Tale Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) ANybody who didn't understand the gameplay mechanics of Deus Ex or found them overwhelming is an idiot. It wasn't rocket science. Sure, if you had never played a game before, maybe you'd have to read a manual and spend some time getting used to everything. But games are now being designed with the goal of the stupidest person on the planet finding it copmpletely accessible without even reading the directions. WHen you lower your sights to that level, you're going to turn out mediocre drivel. At best. ANd probably not even that. Utter nonse. Deus Ex isn't particularly more complex than many games released nowadays. Most things people call "dumbing down" are either simply attempts to work a game around a less versatile controller or make action aspects more engaging. Unless you think inventory tetris or having to put skill points in guns is smart, Deus Ex isn't any more demanding than Bioshock. Nobody's lowering their sights anywhere near what you claim. Edited November 10, 2010 by Tale "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Slowtrain Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 ANybody who didn't understand the gameplay mechanics of Deus Ex or found them overwhelming is an idiot. It wasn't rocket science. Sure, if you had never played a game before, maybe you'd have to read a manual and spend some time getting used to everything. But games are now being designed with the goal of the stupidest person on the planet finding it copmpletely accessible without even reading the directions. WHen you lower your sights to that level, you're going to turn out mediocre drivel. At best. ANd probably not even that. Utter nonse. Deus Ex isn't particularly more complex than many games released nowadays. Well, apparently it is, acording to the DX3 developers. Most things people call "dumbing down" are either simply attempts to work a game around a less versatile controller or make action aspects more engaging. Unless you think inventory tetris or having to put skill points in guns is smart, Deus Ex isn't any more demanding than Bioshock.. I think its somewhat more complex than Bioshock. Just as SS2 was more complex than Bioshock. Nobody's lowering their sights anywhere near what you claim. Developers at Bethesda explained that they had to simplify Oblivion drastically over MW, includign the little compass, because apparently a good number of gamers quit playing because they couldn';t figure out how to get from Seyda Neen to Balmora for the first step of the main quest. Sights have been lowered dramatically. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Tale Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 The compass arrow is only a lowering of sights if you're making assumptions about what the sights were to begin with. I don't suspect it was ever an intended bar to entry. Games do need a way of guiding players to their destination, can't always rely on memory, and simply giving directions isn't always workable in games that emphasize off the beaten path. A simple icon is a very elegant solution. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Slowtrain Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) The compass arrow is only a lowering of sights if you're making assumptions about what the sights were to begin with. I don't suspect it was ever an intended bar to entry. Games do need a way of guiding players to their destination, can't always rely on memory, and simply giving directions isn't always workable in games that emphasize off the beaten path. A simple icon is a very elegant solution. *shrug* I'm just going by what I recall the developers saying when responding to why Oblivion was so dumbed down from MW. On a larger scale, I think the desire to sell as many games as possible is so overwhelming that the current design paradigm for many titles is to make them capable of being played without requiring a single iota of thought or learning. It's the absolute epitome of Lowest Common Denominator programming. ANd nothing very interesting usually comes out of that. Edited November 10, 2010 by Slowtrain Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Malcador Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 Weird to say that about a quest, you can log the text, write it decently well and ta-da, the player has enough to figure out what to do, the world is static usually. An arrow seems like laziness on both sides When I hear making action more engaging, I think of Vegas and Dragon Rising, hah. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Wrath of Dagon Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 I don't understand why anyone thinks running around in circles looking for a vaguely described location is fun game play. "The bandits are SE of town" Two hours later, under constant attack from the air, "The hell with this game" "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Tale Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) Weird to say that about a quest, you can log the text, write it decently well and ta-da, the player has enough to figure out what to do, the world is static usually. None of which actually explains how you properly tell a player how to get to a destination. Do you give them compass directions from the quest giver? Directions from Seyda Neen to Balmora aren't all that useful if the player has been playing over in Sadrith Mora for a month of real time. Edited November 10, 2010 by Tale "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Thorton_AP Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 Sure:"Your making games that are less complex than they once were simply so they can be understood by people who drool on themslves when they talk" Guy's casually dismissing these people as being stupid and drooling morons because they don't like the games that he does. Might as well be sitting on a chair with his legs crossed, wearing a monocle, while drinking some Cognac as he makes this statement. If anyone wishes to assert his intellectual superiority based upon what types of games he prefers to play, then he's being elitist as far as I'm concerned. Sounds mostly like sour grapes to me. ANybody who didn't understand the gameplay mechanics of Deus Ex or found them overwhelming is an idiot. It wasn't rocket science. Anybody that spouts off stupid stuff like this is an idiot too, because I have no problems stating that your statement is fallacious and stupid. It's too bad you're butthurt because the game doesn't appeal to you. Grow up and move on. Or find a hobby that actually appeals to you then. Sour grapes are sour. You're pissed off because you'd like the game to be something different, and you're projecting your anger on the target audience because you're acting like a juvenile. As virumor said: Gaming has nothing to do with whether or not someone is smart. You even agree to this, but still feel compelled to insult the intelligence of gamers that didn't enjoy Deus Ex's gameplay by implying they are imbeciles that drool on themselves when they talk. Either you genuinely believe this (which is stupid and you've already stated you don't), or you've decided to act several IQ points below what you could be behaving like because you're bitter.
Malcador Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) Never played the game in question, but given a map the player can see himself and his orientation (or a compass display) you can describe whereabouts they can find the objective no ? Anybody that spouts off stupid stuff like this is an idiot too, because I have no problems stating that your statement is fallacious and stupid. It's too bad you're butthurt because the game doesn't appeal to you. Grow up and move on. Or find a hobby that actually appeals to you then. Sour grapes are sour. You're pissed off because you'd like the game to be something different, and you're projecting your anger on the target audience because you're acting like a juvenile. As virumor said: Gaming has nothing to do with whether or not someone is smart. You even agree to this, but still feel compelled to insult the intelligence of gamers that didn't enjoy Deus Ex's gameplay by implying they are imbeciles that drool on themselves when they talk. Either you genuinely believe this (which is stupid and you've already stated you don't), or you've decided to act several IQ points below what you could be behaving like because you're bitter. And you're claiming he's butthurt and acting bitter ? Heh, nice. If you gave up because you found DX too hard (how one could?...I've no farking clue), while I'm not sure one could say you're stupid, but that's pretty sad in any case to just toss your toys out. Edited November 10, 2010 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Thorton_AP Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) They want their super complex game to still have the same complex art, cinematics, and graphics of the other games. Since when are good graphics and good gameplay mutually exclusive? Newsflash: they're not. Flawed argument. They aren't mutually exclusive, and I never said they are. But it gets expensive. Once things get expensive then quantity of sales becomes more important. Point missed. So your point is actually rather invalid since chess is not an overly complex game. Way to miss the point. I chose chess because, yes, it is a pretty simple game, yet it would be possible to "streamline" it. Get it? This is what streamlining means! You take something that wasn't overly complicated from the beginning and enjoyed by many, then streamline it further to catch those people who think Fable's one button combat is the height of accessibility. In the process you ruin the experience for the people who now think chess has become Halo. It is not elitist to think the original chess was better than the console generation chess now, is it? Wait what.... I just want to make sure I'm clear here: you think that in order for a game to be "streamlined" it must have been a game system that was already not overly complicated? Edited November 10, 2010 by Thorton_AP
WorstUsernameEver Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 Morrowind was pretty good about it, but I admit, I sometimes had difficulties finding locations because.. well, I have difficulties in real life too. That said, Oblivion and its successors (including, yeah, New Vegas) abused the quest markers in my opinion.
HoonDing Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) People forget that Morrowind came with a huge, very detailed map of the game world that included 90% of in-game locations. There's really no excuse for not finding a way from Seyda Neen to Balmora, even if you don't talk to the scout who gives you a scrap of paper with detailed directions. Not to mention, you can buy two scrolls of Almsivi Intervention that immediately teleport you to the temple in Balmora. Oh, and there's even a silt strider just outside town. Edited November 10, 2010 by virumor The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Slowtrain Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 but still feel compelled to insult the intelligence of gamers that didn't enjoy Deus Ex's gameplay Enjoyment has nothing to do with it. IF somebody isn't interested in playing Deus Ex, that's aok. If someone gives DX an honest shot and finds it dull and boring that's fine. I have no interest in dictating to people what they should or should not enjoy. My issue is strictly with the idea that games aren't dumbed down to appeal to a larger audience, now vs 10 years ago. Of course they are. It's the economics of the current business model for the industry. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
RPGmasterBoo Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 I fail to follow what the dispute is about that Imperium Thought for the Day: Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life
Slowtrain Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 I fail to follow what the dispute is about that I dunno. It seems so obvious. And the developers admit it for the most part. IIRC, Josh himself even made some reference to hardcore gamers being generally more tolerant of simplification and lack of difficulty than casual/mass gamers are of complexity and difficulty, so it makes more financial sense to court the gamer who likes things simple and easy than it does to court the gamer who likes things complex and difficult. I'm paraphrasing his comment obviosuly, but iirc that was the jist of it. It just bugs me that in the name of pr spin, developers and publishers refer to it as streamlining rather than dumbing down. Just be honest and call it what it is. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
RPGmasterBoo Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 I don't even see the point of disputing that, is someone actually claiming the opposite Imperium Thought for the Day: Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life
Wrath of Dagon Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 It just bugs me that in the name of pr spin, developers and publishers refer to it as streamlining rather than dumbing down. Just be honest and call it what it is. You actually expect developers and publishers to call their audience dumb? "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Malcador Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 In an ideal world, yep. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Nepenthe Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 You guys aren't exactly supporting your argument for your own superiority with the contribution to the back and forth here. Jus' throwin' that out there... You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions
entrerix Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) it's a bit like a petulant child. everyone knows stuff gets dumbed down nowadays, this is a long ongoing trend. no one who has been playing games for 20+ years is disputing the fact. But demanding that developers must insult their casual buyers is just silly. if you walk into The Transporter 3, do you demand that jason statham walk onscreen before the movie starts and say "all you people who bought tickets to this dumb movie are retards, go home and watch yojimbo" ? Edited November 10, 2010 by entrerix Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Malcador Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) You guys aren't exactly supporting your argument for your own superiority with the contribution to the back and forth here. Jus' throwin' that out there... Was anyone arguing about their own superiority, though ? Although it would be amusing to me to see a developer say that he's making his games easier for the impatient Another interview with Dugas, audio this time, sheds a bit more info. http://www.platformnation.com/2010/11/10/d...francois-dugas/ Edited November 10, 2010 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Hell Kitty Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 Unless you think inventory tetris or having to put skill points in guns is smart, Deus Ex isn't any more demanding than Bioshock. I love inventory tetris, but that's because I "get" it, unlike the ignorant masses who don't understand the complexities of putting things into a box and who spend all day drooling on themselves. If they spent their money on an education instead of a constant supply of paper towel they'd be smart enough to appreciate it half as much as an intelligent fellow like myself.
Slowtrain Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I love inventory tetris, but that's because I "get" it, unlike the ignorant masses who don't understand the complexities of putting things into a box and who spend all day drooling on themselves. If they spent their money on an education instead of a constant supply of paper towel they'd be smart enough to appreciate it half as much as an intelligent fellow like myself. I've missed you. This place just isn't the same without you kicking me around. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Slowtrain Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 if you walk into The Transporter 3, do you demand that jason statham walk onscreen before the movie starts and say "all you people who bought tickets to this dumb movie are retards, go home and watch yojimbo" ? The honesty would be refreshing. But specifically in that case, movies aren't something I pay much, if any, attention to really so I don't really care one way or the other. I only have so much elitism to spend. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Hell Kitty Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I love inventory tetris, but that's because I "get" it, unlike the ignorant masses who don't understand the complexities of putting things into a box and who spend all day drooling on themselves. If they spent their money on an education instead of a constant supply of paper towel they'd be smart enough to appreciate it half as much as an intelligent fellow like myself. I've missed you. This place just isn't the same without you kicking me around. If everyone else on the planet was half as smart as the two of us we'd all be enjoying first person games with control systems like Trespasser. Sure, picking up and carrying an item is about a billion times more complex and annoying than real life, but just because reality has been dumbed down for the masses doesn't mean our games have to be.
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