problem, and the reason why said problem will not be solved in my lifetime, or in yours.

[Volourn]

"not what's being reported in Swedish newspapers. And in this case I choose to believe my local sources."

 

Hilarious.

[Gorgon]

Sometimes I wonder if there really is a *truth* or if what we are seeing is evidence of a rift in the space-time continuum giving rise to the convergence of parallel universes.

 

 

In one universe Israel is the always misunderstood but fair and even handed guardian of democracy fending off Islamic terrorism, in the other it is a jaded hypocrite, content to talk about a peace process but for more than a decade also not genuinely interested in giving up military repression of the Palestinian people to preserve the status quo. That old truism that in war the first victim is the truth seems particularly appropriate. There are just sides, no one is capable of being objective.

[~Di]

Sometimes I wonder if there really is a *truth* or if what we are seeing is evidence of a rift in the space-time continuum giving rise to the convergence of parallel universes.

 

 

In one universe Israel is the always misunderstood but fair and even handed guardian of democracy fending off Islamic terrorism, in the other it is a jaded hypocrite, content to talk about a peace process but for more than a decade also not genuinely interested in giving up military repression of the Palestinian people to preserve the status quo. That old truism that in war the first victim is the truth seems particularly appropriate. There are just sides, no one is capable of being objective.

 

I agree. There's Israel's side, there's the Palestinian side, and then there's the truth, which I suspect nobody on the planet really knows. Bottom line, dispite Israel's totally botched boarding on ship 6... and when it came along side it should have immediately known that the situation was hostile and potentially deadly, yet they walked right into it anyway, the fools... Israel honestly believes that controlling contraband that could be use to manufacture explosives, rockets and weapons or to assist Hamas' hobby of building tunnels is critical to its own security. Therefore, Israel is never going to lift the blockade and will continue to inspect all cargo going into Gaza. It doesn't care what the international community says because it believes its own security is at stake. *shrug* Nothing is going to change in our lifetimes, because the world has bred more generations of people who are absolutely polarized on this issue and will never change their stance or their minds. On both sides.

[mkreku]

They started their attack when the boarding boat came along side, and their arsenal included stun grenades. I posted the YouTube link. Try checking it out.

I did. It was a heavily edited video where all the violence shown was help workers beating defenceless soldiers. One would imagine some shots must have been fired too since nine people died though. Kind of weird that there's no showing of those in the video, don't you think? As a matter of fact, no, you don't think.

 

As I said, pointless. If you can't even spot obvious propaganda, then why do you bother responding? All you can contribute with is nonsense.

[mkreku]

"not what's being reported in Swedish newspapers. And in this case I choose to believe my local sources."

 

Hilarious.

In what way?

 

You do realize that every news reporter in the world is getting their stories from the same sources, right? The only difference is how much they edit out of the original piece and how much spin they add to it.

 

In Sweden, they chose to report about how little of the actual aid that got through. In the US, that fact seems to have been edited out. Also, the Swedish help workers who were on the ships have been interviewed the last couple of days and are telling a very different tale than what Israel has been telling.

[Moose]

Apparently they have an over supply of Mars bars in Gaza, forcing shopkeepers to drop prices.

 

They must really hate Mars bars.

[Zoraptor]

Er, you do realize that there probably wasn't 120 trucks available to deliver the entire cargo of all six trucks at once, right? You just presume that Israel "stole" the rest of it without the slightest evidence for your allegation, then make a snide remark to me??

It's already been pointed out (and ignored) that it's Israel's stated policy to seize anything on its (unpublished) list of banned items. That reverses the burden of proof so you need to prove that stuff hasn't been seized, not the reverse.

 

Oh yeah, seizing undeclared "prohibited" goods is actually stealing too, and he is right describing it as such. Because in a blockade anything not specifically declared as being illegal is a "free good" and cannot be legitimately seized. Relevant San Remo section(s) follow:

 

"149. In order to exercise the right of capture referred to in paragraphs 146(a) and 147, the belligerent must have published contraband lists. The precise nature of a belligerent's contraband list may vary according to the particular circumstances of the armed conflict. Contraband lists shall be reasonably specific.

 

150. Goods not on the belligerent's contraband list are 'free goods', that is, not subject to capture.."

 

You also realize that Israel provides more than 2 million tons of food, fuel and supplies to Gaza annually, at its own expense.

It is Israel's absolute obligation to do so- not to do so would be a war crime both under collective punishment and deliberate targeting of civilians provisions- I can give you a ref and direct quote for this too, if you'd like.

 

It is not something done out of the goodness of their heart, they are absolutely obligated to do it.

 

And much as some earlier in the thread may think an 18 month camping sojourn is a fun, life affirming jaunt in the fresh air and above all a humanitarian experience, the supplies Israel sends are the absolute and bare minimum they can get away with.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Zoraptor

[Walsingham]

I've got a question that has been on my mind for while. I know collective punishment is not OK, but isn't war itself a form of collective punishment?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, all wars should be banned. UN will get right on this.

[Calax]

Yes, all wars should be banned. UN will get right on this.

This won't happen until we have a foreign threat to deal with. Like Aliens, or zombies..